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[Sharif H]

Managed to find this clip though Hock's CQC dispatches. Thanks Hock. Man, this Larsen fella is really spreading this sport fighting through-out the US army by the looks of it. Scary to think there are those who honestly believe this resembles real combat in the field or on the street.

There really should be an SFC guy teaching the army. I remember when Nick Hughes came close to landing that gig at fort Bragg...

http://mfile.akamai.com/21772/wmv/gannett.download.akamai.com/21772/streaming/wmv/111306combatives.asx

Sharif

[Milldog1776]

You've gotta be shittin' me!!!!!!!!!!!!

This is absolutely retarded! This Larson guy needs a big dose of Reality.

[JimH]

As I have said on this forum and many others,this is not Military Combatives,this is sport.
Also
Larsen never hid the fact of what he wanted from this program,he wanted the Army to be able to train,employ,use and produce UFC type competitors,this is what they have done,under the False Banner of Combatives.

What was a one day event has Now Grown into a four day event,soon to be longer as the competitors lists get longer and longer each year.

Soon though this program will either be eliminated or put in as a sport for a recruiting tool and an actual combatives program will be taught.

It would have been nice to see Nicks Program get in.

[usks1]

Is this really much different from the Police games with boxing and Karate?

Of course you can't simulate the type of combatives these guys will face in the real world... But it is a competition. It is labeled as such, so why all the worry?

At least they are cracking heads and developing the warrior spirit... It could be a grapple only, or a point style karate match..

Key word is "Tournament"..... Anybody really think this would consist of anything more than what can be safely done on a Saturday and get back to work on Monday??

Reel back in the safety nets fellas.... It is just a way to test yourself on a Saturday afternoon..

Dean.

[JimH]

It should say "US Army UFC tournament" or "US Army MMA Tournament",not  "US Army Combatives tournament".

When I see a sign that says "Ranger Competiton",I expect to see Rangers and or People doing Army Ranger skills.

(If I see Army Combatives Tournament I want to see Army Combatives, I expect to see what goes on in the Pits for the Rangers and Special Forces,H2h That resembles Battlefield combatives with and without weapons,in a uniform and maybe some gear)

Simulate various room entries with attacking enemies and handling them with H2H.

If I see a Tournament that says"Police Games" I expect games.

If I see a sign that says "SWAT tournament" I expect to see SWAT styled competition,not SWAT guys boxing.

Larsens goal was to get an Army wide MMA/UFC styled event so they can get people into UFC competitions,and he has succeeded at that goal,but he has not pushed his FULL combatives program and people in Combat Zones have this crap to rely on as their H2H.

This was said to be the first phase,the introduction to fighting,to instill aggressiveness for combat,build self confidence and unit cohesion,most only get this phase and it is combat USELESS.

When a Recruit and or Infantry soldier is told to use this CRAP to Hold down the enemy until help arrives,then we are headed in the WRONG direction.

Sorry,I was in the Military before the idea of SPORT replaced the Idea of staying alive on the Battlefield as Combatives.

I have read all of Larsens articles,read and seen his interviews and I have seen the FULL program,too bad it all stopped at phase one for most except the instructors.

[usks1]

Jim,
After further review, I gotta agree with you. It should not be named "Combatives"..

I think the idea of competition and bringing out the spirit to fight on thru competition, like teaching boxing to recruits is a good idea. It conditions the will to fight on, and not give up.

But..... This was a MMA type competition and should have not been labled "Combatives"..

Good point..

Dean.

[410indashade]

It reeks!  We, and by that I mean the US of A are getting farther and farther away from training our military how to kill.  I saw it first in the Air Force in the 60's and after Vietnam in the 70's and 80's there was a brief resurgence in the elite infantry forces such as paras, marines and rangers but the only consistantly trained-to-kill groups are still the Spec. Ops. community.  All others branches and divisions of the military are being trained as policemen if they get any training in non-negotiable force at all!  This all got much worse in the Clinton Administration, due especially to Hilary's devotion to the long discredited politcal philosophy of Mommism if you care to read more about it check out Philip Wylie's "A Generation Of Vipers."   

[whitewolf]

Hello from Kuwait-interesting to read about the Army training program-I am curious how come the
Army just  does not go to one standard training program like the USMC?(Marine Corps Martial Arts
Program.)

When I was in Clarksville TN  I visited the base a  lot and saw that many units were teaching their
own brand of H2H-this was couple years ago=hope this has been standardized by now.

I was luckly enough  to observe some training at the 5th Group SF gym-but their training was not
being passed out to the regular troops

Now I am in Kuwait and go to Arijn base a  lot-I dont see any training at  all by the units-mostly
just  exersising and running-

Couple years ago I went to a   reunion of us old  guys (former USMC ) and we watched training
outside the various barracks of the marines-I saw h2h training in progress by male/female
marines-i was given a  tour  by the operations officer of one of the units and briefed on the
training program--hope it  stilll is  in effect..

