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Author Topic: Old Shooting Style  (Read 1937 times)

redcap

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Old Shooting Style
« on: July 09, 2007, 06:28:00 PM »

Hock's log with the photo of the cop shooting from the hip is priceless.  As he said, you can kill just the same this way as from a more "modern stance".

I have studied my "Shooting To Live" by W.E. Fairbairn and E.A. Sykes and other period manuals and they all managed to kill plenty of people without the need to get into a Weaver stance or whatever.

Fairbairn in other quotes uses the term "the one hand gun" when referring to pistol shooting.  My take on his method is that he doesn't believe you have the time to get into a two handed firing position when it is for real and he does have a decent CV to back that up. 

The former Oklahoma cop/FBI Agent Jelly Bryce shot all of his 19 opponents one handed, although he did claim he could see the bullet's trajectory or something.  This would aid the second and third round placement when instinctive shooting, surely?

I had a short assignment teaching some Filipino security guards in Manila some years back.  They had a simple, two handed way of shooting pistols.  They held the gun at arms length between the wide spread legs and simply swung it up to face level and fired, keeping both eyes open.  This stopped a lot of the high shooting they found happened when the weapon was held muzzle up and brought down on to the target.

I showed them a similar position to that espoused by WEF and EAS and shown in Hock's photograph, a crounched, tucked in, shoulder, elbow, wrist locked and lined up position, both eyes open and staring at the target.  I had them drawing, firing two rounds and taking a step left or right and firing again or going to the prone position or using cover and they all loved it. 

They also had a sawed off M1928 Thompson SMG!  Just a short, maybe 5inch barrell.  I used an overhand fore grip, middle finger firing technique and it kept the muzzle climb to manageable levels, something they hadn;t seen before but taught to me by an old WW2 veteran.

One of the reasons I enjoy Hock's blogs so much is we are of a similar era (albeit he is older than me and not as good looking according to my wife).  Long before mobile phones and computers and all that and we still managed to make do and reach the 1990's!  Cheers, Redcap.
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“No man knows the hour of his ending, nor can he choose the place or the manner of his going. To each it is given to die proudly, to die well, and this is, indeed, the final measure of the man.” Louis L’Amour

Hock

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Re: Old Shooting Style
« Reply #1 on: July 09, 2007, 07:48:56 PM »

I think each situation requires an instinctive decision to use one or two hands, and all-too-much paper training today is done with two-handed grip, making that the trained/reflexive choice. This decision is not trained into them modern polcie oficer, nor the hypnotized gun-rnage shooter.

Redcap, years ago I spent about $50 buying a 30-to-40 year-old, Life Magazine that had the Jelly Bryce, stop-action, pistol shooting photography in it. Very cool. The pages are giant and it takes a giant scanner to capture them and get them o the blog, but I think i will try to when I get back to Texas.

We must be psychic because I was thinking about Bryce in the last 24 hours. He does say he sees the bullet hit the taget. I assume in the saame way baseball bayyers say they see the seams of a baseball. Baseball coaches say to see the seams as the ball comes in. AN impossible feat, yet makes a batter really zone in on the ball.

In that Blog picture? That must be an FBI "coach." Retired or active duty. They were the main traveling source for instruction back then.

This is hard to describe but... last week I made a reconn of many gun forums. I noted that these guys, mostly citizens were....wellllll you know..I think I make my comments into a blog for tomorrow...kill two birds with one bullet...er...stone.

Hock
« Last Edit: July 09, 2007, 10:08:56 PM by Hock »
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Hock

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Re: Old Shooting Style
« Reply #2 on: July 09, 2007, 08:28:26 PM »

Nick Hughes

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Re: Old Shooting Style
« Reply #3 on: July 09, 2007, 08:42:26 PM »

We have to be careful of the "Bryces" of the world...the problem I have with them - and they exist in many fields - is that they are unable to ever teach anyone else how they do what they do.  Bryce, if I remember correctly, was an instructor at one point for the bureau...any records of him teaching anyone else to replicate his stuff?  None that I'm aware of.

My hat goes off to the average instructors who plod away tirelessly night after night producing thousands of students who can pull off the stuff they learn, and thus escape some serious trouble.  They'll probably never be featured in magazines, have people talk about them, or be remembered in any special way, except by their students who defended themselves successfully as a result of their training.

Nick
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Hard pressed on my right. My center is yielding. Impossible to maneuver. Situation excellent. I am attacking.
--Ferdinand Foch-- at the Battle of the Marne

Hock

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Re: Old Shooting Style
« Reply #4 on: July 09, 2007, 09:04:40 PM »

According to my old friend G. Gordon Liddy (who has so helped me hugely in many ways)
http://www.liddyshow.us/ 

(Liddy himself was a record-breaking, FBI agent shooter) Bryce was supernatural with a pistol or any fiream, and this ability could not be passed on, like any super athlete who can only coach so far and then the rest of super performance is that of the athlete.

