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  • May 22, 2012, 10:35:49 AM
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Author Topic: Knife Cancer Grip  (Read 2717 times)

redcap

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Knife Cancer Grip
« on: August 19, 2007, 10:02:40 PM »

Hock's latest blog reminds me of another no-no I hate to see: the open hand twirl with just the finger and thumb holding the stick.  I have also seen it with people holding knives in a fancy three finger only method with thumb and pinky pointing in opposite directions, especialy when doing their idea of Espada Y Daga. Yeah, I know they are doing the stick twirl out of range  and thus can avoid a strike to the stick that, due to their lame two digit grip would see it flying off into the audience but that is beside the point for me.  Why do that in the first place when proper technique and enough practise has you twirling the stick just as fluidly while holding it with all your fingers and thus never risking an easy disarm? As for the knife grip, are they that much in control of the fight they can posture like that? 

Sam Corral, my main FMA teacher had killed men with a knife and he was taught by men who had also killed with a knife and he had one grip.  A hammer grip in either knife or reverse position.  He acknowledge other grips, sabre grips, file grips and whatever else you fancied but his belief was that you wanted to have the maximum grip on the weapon and that meant as many fingers and your thumb holding it as you could still use.  He had seen knives knocked out of hands and wrenched from grips when caught in ribs and so on, hence his belief in the hammer grip as the safest.

I don;t know where the photo came from but I have seen this "style" for many years, first with JKD-Kali people and since then with many others.  Modern media may be guilty of helping a bad habit spread beyond the original habitee! I would (respectfully) suggest these people are fine martial artists and no doubt highly skilled and dedicated but I don;t think they have had a lot of, dare I say it, hands on experience.  Neither have I when it comes to killing people with knives, never done it and don't ever want to but if I had to I am damn sure I would be gripping the thing like glue!

In a similar vein, how about those who do the flash punch and slap stuff while clicking their fingers and slapping their biceps?  Looks and sounds peachy but a little "Two handed anti-splash grip" for my taste.  Cheers, Redcap
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grlaun

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Re: Knife Cancer Grip
« Reply #1 on: August 20, 2007, 06:00:54 AM »

Was watching a silat video in which the cancer grip was addresses specifically & by name by the host.  He ridiculed the label then proceeded to tell his viewers that is was designed for drawing speed...!

I nearly fell off the chair!  I've watched several times and even tried to change my grip to see if its true - can't seem to see a difference.  I don't think its harmful to use as a drawing method but I do agree about its uselessness in fighting.

my .02
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kamagong

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Re: Knife Cancer Grip
« Reply #2 on: August 20, 2007, 09:02:13 AM »

Gotta agree with Rawhide.   Try using the "cancer" grip on the warpost.  Doesn't last long, because you can't get a decent slash or stab with any "english" on it.  It is also likely that the blade will go flying out of your hands or you will end up with stitches because it will run up on the blade.  Bad all round.  Would you hold a hammer that way, or a prybar, or a screwdriver?  Things should look pretty by accident, functional first!! Just my .02 also.
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Hock

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Re: Knife Cancer Grip
« Reply #3 on: August 20, 2007, 05:44:29 PM »

That would be Victor Deathuoars.

He had me in for a seminar in LA years ago and I spent quite a bit of time with him and he showed me segments of his silat.
Hey, I like the guy. He is unique. BUT he is a little crazy and because of this...he has a growing enemy list. It gets worse each year. I am not too sure that I might well be on his enemy list, but he is not on mine. (My enemy list does not contain martial artists, just criminals, enemy soldiers and communists. Never trust a communist).

PAC Vic told me that in the indo world, the raised, cancer grip thumb is used for cross draws of Indo, edged weapons. The thumb is raisd so a person can feel the knife being drawn and pulled across his body. So he "knows" where it is in the draw process (has this been a problem before? Whatever) Victor looked me dead in the eye and said, "you cannot and should not fight with this thumb grip," agreeing with me totally on this issue of "loose grips - sink edged ships."

I have heard some talk since, like that Rawhide mentioned, that on this film he kind of strays from this hardline he took with me and what he says on film is a little gray. I also think the the film was made AFTER I made his enemy list - ergo some remarks?

Hock

« Last Edit: August 21, 2007, 07:50:19 AM by Hock »
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grlaun

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Re: Knife Cancer Grip
« Reply #4 on: August 20, 2007, 10:21:06 PM »

Yeah, whats with 'feeling' the blade drawn?  Don't you have a grip on the handle?  isn't it freakin' hot in Jakarta?  Aren't the clothes pretty thin?  Oh well, its just me...