Last comment-when on the ground in a fight watch out for the 4 B's
                   biting-bleeding - butting-buddies (his)

saw that somewhere-stay  safe-whitewolf

[NathanT]

Good stuff all (the comments). This does fit within the mindset being promulgated in the military, as another commenter mentioned - soldiers as cops, rather than soldiers.

The Army "combatives" program has already been exposed for what it is, BJJ with a pugil and bayonet component, but not what you'd want/expect on a battlefield. The question is why?

Does the Army believe that the competition/sport aspect of the new combatives actually prepares a soldier for combat, or as they say, builds the "warrior spirit?" Or do they actually think it prepares the Army to detain subjects in a civilian/urban environment? I don't think it's adequate for both.

I've read through two previous Army manuals, have copies of the last two USMC manuals, and there is a substantial difference between all of them and the current Army program. I think it actually fits what most soldiers may be doing, but not what they need. Sad.

[Bri Thai]

Just how many times we can the same people say the same things in the same debate without getting bored?

[whitewolf]

Bri Thi-personally i dont get  bored reading items from all types of h2h instructors-the idea as i see it is to pass on info so we can get latest briefs on various aspects of h2h-where i am in the world a group of us meet every month and pass on "intel" that may save a  life-my partner and i discuss h2h before every class that we teach-enough said------lets keep up the replies on any subject unless the modirator closes the subject/ stay safe-whitewolf

[Kentbob]

Yeah, there's a combatives tournament, and yes, it has less to do with actual combatives than it does MMA.  I talked to a guy who "fights for the Army" in the gym the other day.  I just didn't have the heart to tell him he knows as much about fighting on the battlefield as I do about cross-stitch.  He's an instructor in the combatives school, too, which makes me sick.  But no one wants to listen to me.

Kent

[whitewolf]

Kent-i know  what  you  mean-I get into discussions  all the time over  here-I guess one  has  to  have been under  fire to  understand the meaning of  reality type training-"Fire" can be any type action that causes one to get keyed up and your adrenalyn going and you then respond by "action rather than
"reaction"-i am  looking  forward to  more posts on what is going on as  far  as real type training. My buddy and I have a small "martial arts school here in Kuwaot and hope to expand  it-we teach some
movements from the ground but they are taught to get out of the situation and  not  roll around untill
the ref appears majically and breaks it  up-One time in a   discussion back in the states a MMA type who  never had  been  in a  fight outside of the ring really   got  upset that a  few  of  us  told  him
that it  is a little different  out  there. Here is a true story concerning the real  world- A 5th SF type
had  just  returned from Afganistan and told us the following-He entered a room and a "Bad guy"
was inside-the bad guy turned and was holding aAK and was about to fire-the SF blocked the barrel
and drilled him with a right cross to the head  knocking out the guy and overpowering him.The point is
he  had  practised that movement in the school  over  and over-no going to the floor and  rolling around and hoping he  could arm  bar/choke the opponent  out etc  etc..This SF came home......
He is a quiet person who you  never  would  know had  this type  training if you saw  him  in public.
I know  there a  lot of similar  stories out there-take  care and stay  safe-whitewolf

[Sharif H]

What I don't understand is, how can all these folks take part in the tourney, believing that it is reall-life combatives without asking the fundamental question... "why isn't anybody dead?"

I mean, if they are hoping to take out real threats in the field using this UC then surely when they go all-out and use the same techniques in the ring, the losers would be taken out in bodybags.

As mentioned many times before in the MMA vs CQC debate, the few moves that are against the rules for the tournament (and indeed in their over all training) are the first things I'd be doing if I got attacked on the street. No eye gouges, throat strikes or groin attacks? Maybe for you buddy but not me.

Sharif

[JimH]

Try rolling around in Gear instead of open BDU's or shorts.

The guys and Gals doing House to House are working out doable combatives,not this crap.

You read a stpry here of an SF guy, and others ,using simple ,easy techniques,to stay alive and none go to the ground ,then you see this MMA/combatives and all these sports people pushing it.

Open up Black Belt and see a former Ranger,current SF Sgt doing and telling you that this is what is used in combat,by them.(BS)

It is sport plain and simple, and the UFC,which was created to highlight BJJ,showed what is to be the Greatest ,most versitile art in the world,beating all others,so it is an easy sell to arm chair warrior Commanders sitting in an office.

The truth is what number of people on a Battlefield or on the street want to take a life and death fight to the ground,roll and pin?
None

This is just an exchange of ideas,what one decides to use in their goal is up to them,but they need all facts involved to make an educated choice,most believe what they see and hear on TV or in print,differing views allow a better choice.