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[Hock]

in my understanding, the karambit is a Filipino fishing knife, essentially designed to "gut" a fish, which is exactly what the knife excels at, but it doesn’t need to be a knife, and in that regard,

Could be, unless you reread your own last line, saying that the it is superior/inferior is based on the ability/creativity of the user.  This suggests that a person should waste their time on an obviously limited tool and do extra work to try to make it work, AND in the case of combat not fishing - for life and death combat situations.

Gutting the enemy. But what kind of enemy are we gutting?
Think of a hooked knife fighting the enemy wrapped in the many folds of "bed sheet" clothing.
Think of the enemy with a bandoleer of ammo across his chest.
Think of the enemy in a simple, modern military uniform.
Think of the enemy in the northern hemispheres, half the year in winter jackets, over a sweater or sweatshirt.
Think of how you would love to also be able to ALSO stab this enemy in any fight.
People without lanyards loose their knives in combat. The hook catches the body, or clothing, or gear of enemy, and the knife possible coming loose form your. A straight knife will just slash through, uncaught and unhooked.

Think of the hooked end of the karembit and how limited stabbing is. The karambit severely limits stabbing, an essential, natural, reflexive, key knife technique, in reverse or saber grip. Take anyone's knife course and try running the karembit through it. Way too much, simple, vital material cannot be done because of that near-useless blade hook.  Then slashes become inhibited because the hook gets stuck in people and clothing and gear such as uniforms. Even a karembit pocket knife cannot do half the everyday chores a straight pocket knife one can.

Even the curved swords of the cavalries of the world? The tip is curved away from the enemy, because they knew the hook, would hook into their enemy and end their slash.
 
IMHO, I believe the karambit lends a bit more to controlling [the attacker] than the average straight single edged knife

Actually a simple reverse grip does much of that already, and this mutli-use straight tool, can then do much more with a hand grip change. Hoping to control an attacker is a fun plan, that can be executed with a straight knife too and then that straight tool can also be used for all the other things that straight knives can do. Controlling an angry, explosive opponent in full fight-motion with a knife is very much a fun, dojo concept. And even with that being a limited possibility, I would never select a knife just on the priority of controlling a person, least of all silly curved one I can't hardly stab with .
 
as far as comparing something to another thing, the only thing that makes it superior/inferior is the ability/creativity of the user, so that conversation is ALWAYS moot in my eyes

WHAT! That is ALWAYS moot?
I sure hope you are not a procurement officer in the army, or a police department. The invention of tools is not about making tools that require extra work, extra creativity and extra training to function, when so much easier and simpler designs work better and are versatile. That is not a moot point. That is the essence of invention, science, architecture, medicine...Before I list a million tools, products and gear...

A Jell-O doorknob.
A hammer with a tiny, round, head.
A square baseball.
A sledge hammer with a thin pipe handle.
A single action revolver.
A curved baseball bat .
A rifle with sights that are off  (superior creativity will make me aim off to the left)
A phillips head screwdriver on a flathead screw.
A weak flashlight
Curved auto mechanic tools. All your screwdrives and wrenches are curved.

None of the above have moot issues. Yes, all can be overcome with extra, creative, unnecessary training and extra work. Why bother?  Proper design fixes and maximizes every one of them. There is nothing moot about the natural selection process of smarter tools for jobs. Working and training harder to make an inferior tool function is a waste of time, and a danger in combat.

What has happened iwith this curved tool karembit s people have made a prejudiced, market-place choice on something that to them, looks cool, or relates to an exotic martial art or some odd idea they have in their mind. This type of selection is not proper in combatives.

AND...LEAST of which, try defending yourself with a wicked-looking, curved knife in an actual fight. The police and prosecutors and juries love to see these Klingon wicked, knives in court. Of course then, will take a superior, creative lawyer to overcome that point. More work, more effort. More money, more, more...Waste of time.

The karembit is a lose-lose situation.  Unless you fish? (and even then, lots of fisherman perfer their straight knives)

Open trash can.
Deposit unpractical tool.

Hock

other thread on topic...
http://hockscombatforum.com/index.php/topic,2363.0.html

[Bryan Lee]

 

Hock, great post on the Karambit, heres a little more on the subject,b.

   One has to admit the Karambit has a cool factor and thats what is getting marketed and hyped. I think everyone has viewed the videos of the things getting flipped around and spun on the finger similar to a butterfly knife. The very same people who are promoting this kind of flip cutting are for the most part FMA background folks yet the Karambit is actually a fruit tree pruning knife from Indonesia. You will find almost all the curved blade knives from Southeast Asia are farming tools.

  So how does FMA fit into this, thats easy, its all about grip and weapon retention. One of the most basic FMA principles in Arnis is a strong grip and the exploitation of a weekly gripped stick or knife. Flipping around a Karambit completely goes against this most basic and simple principle which is a foundation of fighting with any hand held weapons, Do Not Drop, Do Not Get Slapped Out Of Hand.

In the Karambits original function the ring for extending it or positioning it for a cut was not a factor because it was a utility knife. Somewhere it was used because thats the tool someone had during a fight and the rest is history, you could say its the wheel reinvented, thats what many knives are. All wheels and tires must go both forward and backwards and so must any proper combat knife. Any blade designed for a fast forward cut will be equally slower on a backwards cut  and only making forward cuts removes speed and strength during said cut. This sounds complicated but its very simple and I could show it in about a minute, typing it is a little more difficult.