Bryce, born in 1906? 1907? Was shooting like this years before point-shooting/WW II methods were popularized in the 1940s, yet WWII combatives folks like to use him as an example of point-shooting. (I would like anyone to elaborate on this as this is a generalization) almost like reverse-engineering the proof of the method by bringing Bryce up as an example.

Having said all this, I still firmly belive that one-hand shooting is quite reflexive and successful. We might not be able to shoot falling dimes out of the air, but totally untrained idiots have shot police and victims quick like this in close-range scuffles, for decades.

Someone was nice enough to start a Hock-quote-thread on me elsewhere here, which my first impulse really was to take down. This is not supposed to be a hit parade for me, but....I have said this for years now, and I think it VERY important,

"Never judge a fighting system on its best athlete, he will make eveything look good. Never judge it on its worst athlete. He will make everything look bad. Instead, look to the mediocre or average person. See how they function with the material."
[/b]

Hock
« Last Edit: July 09, 2007, 09:06:12 PM by Hock »
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Nick Hughes

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Re: Old Shooting Style
« Reply #5 on: July 09, 2007, 10:07:52 PM »

Lest it be misconstrued I have zero problems with one handed shooting.  My experience, and the experience of others whom I respect, has taught me you'll use one handed shooting far more often than two handed.  Grabbing a client, hanging on to a truck, dragging a wounded buddy et al are all reasons you'll end up using anything other than a two handed grip.

My issue is with the fact he couldn't teach anyone else how to do it.

N

PS:  Something I picked up on my hypnosis course recently was that successful athletes always say "the - insert name of object here - was huge, I couldn't miss' (Babe Ruth for example on hitting the ball out of the park) whereas athletes in a slump always though the object to be hit or grabbed was tiny.   Another baseballer for example said "he felt like he was hitting at aspirins" during a huge slump.
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Hard pressed on my right. My center is yielding. Impossible to maneuver. Situation excellent. I am attacking.
--Ferdinand Foch-- at the Battle of the Marne

redcap

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Re: Old Shooting Style
« Reply #6 on: July 10, 2007, 02:45:31 AM »


Nick, I understand precisely your point and agree with it entirely.  We gifted few must give you mediocre types more leeway.  I apologise on behalf of all of us brilliant (insert talent here) who may have left you in our shadow as we shone our way to....sorry, can;t go on, too much crap even for me!

Back on track.  When clearing rooms and searching corridors one old style method I was taught was to keep the gun tucked in by my side, at the hip with the elbow back and locked.  The index finger ran down the side of the frame as an aiming tool and the middle finger did the technical stuff on the trigger.  The theory was this prevented people from reaching out of nooks (but never crannies of course) and disarming you, grabbing the weapon or striking your gun hand, while the index finger aided in pointing the weapon in the right direction.

On the big glass toilet in my lounge I see everybody nowadays (presuming the action heroes are coached by technical advisers etc) walking robot like with very stiff, extended arms as if they have to keep the gun as far away from them as possible.  Never having tried that in a real situation I will not comment on the worth of this method but I must say it does look a trifle contrived.  Or was the way I taught ineffective, too casual and whatever?  We also, when clearing in pairs, spent as much time prone as standing.  It was the accepted way to look around a corner, either from fully prone or kneeling but rarely if ever at standing height.  Nobody on TV ever gets down, are the sets too grubby? Any wish to comment?  Cheers, Perry
« Last Edit: July 10, 2007, 06:08:24 AM by Hock »
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Hock

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Re: Old Shooting Style
« Reply #7 on: July 10, 2007, 06:58:30 AM »

(presuming the action heroes are coached by technical advisers etc) walking robot like with very stiff, extended arms as if they have to keep the gun as far away from them as possible.  Never having tried that in a real situation I will not comment on the worth of this method but I must say it does look a trifle contrived

I refer to this as the "poster boy" look, and while it has its moments and advantages, the regimented, brainwashing of it all?....I don't like it.

If I told you have I searched a thousand buildings (homes, businesses and factories, etc) I could be wrong, it could well be two thousand. And under all kinds of circumstances from chasing armed men to alarms, and I would never dictate to anyone the mandatory "poster boy" two-handed grips

I have lots of run-and-shoot SIMS drills, Quick draws in Gun 1, searching in Gun 2, running in Gun 6 and the freedom to go one-handed is mandatory to optimize survival. But these things all come out in interactive sims shooting. A method of training that is horribly lopsided in today's gun world, too much paper range, not enough interactive sims, a world where gun guys prances off to the paper target range to redo their...poster boy stances.

