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[Bri Thai]

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/6630181.stm

Dangers of policing the streets 

As a police constable is shot dead in Shrewsbury, we ask if officers are facing increasing danger on the streets.
 
The officer was killed while attending a domestic incident in which a man was brandishing a firearm.

But the debate on whether more British police officers should carry guns remains as divided as ever after the Shrewsbury officer's death.

"In circumstances where all police officers were armed, it might not have saved his life anyway because there has to be a degree of preparation," said former Metropolitan Police firearms officer Roger Gray.

"The man inside the door has the advantage, and if he takes it then action beats reaction," he told BBC News 24.

"I don't think we desire to have a fully armed police force in this country - the resources required to do it are enormous. I don't think it's a practical position."

Research carried out by the Police Federation for England and Wales last year found 40,000 officers had been faced with a knife and 7,000 threatened with a gun during the past two years.

Paul Tonks, chairman of the West Midlands Police Federation, said that during his 28 years' service there had always been colleagues injured, but the job had become more dangerous recently.

He said: "The easiest way to show this is that now officers wear a stab and ballistic-proof vest and are issued with a CS incapacity spray.

"They are also issued with a baton which is far more effective than those issued 28 years ago."

But he added: "Firearms have been used against police, but it's still extremely unusual."

One of Pc Tonks' colleagues was shot and injured in Wolverhampton in November 2006. Two years ago another West Midlands officer, Detective Constable Michael Swindells, was stabbed to death.

Pc Tonks' concerns over safety are echoed throughout the police service.

Crisis management expert Peter Power, a former Metropolitan police officer who specialises in shootings, agreed that it is "incredibly rare" for an officer to be shot.

"In other countries it is not quite so rare - we must never lose sight of that," he said.

However, Mr Power said it was a "myth" that gun ownership was more common than in the past.
 
The increasing violence against police mirrors that faced by other people in society

He told BBC News: "There is a popular culture that somehow we are carrying more guns than ever before. I'm not sure.

"I think fear exceeds reality. I think we often get confused. I'm not sure whether there is such a proliferation of gun crime."

But not everyone agrees.

Pc Norman Brennan said violent crime had "shot through the roof" during his 27 years with the Metropolitan Police.

Pc Brennan, who founded the pressure group Protect the Protectors, said: "Britain is very violent and the increasing violence against police mirrors that faced by other people in society."

He said: "I have taken on people with knives at least three times and one time I got stabbed in the chest, which nearly cost my life. It had a devastating impact."

But were things really much safer in his day?

A survey by Jane's Police Review in March 2006 found 21,845 assaults on officers in 51 forces across the UK last year. Most forces showed year-on-year increases, but one in three forces recorded a fall.

Despite this apparent rise in danger, the number of police officers killed on duty as a result of criminal acts in Britain has not risen sharply.

Before the latest officer death, Police Memorial Trust figures showed 27 officers were killed in the 1970s, 42 in the 1980s, 21 in the 1990s and 15 since 2000.

Those figures did not include police officers killed in Northern Ireland.

The trust, which erects memorials to officers killed on duty, was set up by film producer Michael Winner, a vocal advocate of arming police officers, after the death of policewoman Yvonne Fletcher in 1984.




Quite a balanced artcle really.  No doubt both sides of the debate will see "evidence" of their own cause.  RIP to the officer, and condolences to his family, friends and colleagues.

[Kentbob]

Yes, it certainly is a balanced article, detailing both sides well, I think.  Thanks for posting that.


Kent

[threegun]

An officer dying at the hands of a criminal is a disgusting thing. Dying at the hands of a criminal without any means of saving yourself is down right pathetic. The fact that your country has men and women bold enough to serve as police officers despite the populations lack of allowing them to defend themselves from and armed attacker is quit amazing. Those of you who refuse to allow civil servants to defend themselves should be ashamed right now.

[philw]

Actually, the officer in question was armed.

Phil

[Bri Thai]

Yes.  And the man who shot him had a legally owned gun.

Not really a thread for you to launch your next campaign on, threegun!

