Print

Please login or register.
1 Hour 1 Day 1 Week 1 Month Forever
Login with username, password and session length

[Nick Hughes]

Read an article years ago by a Balintawak guy (they predominantly use only one stick in combat).  They didn't believe in training with two sticks as they said it's not realistic to lug two weapons round.  I.e. one umbrella, one walking stick, one flash light etc.

They went on to say they did no training with their left hand (assuming they're right handed) because they figure that if the other guy is good enough to beat me when I'm using the best arm I've got, I've got no chance trying to beat him with the weak hand.  Ergo, time spent training with the weak arm is time better spent getting the strong arm stronger.

I'm not a big fan of the philosophy because I figure what happens if I have a motorcycle accident for e.g. and my right arm is in a sling when I'm jumped.  If I've never used the left hand side I'm in shite shape.

Interested in other's opinions on this one.

Regards
N

[Alex]

hi Ninor!  interesting viewpoint; there must be some significance somewhere historically or practicality-wise.  I;m not overly familiar with balintawak, but the stuff that i studied briefly had a butterfly knife in one hand and a whip in the other; this particular style anyhow.  Essentially long and short/espada y daga.

not really familiar with the format you're speaking of though.

al-x

[Professor]

Read an article years ago by a Balintawak guy (they predominantly use only one stick in combat).  They didn't believe in training with two sticks as they said it's not realistic to lug two weapons round.  I.e. one umbrella, one walking stick, one flash light etc.

They went on to say they did no training with their left hand (assuming they're right handed) because they figure that if the other guy is good enough to beat me when I'm using the best arm I've got, I've got no chance trying to beat him with the weak hand.  Ergo, time spent training with the weak arm is time better spent getting the strong arm stronger.

I'm not a big fan of the philosophy because I figure what happens if I have a motorcycle accident for e.g. and my right arm is in a sling when I'm jumped.  If I've never used the left hand side I'm in shite shape.

Interested in other's opinions on this one.

Regards
N

I'm split on this one, but, I would have to agree for Basic and Advance students.   The Intermediate students need to learn it for the just-in-case scenerio.   Professor Remy Presas was a Balintawak practitioner with the left hand....thus making for interesting fights when they assumed he was right handed.

I've almost complete gone away from training people left hand only, but I do like to teach double weapons to help student with flow and hand speed.   

When working with weapons for a long period of time, the left-hand will learn if you keep it up and active in the fight..

.02,

Jeff

[mpbelzer]

Hi Nior,

Regarding your question about training the left hand and the Filipino Balintawak style. I cannot speak for that system but I can tell you that when I was in the Philippines for three months in 1985, just about all of the systems I witnessed (including the Balintawak) trained both hands.  They used the "sinawali" double stick patterns as well as the "espada y daga" methods using the knife in the left hand and the stick in the right.  This training method "forced" you to work on your "weak side" and didn't really allow you to "get lazy" and work your left side later.

I spent most of my training time with GM Antonio Ilustrisimo and one of his senior guys Roberto Morales who was a lefty and did most of the single stick movements with his left hand.  That type of training definitely throws you off when you are not used to it.  We have seen this in combat sports as well.  Wrestlers, judoka and boxers who have well developed "lefty" tecjniques do very well against the usual right handers.

We also need to take a hint from our street experienced  law enforcement brothers.  LE trainers I know almost always say "don't forget your "off side".  If your primary hand is disabled you need to be able to operate your weapon (or get to your back up) with your "weak" hand."  And to do that you need to practice with it in a progressive manner.

Any more "left side" training ideas or experiences out there?

Mike

[Trembula]

I used to do everything right handed, unless I was working with a lefty, then we would mirror each otherr. Then this Summer I watched Bram Frank's excellent CSSDSC Knife series where he explained something that had become painfully apparent when I used to box.

We live in a right handed world. Left handers, in most circumstances, must train themselves to adapt to this world, manipulating everything from doorknobs, to manual transmissions, firearms, hand tools, etc. that were designed for right handed people. So now, instead of switching to lefty when I am training a lefty, I figure out how to adapt the drill/combat scenario/ etc. to where the lefty learns to deal with the righty  - and the righty learns to fight the lefty. "Mirror Mirror" of lefty and lefty isn't that realistic of a training paradigm. Sure, it could happen, but if one wants to play the odds (and we all do, whether it is a friendly bet on a ball game, the craps tables, profiling, taking a chance on an illegal parking space, etc), then it doesn't make that much sense for left hander to train to fight another lefty.

To throw out some simple math, which everyone should take with a grain of salt, look at the following (assuming 10% of the population is left handed):

(liklihood of matchup)

Right vs. Left..... 9% chance
Right vs. Right..81% chance
Left vs. Right......9% chance
Left vs. Left....... 1% chance

And of course, if you are right handed, 90% of your opponents will probably be right handed. But if you are left handed, then 90% of your opponents will be right handed.

I had to take "Probability with Naval Applications" twice - and I barely passed it the second time, but I think these numbers tell us something about where our training time should be spent. It just isn't worth it considering how little time most folks have to train to teach lefties how to fight other lefties.

