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W. Hock Hochheim's

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Hock Hochheim's Combat Talk Forum

  • May 22, 2012, 10:28:44 AM
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Author Topic: Police wearing vests!  (Read 1465 times)

Rob

  • Level 1
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  • Posts: 31
Police wearing vests!
« on: January 14, 2005, 12:58:47 PM »

In the last year ive seen 3 different police officers
not wearing vests.  ???
How could this be in the day and age we live?

For the record im not an LEO, never been one and never
even played one on T.V.  ;)
It just disturbs me to see this.
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Mt. Orab Ohio

Shogun79

  • Level 2
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  • Posts: 57
    • Keith's Kraal
Re: Police wearing vests!
« Reply #1 on: January 14, 2005, 07:16:01 PM »

I am a police officer and I agree with you 100%!  My department buys our vests and replaces them every five to seven years.  I am on my fourth vest in 15 years.  I have heard every excuse you can think of.  Its to hot!  My department doesn't but them, etc.  If I remember correctly, there is a Vest program that gives vest s to police officers that can't afford them.  I'll have to check my sources.  But you are right, there is not excuse in this day a age. :(
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"He who passively accepts evil, is as much involved in it, as he who helps to perpetuate it."

gumbey

  • Level 3
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  • Posts: 210
Re: Police wearing vests!
« Reply #2 on: January 14, 2005, 08:55:12 PM »

During my 3 yrs as military law enforcement, we were only equipped with vests designed to be worn on the outside part of the uniform. Typically, we use it for certain situations (security alert/hostage situation/robbery/barricaded suspect). I think it was a level 3 vest. You can wear them the whole time on duty as an option but it is very hot in the summer and you'll get a lot of eyes on you. However, after 9/11, we were all issued type 2 vests designed to be worn under the uniform. We are recommended to wear them but not required. As for myself, I wear them on duty religiously. But some of these officers that don't wear one, their mentality (can't happen to me) as well as apathy is their main reason.
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Deadeye Dave

  • Level 2
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  • Posts: 69
Re: Police wearing vests!
« Reply #3 on: January 15, 2005, 12:22:23 AM »

I have been a law enforcement officer AND a body armor sales rep and I believe the problem is with the NIJ (The National Institutes of Justice) which is the organization that regulates body armor standards for vests sold to law enforcement in the US. The NIJ's "backface deformation" standard is the culprit. Basically, this standard means that a vest must not only stop a bullet, it must also not allow a "dent" over a certain size to be made in the testing media the vest is covering. The testing media is modeling clay. The problem is that a vest may stop a certain bullet with say, nine layers of material (kevlar, twaron, spectra, etc.) but it must be more than twice as thick to avoid making too big a dent in the clay. This results in a vest that is much heavier, bulkier, and uncomfortable than what is really needed to do the job. The NIJ's belief is that a dent over the size they say would result in the officer being incapacitated by the impact of the bullet. A lot of testing and real-life experience disputes this claim. Besides that, if the vest is too heavy, hot, or bulky the officer WON'T BE WEARING IT! The company I worked for sold armor all over the world. Vests (and other items) that didn't have to meet the NIJ standards, just the realistic standard of stopping bullets, and we had a lot a shootings survived by people the NIJ would have us believe should be dirt-napping.

The NIJ standard isn't based on good science. Modeling clay became the media of choice because...it's what they had lying around when they formulated the test. I believe that they have missed the point of body armor.
« Last Edit: January 15, 2005, 12:29:11 AM by Deadeye Dave »
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A man may fight for many things. His country, his friends, his principles, the glistening tear on the cheek of a golden child. But personally, I'd mud-wrestle my own mother for a ton of cash, an amusing clock and a sack of French porn.

triggerman-t

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  • Posts: 11
Re: Police wearing vests!
« Reply #4 on: January 15, 2005, 04:50:39 PM »

correct me if I'm mis-informed and maybe you can help clear me up.
I was under the understanding that the minimum "dent" was based on minimum depth than can be allowed without causeing internal injuries that could result in complications and possible death?

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Deadeye Dave

  • Level 2
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  • Posts: 69
Re: Police wearing vests!
« Reply #5 on: January 18, 2005, 12:55:00 AM »

That was the theory behind the "backface deformation" standard. However, real life often does not fit the theory. This one doesn't.  Many, many shootings have been survived by people wearing non-NIJ certified vests. One of the vests made by the company I worked for was worn by a German police officer who took a subgun hit at close range, never lost his feet and returned fire fatally wounding the attacker.  On the other hand, I know of a case in which a Wildlife officer was killed by a .45-70 round that didn't penetrate the first layer of his (NIJ certified) vest. Hydrostatic shock from the impact did him in.

My old employer made vests that fit the NIJ standard for sale in the US and vests that just did the job for sale elsewhere in the world. The vests made for foreign sale were more comfortable to wear and hence, resulted in more lives saved.
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A man may fight for many things. His country, his friends, his principles, the glistening tear on the cheek of a golden child. But personally, I'd mud-wrestle my own mother for a ton of cash, an amusing clock and a sack of French porn.

Deadeye Dave

  • Level 2
  • ***
  • Posts: 69
Re: Police wearing vests!
« Reply #6 on: January 20, 2005, 12:14:18 AM »

Funny article on this subject from the Onion:

http://theonion.com/news/index.php?issue=4103
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A man may fight for many things. His country, his friends, his principles, the glistening tear on the cheek of a golden child. But personally, I'd mud-wrestle my own mother for a ton of cash, an amusing clock and a sack of French porn.
 

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