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[the spaniard]

Hi friends,
i've had a quick search and didn't find many posts on it.
There are no people in Spain that make them (as far as i know) so i'm a novice on them.
What's your take on them (which is better,pro&cons,different models and which are the best way to use them).
Thanks.

[Sharif H]

I seem to remember Hock telling us about how Remy Presas used to carry a short metal pipe hidden in a rolled up newspaper. He'd use it much like a blackjack.
I don't remember the details.

Hock.....?

[loyalonehk]

There are no people in Spain that make them (as far as i know)

Gotta love NC, USA.  They sell em in the local Mall here... 

I have not looked into them, but the next time I am at the mall (dont hold your  breath  ) I will look at them and talk to the store owner about them.  For now if worst comes to worst, put a rock and/or some sand in an old black sock.

Good luck,

[Nick Hughes]

I was watching that clip with the big black con in the pizza shop when he belts the guy who'd gone off on his girlfriend for cutting in the line and spitting on everyone.

There was a lot of talk at the time from the gun crowd about shooting him which was a bs response.  Number one he wasn't killing anyone so you couldn't justify use of deadly force; two, it was crowded so no saying you wouldn't hit someone else running into the line of fire accidentally;  three, what was the backdrop?  i.e. there were cars driving past outside...if your round missed and you hit someone in one of them then good luck...you'll be going away for a long while.

Punching the behemoth for the average person, given he looked to weigh about 310 pounds, probably wouldn't have been viable especially considering if you didn't get a one shot knockout, that you'd be fighting the c**t he was with next.  We also don't know that they didn't get out of a car containing four more of his friends which, if the fight became prolonged, would be a total bitch to deal with.

I started thinking about less than lethal weapons that would be (almost always) guaranteed to give you a one shot knockout on that buffoon.  They'd have to be concealable which rules out baseball bats, nunchakus, nightsticks etc.  They'd need to be surgical i.e. CS would get everyone in the store, including you to some degree or another, and they'd need to be comfortable to carry.

The only thing I could come up with that would fit the bill was the inimitable leather sap as carried by the old time cops.  (did they know something we didn't?)  It's discreet, slips in a pocket, can be concealed in the palm of the hand so it looks like the recipient was slapped and doesn't cost a fortune (mine was ten bucks at the gun show) so disposing of it later isn't going to cause you to cry. 

With two quick swipes you could have knocked a big dose of sleep into him and his ugly arse girlfriend, grabbed your pizza and been off out the door like a rat up a drainpipe.

Perfect choice.

Nick

[Nick Hughes]

Oh Spaniard,

You could get any shoemaker worth his salt to whip you up one.

Apart from the improvised one that Dean mentions a slightly more robust method is to take a bycycle inner tube, cut about fourteen inches of it, knot one end, fill it with either sand or lead pellets (shotgun pellets) then knot the other end.  Voila, instant sap.

Nick

[grlaun]

And that, gentle readers, may tell you that Nick may have experience....

[Nick Hughes]

   I'm pleading the fifth...

Nick

[410indashade]

Lead shot are used in saps because saps are designed to be less damaging and therefore less effective than the blackjack or kosh as it's known in England.  You can make an improvised blackjack out of nine or ten inches or 1 inch diameter garden hose and a single ballbearing of the same diameter.  First, split the hose at one end with a sharp knife for approximately 3 inches.  Second, obtain a ballbearing of suitable size and weight and insert it into the split about half-way. Third, wire or tie the split closed being careful to get both behind and in front of the steel ball tight up against the ball.  Finally, wrap the whole thing with at least one layer of duct or electrician's tape.   

[the spaniard]

Thanks for your answers.
I've ordered a sap and a blackjack from the States and i love them!!
Pretty easy to conceal,work really fine in close quarter situations (even i like telescopic batons sometimes you don't have room to use them) especially in a clinch.
A few years ago i was involved in a situation where (thanks god nothing happened) my friend and me were on a night train.
Some "monkeys" (teenagers without respect) started cousing trouble at the wagon.They were 30 in the same wagon.
Luckily security came and they calmed down but i realised i couldn't use the CS gas i was carrying or the rest of the people at the wagon would suffer the consecuences.
So something like a knuckleduster or a blackjack/sap (or a combination of them ) would have been handy at the time.

[arnold]

The fifth roo? And that's another problem we have, too many saps. Just look around next time you go to Wal Mart ( you know you do). The world's loaded with SAPS ( stupid assinine people suckups) just waiting for another reason to whine and complain about something.
But, back to reality, I have my Dad's old saps that he was issued when he was a NYS trooper back in the 50's. Used them with great results back in the 70's and 80's, long before I started wearing purple.

[the spaniard]

Arnold,what's the best way to use them?
Remember i'm a novice and have heard that with the saps is better to hit with the edge.
After hitting my BOB dummy i tend to go for the chin.

[arnold]

The best way would be repeatedly. Flat or edge, your choice, depending on which one you pick. The position of your hand/wrist will dictate which will deliver the most efficient blow. But use caution when dealing with those down under roo lovers. It has been proven through numerous medical tests that the skull of the above mentioned is a great deal thicker than the average dirtbag on the street. Cosequently, short of hitting them with a bulldozer, it may have little or no effect on them.

[Milldog1776]

I kind of like the big fishing sinker tied to one end of a handkerchief. Very descreet.

[cannibalcombat]

Very devastating weapons.  I have one of each.  PROBLEM -  very illegal in my county - San Diego and illegal in my state CA.  Whether I am justified in its use, I will have legal problems.  It's better to club them in the head with another an everyday item.

Mike

[redcap]

We used to make blackjacks by slipping a new bar of Army issue soap into an Army issue khaki sock and tying a knot in it. This was applied to the back of the ear of anyone in the way when raiding other unit's barracks after lights out.

This thread is interesting to me as I have just launched a new program at my school, C.O.S.H. or Close Order SHort Stick Method.  In other words I am revising the Truncheon. 12 inches of weighted stick (or pipe) with a lanyard or thumbstrap on the end. 

The method has 50 techniques for use in defences against common attacks, weapon retention, escape from holds and grabs and confrontation management (one shot fight stoppers).

I think the reason police now use longer batons is that they took the simple truncheon for granted and stopped training in its use.  So then they started to think they needed something more effective and went for straight batons and then the PR24 and now they have handcuff batons and revolving batons and lawd knows what else.  Yet the truncheon still does a great job in trained and determined hands.

I will post some snippets form our testing sessions to You Tube, plus you can read more about it on my blog, www.stickfighterjourney.blogspot.com  Cheers, Perry I mean Redcap.