 

[GTC-554]

Yes.  And the man who shot him had a legally owned gun.

Not really a thread for you to launch your next campaign on, threegun!

 

Then why is it ok for you to launch your campaigns over dead Americans?

[Bri Thai]

Campaign over dead Americans?  What kind of low ball nonsense question is this?  I was the one asking people not to make political comment after the latest school killings that went on in the USA.  Looks to me like you are trying to demonise my stance merely because this particular situation is far from an ideal illustration of your own views.

Dead Americans indeed.  That was just sick.

Mind you, looks like the time is ripe for a new incident

http://www.azstarnet.com/sn/hourlyupdate/176671.php

Student arrested after bringing gun to Ironwood Ridge High School, officials said
By Alexis Huicochea

A 10th-grader at Ironwood Ridge High School was arrested last week for taking a loaded gun to school, officials said Tuesday.  The student, whose name was not released, was arrested March 26 on suspicion of weapons misconduct - possession on school grounds - and released to his parents, said Liz Wright, a spokeswoman for the Oro Valley Police Department. He has been referred to Pima County Juvenile Court.

Earlier that day, school administrators learned from a student that a 16-year-old boy brought a gun to the school, 2475 W. Naranja Drive.  The assistant principal and a school resource officer brought the student in for questioning at which time they learned he had the loaded revolver in his jacket pocket.

"He said another student gave it to him at his bus stop and asked him to hold on to it," Wright said.

The other student was questioned but denied knowing anything about a gun, she said. That student was searched, along with his car, and no firearms or ammunition were found.

The Oro Valley Police Department is working to determine who the gun belongs to but it was not reported stolen, Wright said.

It is not clear why the boy took the gun to school, but according to Todd Jaeger, the Amphitheater School District attorney and associate superintendent, "his motive was not harmful and there is not indication that anyone was to be threatened with the weapon."

"This is one of those situations that brings home the fact that these things still happen in schools," Jaeger said. "We are very fortunate that this was simply the presence of a gun and when it became known to us, appropriate action was taken."

A letter sent home Tuesday was sent home to parents from the school's principal, Sam McClung, advising that the situation is being taken seriously.

"We do not want to have a school with metal detectors, or a 10 foot high perimeter fence. We want our school to be a welcoming place, not look like or feel like a prison," McClung wrote. "All students have a responsibility to never bring weapons to school. Beyond that, however, students also have a responsibility to never play a role in concealing another student's possession of a harmful weapon."

Jaeger would not comment on what kind of discipline was administered citing student privacy rules.

Mnd you, maybe they should all bring guns in.  That way they can defend everyone when some guy starts shooting.

[GTC-554]

Campaign over dead Americans?  What kind of low ball nonsense question is this?  I was the one asking people not to make political comment after the latest school killings that went on in the USA.  Looks to me like you are trying to demonise my stance merely because this particular situation is far from an ideal illustration of your own views.

Dead Americans indeed.  That was just sick.

Mind you, looks like the time is ripe for a new incident

http://www.azstarnet.com/sn/hourlyupdate/176671.php

Student arrested after bringing gun to Ironwood Ridge High School, officials said
By Alexis Huicochea

A 10th-grader at Ironwood Ridge High School was arrested last week for taking a loaded gun to school, officials said Tuesday.  The student, whose name was not released, was arrested March 26 on suspicion of weapons misconduct - possession on school grounds - and released to his parents, said Liz Wright, a spokeswoman for the Oro Valley Police Department. He has been referred to Pima County Juvenile Court.

Earlier that day, school administrators learned from a student that a 16-year-old boy brought a gun to the school, 2475 W. Naranja Drive.  The assistant principal and a school resource officer brought the student in for questioning at which time they learned he had the loaded revolver in his jacket pocket.

"He said another student gave it to him at his bus stop and asked him to hold on to it," Wright said.

The other student was questioned but denied knowing anything about a gun, she said. That student was searched, along with his car, and no firearms or ammunition were found.

The Oro Valley Police Department is working to determine who the gun belongs to but it was not reported stolen, Wright said.

