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[the spaniard]

Hi friends,
i've had a quick search and didn't find many posts on it.
There are no people in Spain that make them (as far as i know) so i'm a novice on them.
What's your take on them (which is better,pro&cons,different models and which are the best way to use them).
Thanks.

[Sharif H]

I seem to remember Hock telling us about how Remy Presas used to carry a short metal pipe hidden in a rolled up newspaper. He'd use it much like a blackjack.
I don't remember the details.

Hock.....?

[loyalonehk]

There are no people in Spain that make them (as far as i know)

Gotta love NC, USA.  They sell em in the local Mall here... 

I have not looked into them, but the next time I am at the mall (dont hold your  breath  ) I will look at them and talk to the store owner about them.  For now if worst comes to worst, put a rock and/or some sand in an old black sock.

Good luck,

[Nick Hughes]

I was watching that clip with the big black con in the pizza shop when he belts the guy who'd gone off on his girlfriend for cutting in the line and spitting on everyone.

There was a lot of talk at the time from the gun crowd about shooting him which was a bs response.  Number one he wasn't killing anyone so you couldn't justify use of deadly force; two, it was crowded so no saying you wouldn't hit someone else running into the line of fire accidentally;  three, what was the backdrop?  i.e. there were cars driving past outside...if your round missed and you hit someone in one of them then good luck...you'll be going away for a long while.

Punching the behemoth for the average person, given he looked to weigh about 310 pounds, probably wouldn't have been viable especially considering if you didn't get a one shot knockout, that you'd be fighting the c**t he was with next.  We also don't know that they didn't get out of a car containing four more of his friends which, if the fight became prolonged, would be a total bitch to deal with.

I started thinking about less than lethal weapons that would be (almost always) guaranteed to give you a one shot knockout on that buffoon.  They'd have to be concealable which rules out baseball bats, nunchakus, nightsticks etc.  They'd need to be surgical i.e. CS would get everyone in the store, including you to some degree or another, and they'd need to be comfortable to carry.

The only thing I could come up with that would fit the bill was the inimitable leather sap as carried by the old time cops.  (did they know something we didn't?)  It's discreet, slips in a pocket, can be concealed in the palm of the hand so it looks like the recipient was slapped and doesn't cost a fortune (mine was ten bucks at the gun show) so disposing of it later isn't going to cause you to cry. 

With two quick swipes you could have knocked a big dose of sleep into him and his ugly arse girlfriend, grabbed your pizza and been off out the door like a rat up a drainpipe.

Perfect choice.

Nick

[Nick Hughes]

Oh Spaniard,

You could get any shoemaker worth his salt to whip you up one.

Apart from the improvised one that Dean mentions a slightly more robust method is to take a bycycle inner tube, cut about fourteen inches of it, knot one end, fill it with either sand or lead pellets (shotgun pellets) then knot the other end.  Voila, instant sap.

Nick

[grlaun]

And that, gentle readers, may tell you that Nick may have experience....

[Nick Hughes]

   I'm pleading the fifth...

Nick

[410indashade]

Lead shot are used in saps because saps are designed to be less damaging and therefore less effective than the blackjack or kosh as it's known in England.  You can make an improvised blackjack out of nine or ten inches or 1 inch diameter garden hose and a single ballbearing of the same diameter.  First, split the hose at one end with a sharp knife for approximately 3 inches.  Second, obtain a ballbearing of suitable size and weight and insert it into the split about half-way. Third, wire or tie the split closed being careful to get both behind and in front of the steel ball tight up against the ball.  Finally, wrap the whole thing with at least one layer of duct or electrician's tape.   

[the spaniard]

Thanks for your answers.
I've ordered a sap and a blackjack from the States and i love them!!
Pretty easy to conceal,work really fine in close quarter situations (even i like telescopic batons sometimes you don't have room to use them) especially in a clinch.
A few years ago i was involved in a situation where (thanks god nothing happened) my friend and me were on a night train.
Some "monkeys" (teenagers without respect) started cousing trouble at the wagon.They were 30 in the same wagon.
Luckily security came and they calmed down but i realised i couldn't use the CS gas i was carrying or the rest of the people at the wagon would suffer the consecuences.
So something like a knuckleduster or a blackjack/sap (or a combination of them ) would have been handy at the time.

[arnold]

The fifth roo? And that's another problem we have, too many saps. Just look around next time you go to Wal Mart ( you know you do). The world's loaded with SAPS ( stupid assinine people suckups) just waiting for another reason to whine and complain about something.
But, back to reality, I have my Dad's old saps that he was issued when he was a NYS trooper back in the 50's. Used them with great results back in the 70's and 80's, long before I started wearing purple.