  The biggest issue is the extreme flipping around as a method, I tend to twirl things around in my fingers and I'm fairly good at it but I would never suggest anyone do it with a weapon during a fight. For me the secondary issue is the loss of the back cut but it is a very important issue. My simple conclusion is this, if thats what you have and you need a weapon it can be deadly but it remains a poor choice for a primary edged weapon. Besides if you take away the fancy flipping you can buy the same thing at every hardware store in America, we call it a carpet knife.





 

[Hock]

I just thought I would add this note here.
Something have noticed these last few months.

I have run across some karembit well...fanatics these last few months in seminars. During the knife segments they innocently and happily produce their severely curved knives, as if they can do anything with these limited shapes.

As I taught some ultra simple applications of the straight knife, the curved knife guys have been flustered, trying to make the simple work with the handicapped curved blade and therefore complicating the simple.

Then in recent conversations I learned a few points from these guys. One blurted out that they had never seen a straight knife work and do the things that I had shown! Oh? What? I mean this was the most simple, obvious tricks like stabbing and then pumping and twisting the blade, and a few other tricks.

It took a guy, (a student of a somewhat famous Filipino instructor) looking me dead in the eye and telling me this before I realized this. He said, "I never knew you could do those thing with a regular knife!"

I began to note that the many of the karembit fanatics had almost zero straight blade training, to be more specific some GOOD straight blade training. Some of the guys were Filipino trained by karembit-only teachers, brainwashed from the start that the karembit was a superior weapon. Actually, they never said it was superior, they just never did anything with straight knives. 

Which surprised me, but shouldn't. Anyone making a scientific comparison between say, a straight, simple commando knife and any curved karembit, could see that the commando knife has many, many more and simple applications. But I made the false assumption that the teachers and students of the karembit, were sufficiently trained with a conventional knife and all were making a conscious, educated choice for the curve!

Maybe not always? And maybe the practicality is overwhelmed by the flavored, coolness of an exotic-shaped weapon?


Hock

[Kaliman33]

I was also taught that in Indonesia this is thier last ditch weapon, sword/stick failed, regular knife failed, empty hands are failing, pull the karambit, also lots of women carry it, hidden in the sarong

marc

[whitewolf]

After reading the posts on the Karambit I went to you tube and found a vidio made by a instructor named Luke- he discribed some uses  of the weapon- vidio  is called "How to use a Karambit-raw knife fighting- " he showed some basic strikes that are pretty wicked when used by a person who  has practised with the weapon.
WW (ELB)

[Hock]

Well, you know...it is a knife. All knives are wicked.

Now that we have established wicked factor, a veteran next establishes simplicity and practicality in the field and in combat. Where the karembit looses the performance test and the common sense test.

(as as aside, the hooked slash can get caught up in the skeleton and and layers of clothing. Wicked looking in play practice slashing.)

_____---________---_________--________

And another point on this now as I think about it. Some of these younger guys immediately associated the hole/ring in the handle as a karembit definition. In fact Ryan from NC was asking us here where he might find some karembit knives for sale awhile back. To my surprise It was a straight blade! With a hole in the handle for you to slip a finger through. The hols made it a karembit?

The hole in the handle does not make any knife a karambit. The certain curved blade, with or without a handle hole, makes the karembit.


Hock 

[Naso Karas]

Well...you all know how I feel about the odd-shaped knives and other "Klingon" Knives....

When God made the knife, he made it straight to maximize its full potential.

"Hochheim System Karembit Training instructions"

  1) Take karembit.

   2) Walk to nearest trash can.

    3) Lift Lid

     4) Deposit curved bladed knife.

      5) Close lid.

       6) Try to forget about this little gimmick knife and its, "you do have-to-train-
            and-work-extra-to-use," curved knife....

        7) Make personal promise never to fall for knife fads and other shallow
             forms of knife advertising.


Basically for every one thing you can do with a karembit? You can do 6 or more things, better and easier...with a regular, straight knife.

Now if you will excuse me? I am off to the drugstore to buy the new curved condom. You see, I heard that with these newer curved condoms, you can....

Hock
 

I gotta agree with Hock on this one!  I've tried Combat Scenarios in HIGH GEAR with Kerambits and haven't had much, if any success.

[Sun_Helmet]

I would second the above....the man to go to is Ray Dianaldo.  Do a you tube search and you can find the clips.  None better when it comes to the Kerambit.

I'm not a fan myself either...it's a glorified carpet knife as far as I'm concerned but Ray feels exactly the opposite and is unbelievable to watch when wielding it, or any blade.

Nick

I am not a karambit guy myself, but I would recommend Ray Dionaldo as well. He was studying it way before it became the cool thing to do.

The plus is that Ray is exceptional with just about every weapon he picks up therefore he understands the karambit's limits. If one wanted to learn how to use one from someone with a vast knowledge and skill with various edged, flexible and impact weapons -- he is one of the few to look to.

To Ray, the karambit is just another edged weapon and he keeps the cultural aspects alive. It also keeps the wannabe karambit/kerembit/kerambit experts in check.

--Rafael--

[Hock]

I think so too. Ray is a good guy and really loves the material.

But folks have to be careful, because I have run across "Karembit students," so innocent and naive that have NEVER trained with the simple, straight knife! And are blind to it.

To my surpise it is as though they have never even buttered bread with a straight knife? Some of the simplest things (and best) with a straight knife, they have never seen or never done. Some are easliy mislead into thinking that the curved knife is superior and the only way to go.

Whether or not the instructors have properly explained this in context, the big picture, or whether attendees just zoned out or missed that explanation part, I don't know.

Hock