It is not clear why the boy took the gun to school, but according to Todd Jaeger, the Amphitheater School District attorney and associate superintendent, "his motive was not harmful and there is not indication that anyone was to be threatened with the weapon."

"This is one of those situations that brings home the fact that these things still happen in schools," Jaeger said. "We are very fortunate that this was simply the presence of a gun and when it became known to us, appropriate action was taken."

A letter sent home Tuesday was sent home to parents from the school's principal, Sam McClung, advising that the situation is being taken seriously.

"We do not want to have a school with metal detectors, or a 10 foot high perimeter fence. We want our school to be a welcoming place, not look like or feel like a prison," McClung wrote. "All students have a responsibility to never bring weapons to school. Beyond that, however, students also have a responsibility to never play a role in concealing another student's possession of a harmful weapon."

Jaeger would not comment on what kind of discipline was administered citing student privacy rules.

Mnd you, maybe they should all bring guns in.  That way they can defend everyone when some guy starts shooting.

There is nothing sick about pointing out hypocrisy and telling the truth.

[Nick Hughes]

Mnd you, maybe they should all bring guns in.  That way they can defend everyone when some guy starts shooting.

If the inference here is a dig (and I suspect it is knowing the author ) at the everyone should have guns argument it is flawed...nay, hugely flawed.

Everytime a city passes ordinance here to allow concealed weapons carry by qualified citizens the anit-gun brigade start wailing about shoot outs in the streets, rivers of blood and bullets flying. 

Well, despite their histrionic wailing it's never happened yet.  The law is passed, crime rates against people drop SHARPLY & SIGNIFICANTLY, and life goes on.

All that article about the kid does is prove what I wrote in my other post...that the media feeds and thrives on negativity.  How many kids went to school in America yesterday without guns, without violence and without any problems?  Millions of them.

Nick

[arnold]

This just points out why all children need a good beating. Even with all of the firearms we had in the house growing up as kids, we would have never even thought of removing them from the house without my Dad's permission.To even think about something like this, life as we knew it would have ended. We knew where my Father kept his service pistol, we would hav enever even thought of touching it.  don't think I even even handled it until i was in my 30's. ( and yes, that was a long time ago)
The dumb little shit who pulled this stunt should be throw out of school, put on probation for 10 years, and forced to finish school in some reformatory. That would send a message to these brainless little shits that stupid behaviour will not be tolerated. And that the next moron who pulls this stunt will be sent to jail. Teenage pranks are one thing, but this is just plain stupid and unforgivable.
We used to have a rifle and pistol team when I was in high school. Maybe if the liberal idiots pulled their collective heads out of their asses for a short period of time, and taught a firearms course in school, then maybe some of this crap would come to and end. Kids that want to look and dress likje asshole just so they can "find themselves" need to be beaten, painted green and sent to Australia. There they could learn the fine art of shooting roos out of a truck with square wheels ( see one of the Nicksters previous posts), and maybe just maybe, learn something useful.

[grlaun]

Amen.

[Bri Thai]

Even I can agree with that.

[arnold]

WOW! I can't believe it. Careful there old Bri. You may actually turn into some type of conservative

[Bri Thai]

I may be there already.  But my neck isn't red, y'all here?   

[threegun]

Bri, My next campaign? I debate you a few times on gun control and now I'm running a campaign LOL. Gotta love the liberal movement. Most of Brits officers are unarmed and defenseless against an armed foe. Having guns is no guarantee of living but it does give you a fighting chance. I am angered every time a officer dies. It particularly irks me that they be killed with no means to prevent it. No campaign Bri just emotions. Heck if anyone has a campaign it would be you and your campaign to stir things up here on Hocks.

[Bri Thai]

When offering an alternative view is seen as "stirring things up" it is a sure sign that some minds are closed.

[threegun]

When offering an alternative view is seen as "stirring things up" it is a sure sign that some minds are closed.

Especially when said "alternative views" are shot down repeatedly yet the purveyor of said views remains behind them. We finally agree that you are closed minded LOL.