[the spaniard]

Arnold,what's the best way to use them?
Remember i'm a novice and have heard that with the saps is better to hit with the edge.
After hitting my BOB dummy i tend to go for the chin.

[arnold]

The best way would be repeatedly. Flat or edge, your choice, depending on which one you pick. The position of your hand/wrist will dictate which will deliver the most efficient blow. But use caution when dealing with those down under roo lovers. It has been proven through numerous medical tests that the skull of the above mentioned is a great deal thicker than the average dirtbag on the street. Cosequently, short of hitting them with a bulldozer, it may have little or no effect on them.

[Milldog1776]

I kind of like the big fishing sinker tied to one end of a handkerchief. Very descreet.

[cannibalcombat]

Very devastating weapons.  I have one of each.  PROBLEM -  very illegal in my county - San Diego and illegal in my state CA.  Whether I am justified in its use, I will have legal problems.  It's better to club them in the head with another an everyday item.

Mike

[redcap]

We used to make blackjacks by slipping a new bar of Army issue soap into an Army issue khaki sock and tying a knot in it. This was applied to the back of the ear of anyone in the way when raiding other unit's barracks after lights out.

This thread is interesting to me as I have just launched a new program at my school, C.O.S.H. or Close Order SHort Stick Method.  In other words I am revising the Truncheon. 12 inches of weighted stick (or pipe) with a lanyard or thumbstrap on the end. 

The method has 50 techniques for use in defences against common attacks, weapon retention, escape from holds and grabs and confrontation management (one shot fight stoppers).

I think the reason police now use longer batons is that they took the simple truncheon for granted and stopped training in its use.  So then they started to think they needed something more effective and went for straight batons and then the PR24 and now they have handcuff batons and revolving batons and lawd knows what else.  Yet the truncheon still does a great job in trained and determined hands.

I will post some snippets form our testing sessions to You Tube, plus you can read more about it on my blog, www.stickfighterjourney.blogspot.com  Cheers, Perry I mean Redcap.

[the spaniard]

Thanks,look pretty interesting.
I have a British truncheon i took with me back to Spain from England.
It's skull crasher with some marks of being used

[redcap]

I have little doubt correct spelling is Kosh not Cosh. However I still spell it with a "c" so I can use "Close" and not have to spell it "Klose".

My idea of a blackjack/sap is a leather item filled with lead shot that has a flat face an inch or two across and an edge (about half an inch thick) and it's shaped like a lollypop with a wide flat stick.  These have been prohibited articles in New South Wales, Australia for decades.  I am 45 and I can;t recall when they were legal.  Of course we all had one or something similar when I was an MP back in the early 80's.  We also had a mattock handle in every Datsun 200B patrol car.  (Could those babies burn rubber! no, I'm dreaming again)

We did train with the PR24 and the KB28 and learnt the Charles Lamb Method and other things courtesy of some cross training with the NSW Police Tactical Response Group and the NSW Corrective Services Emergency Reaction Unit.  We taught them some shooting skills we had picked up around the traps.

The C.O.S.H. Method I have put together is a simple system that includes some restraint and compliance moves but it isn;t designed for LEO use or for long term study.  It is part of a Schedule or RIPs (Rapid Instructional Programs) that start with StreetFMA.  We teach the core FMA movement as used in Redonda Siniwalli and then work from there, adding more knife defence skills via StreetSteel RIP and then more stick skills with StreetStik (A walking stick method, the Fairbairn Stick Method and COSH) and then finish with StreetSmart, the fight psych and fear control module and StreetLegal, or improvised weapons you can carry and how to use them, particularly the rolled up newspaper.

Simple, proven, effective and not rocket science but with a logical progression for students or experienced martial artists looking for more.

I think the lawsuit risk can be lessened considerably with better training and the shorter stick.  A longer 24-31inch stick tends to be whipped around and swiped and builds up some oomph, whereas a short 12 inch truncheon needs some direction and intent to to its job.  You tend to focus more when fighting with a truncheon than a nightstick.

Too many lawsuits came about because the cop swung at the head.  Even in 1982 we were taught to aim below the shoulder with the KB28 straight baton and PR24 side handle baton for this reason.

I do agree that if you are caught with a 12 inch stick on you, particularly one that is weighted at the distel end to add heft and is clearly a weapon and carried for self defence then you could be in a lot of trouble.  Different trouble to being caught out by a bad guy or three without one, but trouble all the same.  That is up to the individual to decide I guess.