I am not advocating ignoring training the left hand at all - everyone should strive for a degree of ambidexterity - it improves coordination, helps keep the body balanced, and greatly increases survivability should the strong hand get injured. Hurt your strong side? Then work your weak side. Need a challenge? Switch hands for a while. One of my training partners used to play raquetball with his right (weak) side so his opponents would last long enough for him to get a workout when playing. I have a left handed holster for my 1911, waiting for the inevitable day when my trigger finger/hand/wrist/arm/shoulder on my strong side get injured... no reason to stop shooting just because I hurt myself in Judo or whatnot.

I yield the soapbox to the next person...

Dan

[Heath]

ok , ill bite...getting up on the soapbox...hahaha

 a thing that happend to me one day...while i was in class i hurt my strong side hand...so i had to wrap it to my chest from getting hurt in class...in real life..if your right hand is hurt..then you will need to use your left..but then if you didnt train your left...then what?  that is why i train both...if the good one is gone..then i will at least do SOME damage hopefully with the other...off the soapbox now...

[Hock]

In the Philippines, Remy Presas has quite a few stick fights for money and they were bloody affairs. He told me he would often start out holding his stick in his right hand, then in “round one” he would switch to his left and natural side. He said this caused great confusion with many of his opponents. I have talked about this elsewhere on the forum in more detail.

Both Remy and Ernesto Presas trained in Balintiwak over there. Ernesto did for about four years, traveling by ferry to the island of its origin. Anyway, they always did double weapons and developed both hands.

I must honestly say that I do hear confusing things from the Balintiwak training in the Carolinas, mid-east coast, seaboard area. I hear strange things I cannot relate to. Some never do knife. Some never do double weapons. Some with the same instructor who denounces double weapons, have done tons of double weapon work with the same guy? Lots of inexplicable contidrictions. One guy told me they only did knife. I have never gotten to the bottom of it.

There is a group I know of in Australia who bypasses the Philippines and goes all the way over to the Carolinas to train Balintiwak in, like four-day camps. They said they never did double weapons in all their trips. 

Anyway that is not the Balintiwak I was exposed to in the Philippines.

In the PAC seminars once in awhile I do a "Remy Special" that is your left stick -to-his right hand stick technique, that he would sometimes show. But my friend Mark Lynn is a repossitory of these. Maybe we can get him to show some in PAC Ring of Fire this May in Dallas. They are quite unique.

Remember, bring your whole school for only $500. We don't care if its 30 people. Jeff Laun has the space. 

Hock

[Kentbob]

     This may not relate to escrima or FMA, but on the whole left and right hand, here goes.  My kickboxing instructor many years ago made me train my left side exclusively for a while, after watching me use my right.  I am right handed, just to let you know.  Next time I got in the ring, (for regular boxing), that training paid off, as I was able to switch at will.  My Judo instructor back home took his guys up to Canda for a very, very, large tournament.  WEEELLL, come to find out, the Canadians train left side more than their right side.  Why?  Because they know that the Americans only train right side.  Long story short, my instructor's guys got their heads handed to them on a sliver platter.  On the bright side, they also learned a valuabel lesson, and now when I go home, they train their left sides equally.  It sure does throw a monkeywrench into the gears, let me tell you. 
     In my own opinion, if we are going to look at fighting scientifically, it would only make sense to take advantage of every available tool, and thus, we would train our left side in every technique that we train on the right side. 
   My two cents.

Kent

[Reactor]

As I'm a Balintawak practitioner (Tabimina), allow me to share my thoughts on this.

I've not seen the US version/s of Balintawak so perhaps the Philippine experience is different.

Balintawak's training methodology uses one stick but it is incorrect to equate this with training only one hand/side, although clearly I can see how it can be seen as such.

Balintawak works both sides and develop them to a high level. No one stance is favored, although the starting point for beginners, assuming one is right-handed, is right foot forward. Developing one'a ability to "deal with the moment" and flow from moment to moment within the chaos that is combat, regardless of what stance/position you are caught in, is given more emphasis than anything else. 

Striking can certainly emanate from both sides, although obviously if you have only one stick, then it follows that the striking from the "unarmed" hand would be a punch, or some version thereof, and the strike with the weapon would be favored.

It should be noted also that the left does not mirror the right. Rather both work together. One need only see the unarmed expression of Balintawak (or with weapons other than a stick) to see this.

It might interest people to know also that Balintawak has espada y daga roots, and it was Anciong Bacon's (Balintawak founder) predilection for poking his training partners that led to his being banned from using the dagger while training with Saavedra. To my mind, this further enhanced his ability to use both sides, if only to compensate for this handicap as he was still required to "spar" against others with both espada y daga. Those who have exposure to espada y daga will, in fact, see the movements as well in Balintawak. Even in espada y daga, the movements of the left and right are not mirror movements, but complementary movements.

All of the above are oversimplifications, of course, but for those so inclined to read a little about the system, you can check out http://balintawak.s5.com

Cheers,
Reactor