I hate to put it quite like this because it might be misleading, but when you train in the interactive sims world, all the gun club mechanics takes a back seat to run, move, think, tactics.

One reason for the robot walk, as Redcap put it, and as discussed here before in other threads, the SWAT world now teaches the field officer, and the "wanna-be" and "next step" gun-club world. But SWAT inherently works to dive in a quick design. Burst in, worry about only a slice, a sliver of a room while other team members cover their slices. Bang! The organized raid is chopped up and finished in seconds.

Training positions and body movements seem to be taught from this perspective. SWAT is still struggled with long-term searches in big buildings like...schools, trying to march their hand-on-shoulder-phalanxes into open and long areas. Some march shoulder-to-shoulder, backs to each other. One poor guys walks backwards the entire time. But, until they go to more open, basic training, military styles, they are moving targets for any kid with shotgun who reflexively fires center mass into a group. Basically...until they do more sims and have people ambush and shoot at them. The marching, toy soldier, phalanx went out with the invention of the machine gun.

I really do fear that someday, police SWAT methods will seep into military training and not vise-versa, as I have seen an awful lot of head-scratching, stupid shit get spread around the military. But, the military and their spread-out tactics is the next step in SWAT evolution. When will it trickle down?

But what about me, the patrol officer on a Saturday night chasing a guy with a gun though a rural area or an old, suburban housing edition fro 20 minutes...that poster-boy shit's gotta' be flexible....real flexible.

This SWAT influence comes up often. We had another discussion here awhile back about blind cover shots, and a SWAT guy, a SWAT-like guy, or a trained -by-a-SWAT came on and said to never, ever do them My God, we would have never won WW II without blind cover shots. Any student of military history and biographies and recounts, any student of modern combat tactician knows this. Simple fire and maneuver are often hinged on blind cover shots . But room raid/SWAT ops can't function in blood cover shot mode, two many comrades dashing about to get into rooms in split seconds. Now lets talk about you and me trying to work across the Tyler city square form the courthouse under fire, as happened in Texas. As happens with regularity.

This poster-boy model that everyone wants to replicate (and don't get me wrong it has advantages) is all part of a overall "gun club," a certain mentality I have run across in the last 20 years or so. The old saying goes that "combat is shooting from awkward positions." And nobody gets that true meaning of that until they are in combat. Inflexible, robot, poster boys are in for a real shock.

(by the way? all this talk? Just pisses off guys in the "Gun Club." So much so they leave this forum. It is more comfortable for them to go elsewhere and discuss, well.. the...the next, new, slide spring or the proper checker pattern on a hand grip. This is all unsettling and uncomfortable for them, but it is indeed the essense of survival that target shooters won't or can't get)

Hock
« Last Edit: July 10, 2007, 08:12:54 AM by Hock »
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redcap

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Re: Old Shooting Style
« Reply #8 on: July 11, 2007, 03:05:15 AM »

"Poster Boy", cute!  I remember the first time I saw that SWAT stick tactic on TV.  My Dad mumbled something about a "bloody box of matches 'd take out the lot of them".  We always wondered about the ambush factor.  I do hope the army doesn;t start doing that in Iraq, those insurgents aren;t dumb and would quickly catch on.

I haven't fired a gun since I came back from the Philippines (Sept 2005) and I don;t have much call for gun training as such (nowadays at least).  We have the Sydney Olympic pistol range near my house and on range days you can hear them popping away. I went there once and found a bunch of wankers with hand cannons strapped to their hips all waffling about what they'd do in a real combat shoot out and so on.  I suggested there were enough of them there so why not pick sides and give it a whirl, then I left.  I haven;t been invited back.  Cheers, Redcap.
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“No man knows the hour of his ending, nor can he choose the place or the manner of his going. To each it is given to die proudly, to die well, and this is, indeed, the final measure of the man.” Louis L’Amour

Hock

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Re: Old Shooting Style
« Reply #9 on: July 11, 2007, 07:20:01 AM »

To repeat at the risk of tiring the ears of old-timers....

I was told in the old army to stay one machine burst apart.

I was told in the old school policing to stay one shotgun blast apart

My WW II vets dad and his friends said sty one hand grenade blast apart (is you could)

That being said, there are many great things that the SWAT world does, but there has been a strange degrading about when the physical spot in the approach of a team, where the commander should declare-

"OK, better spread out, boys."

Hock
 

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