I like the longer baton and I like the ASP, they all have their place.  I also think the truncheon has its place and is ovedue a comeback.  Cheers, Redcap

(Before anyone accuses me of trying to flog anything, keep in mind there is nothing in my courses that Hock and others on this forum don't already cover, in more depth most likely, with their own product.  I mention the RIP Schedule only to place things in context, not to advertise for students. My apologies if I have inadvertanlty breached any commercial post restrictions, not my intention.)

[redcap]

ahh the thigh strike!  Sod that for a game of soldiers!  Aim for the knee joint!  You can always claim he moved!  I have been hit hard on the thigh numerous times and with a heavy stick (not just a rattan FMA 27 inch job) it hurts and it can numb but it has never dropped me or stopped me.  Not then, anyway. Later, once the adrenalin wears off......

What you need when you hit someone with a stick for real is instant gratification!  You want to watch the mongrel drop where he stood, right then, right now!  Knee joints! Collar bones, take his lower lip off and pin it behind his ear!  Or a jab to the ingenual fold (where the thigh meets the torso).  A good jab with some push behind it.  Nothing worse than giving someone what you thought was your best shot and they are still standing there looking at you. 

As for hitting to the head, I have been hit there too and luckily it was with a rattan stick and not a D battery Maglite.  I have also hit heads with kubotans and the place of choice is over the ear where the skull is thicker.  Haven;t killed anyone yet but it does make them pause and re-evaluate their life choices at the time.  A lot of my professional disagreements have been with Islanders and Aborigines and they have thicker skulls than caucasians and are usualy rather large lads.  If you have to hit one then you have to hit very, very hard or else you are not going to be happy at home time.  But they all have throats, knees and that lovely little spot where the jaw meets the ear.  Cheers, Perry

PS I no longer teach LEOs so I acknowledge the greater lattitude I have compared to Hock and others in his line of work.

[Nick Hughes]

Ah yes, the abos and the Samoans with their thicker skulls...brings back memories   I always had luck with their guts and knees.  They always had weak stomachs (all the booze probably) and spindly legs

N

[loyalonehk]

We used to make blackjacks by slipping a new bar of Army issue soap into an Army issue khaki sock and tying a knot in it. This was applied to the back of the ear of anyone in the way when raiding other unit's barracks after lights out.

Ahhh, the flash backs...  LOL 

We had a "piece of work" (there's always one) in Boot that made a lot of enemies.  About a couple weeks in, he resorted to feeling the need to do a similar thing...  only he used to put his pad lock in a sock and sleep with it in hand.  He had reason to be concerned after pissing off everyone in the ship/platoon.

Thanks for the memories...  I often wondered if I was going to be on the receiving end of that one...  Maybe its because of that time I called him out and tried to fire him up by spitting in his ear...  He didnt want to play when you got in his face.  The good ole "Rickie Ninja"... 

And yes, he did get a canteen full of wiz...  Wasnt me...  I like face to face confrontations (or should I say face to ear)...  but that did happen...   

I've matured a bit since then...  or have I

[redcap]

Nick, you can't call them "Abo's".  Traditional Land Owners or Koori's thank you very much!  You have been away too long!  Even after living in the Philippines for just four years I came home to find Oz had changed considerably while I had my back turned!  By 2009 the government will have reached its target to legislate against all risk in life.  Part of our new, fine society. Just fine people for everything.

Loyalonehk, There is one in every platoon, division, flight whatever.  Get 30 blokes together and you are bound to have one "piece of work" amongst them!  We had one who was a mouth breather/snorer to wake the dead.  He got his own one night on guard duty when he took his turn sleeping and found out why the rest of us wouldn;t partner with the sleep walking urinator.  It wasn't pretty.  Hilarious yes, pretty, no.  Cheers, Perry

[Nick Hughes]

Mate,

as long as I live here, in the land of "freedom of speech" I shall always call them "abos."  If the Australian govt doesn't like it, they can take a 100 yard walk on a fifty yard jetty.

I was told all about that shite.  My brother was jumped by fifteen zipper heads at a club in Brisbane who tried to put his eye out with a sharpened spike one had.  He chased them outside and was into it when the whallopers rolled up.  One of them heard him calling the guy a "dink" and threatened to charge him with racial slurring or some such nonsense.  This is while my brother is standing there with broken nose, teeth, cuts and gashes after having been jumped.  Cops were more interested in stopping him from insulting them than arresting them for assaulting him.  Sheer fooking madness.  I never thought Oz would go that route.

[redcap]

The police we have nowadays are simply people doing a job in the main.  They no longer have to meet standards of fitness or size as this is discrimination.  I know two cops who are still probationary and both are older than me!  Where I live we have cops that would hit 5'2" in boots and weigh 100lbs wringing wet.  Some, especially the females, have such attitudes which I know are caused by incompetence and fear.  If they had more confidence in their training and more ability they would have no need to be so b eliigerant.  At least the two older cops have good life experience and don;t throw their weight around like many of the young, short, minority and or female Num bers do.  I call them numbers because they were recruited to make up the numbers as promised at the last election.

Last time I called them they took four hours to come and couldn;t care less when they got here.  Before that it was two lesbian sausage rolls with attitude who couldn't hold down a five year old crack addict let alone the islanders and abo's that cause the grief in my neighborhood.  So my most recent event i didn;t bother wasting their time, I just managed it on their behalf.

A recent ethics exam at the Academy reported in the paper had only 40% passing when the pass mark was less than 50%!!!  I no longer have much respect for the cops here and that hurts being a former MP and so on.  As for calling a spade a spade, I was accused by a Chinese bloke of calling him a Chinaman when the cops arrived to ref the dispute.  I told the cop in charge that was obviously a lie because if I was going to use racial invective I wouldn;t call him a Chinaman, which he is, I would call him a...&^%%$#@@!$^&*(()(.  The officer agreed I had a point.  One of the old school!  Cheers, Perry er I mean Redcap.

[the spaniard]

What's your opinion gents on using stabs with the sap?
Groin,kidneys and upward to the chin.

[redcap]

Not the best use of the weapon or the best weapon to use for those strikes but doable.  Slapping the attitude off him is the best way, about the jaw hinge point always worked like a store bought one for me.  Put some snap! into it too!  Cheers, Redcap.  See I remembered not to use Perry and ,,,,D'oh!

[grlaun]

Hey, Redcap din't you just call a Traditional landowner. koor'i an abo? Sgame on you not very PC

[Nick Hughes]

In all seriousness they can kiss my arse with their PC bullshite.

Calling them "abos" is no different than calling me an Aussie. There's is short for Aboriginal and mine is short for Australian.  What's next...can I not call Wardog a Canuk?  Can I not call my Swedish mate "Swede?"  I'm so over their political correctedness that they can kiss my fat white arse.

It does nothing anyway.  One of the things we learn in NLP is that if I tell you to not think of a blue elephant the first thing you're going to do is think of a blue elephant.  So, saying for example "The N Word' has every Tom Dick and Harry at home going "hmm, nigger."  Saying the "F-word" and the "C-bomb" are exactly the same...everyone listening has just said to themselves "oh he just politely said "fuck" and "cunt"

In the Legion, with 96 nationalities, we ragged the shite out of each other.  Nobody cared.  Everyone gave back as good as they got and everyone had a laugh.  Now, we're supposed to walk about on eggshells making sure we don't offend anyone's sensibilities.

B...U...L...L...S...H...I...T

Rant mode over

While we're at it, you Yanks can kiss my arse as well

N

PS: Jeff...not directed at you mate...I know you were just ragging that redcapped wanker, you bastard.

[arnold]

See, IMHO, this is the problem we have today. And that is, people just don't treat each other equally. I, on the other hand, treat everyone with the same ammount of distain that I show every waste of carbon on this planet. I don't give a flying fuck if you're white, balck, green, queer, watch NASCAR, or wear spiffy yellow. ( though I really hate Rednecks in speedos) I hate everybody equally. If it was up to me though, certain people throughout the world would receive a chocolate covered hand grenade for any hoilday. The pin would be a colored chocolate flower as we all know that shitheads just can't resist pulling on the chocolate flower.
And there you have it fair readers. Another one of my glorious solutions for taking care of the strife in the world.
PS Members of the Short Bus Society are exempt from the above comments.

[grlaun]

Thanks for the sidebar, Nick! 

The old Python show with the "Bruces" comes to mind RULE #6 There will no insulting the Abos in any way, if there's anybody watching!

And I don't care about being called a Yank, I just don't wanna hafta kiss your lilly white Down Under arse!  (as close as I'll get!)

If I get a Herumph from Arnold its sealed!

[usks1]

As for them tire thumper saps / blackjacks whateva the f**k you wanna call them..

We owned a bar when I was youngster, and my Dad had one of these things behind the counter..

Like any good ole red blooded young little shithead, I decided to try this thing out on some of my buddies.... Well after 4 or 5 layers of skin removal from my ass, and a few years of being grounded, the conclusion was that they are nasty devils.

I like em...