Yeah, never trust a communist.  Sneaky little bastards.
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mleone

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Re: Knife Cancer Grip
« Reply #5 on: August 22, 2007, 04:50:23 AM »

Yep thats from their Blitzing blades dvd..
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lakerssportsfan

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Re: Knife Cancer Grip
« Reply #6 on: August 23, 2007, 11:16:13 PM »

whats the cancer grip? ???
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redcap

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Re: Knife Cancer Grip
« Reply #7 on: August 24, 2007, 02:58:36 AM »

Grab the knife and let your pinky and your thumb point away from each other, like you were "hangin' loose hawaii".  The three fingers left, the index, middle and ring, are the only thing holding on to your weapon.   Now do some flashy FMA moves with it and amaze your friends.  Feels great, almost as good as someone else holding it........Redcap
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Hock

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Re: Knife Cancer Grip
« Reply #8 on: August 24, 2007, 05:20:33 AM »

In the time when people can succesfully argue for only using the hammer grip - the vice like grip -  the Cancer grip is the complete opposite. There are some FMA teachers that have innocently replicated that grip and movement and passed on on and aon, like a germ, like cancer - which is were I started the nickname in the 1990s...about 1994. It spread worldwide with my first knife book.
It is when someone hold's the knife:

- in a saber grip
- with their thumb up and,
- the ball of their thumb up off the knife handle and backstrap.

This means that you are only holding the knife only with your four, lower cupped fingers. The knife can come easily free.

You can't knife fight like this. You can't spar or duel:
- you may lose your knife in the simple, accidental contact.
- you can't stab as the knife with raise up and come free.
- you can't gut a deer like this.
- you can't carve a Thanksgiving turkey like this
- if you sneeze on your knife, it might fly from your hand

Of course you have never seen or heard of this Lakersportsfan. You have not been corrupted by aspects of the Filipino Martial Arts! You have not tried to move and look smooth and cool as a major, end goal.
I was in Euorpe and talked about this and some of the FMA people were shocked. A year later one came back (from a Pekiti group by the way) and confronted me...

"I went back to my people and they told me...'what Hock doesn't understand is that when we actually stab? We put the thumb back on the knife."   

So I said, "you mean when you are sparring or knife ground fighting (they almost never do, if ever) you can hold the knife in this dangerous manner, despite the fact that there will be accidental, jarring contact and you cold loose the knife?"

Of course there can be no answer for them. Just excuses to cover great, great grandmasters mistakes. One slim, reason is that the raised thumb can be used to hook the oponent's wrist. A odd, lrare move. Okay, but does that mean a student should spend 40% or even 20% of their time holding a knife like that?  Some FMAs use it 100% of the time. 100%! They are 99.7% wrong-headed, unpractical and untactical.
 
This term has given me grief. People around the world have said I have insulted Dan Inosanto. Oh? Don't recall ever using his name back then? Kelly Warden called me complaining that I personally insulted him. Two wit, I explained that I have only seen about ten minutes of an old stick video of his and had zero idea about ANY knife grip he used. Then we realized some middleman knucklehead was just trying to cause trouble between. I still don't know if Kelly ever did, but I'll bet he doesn't. 

I could probably scratch together a long list all the hassles I have had since I used the term. But of you are using that grip to shadowbox, etc...re-consider.

The open pinky thing? That is even worse. Add the up and raised thumb with ipen and dropped pinky and you have some knife of lost mind disease.

Looking cool for cool's sake. A fighter should not train or try to look smooth, graceful or cool. A fighter should look disgusting. A fighter, in action, should turn heads away in shock. When you are in action, people should say,

                                                                               "Oh my God!"
                                                                                  and not                                                                           
                                                                              "isn't he graceful."

If you look good while fighting? It should be an accident. Not a goal.

Hock
« Last Edit: August 24, 2007, 06:06:30 PM by Hock »
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Benjamin Liu

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Re: Knife Cancer Grip
« Reply #9 on: August 24, 2007, 05:35:45 PM »

I've not trained with many instructors, but the ones I've trained with in the US don't use this idiotic grip, but then again these guys mostly just train and don't collect the latest books and videos. 

Aside from being a stupid grip, one book I have calls it "The Filipino Grip," implying that Filipinos use this grip.  No Filipino I know, in the US or the Philippines, use this grip when cutting food or other uses.  The only reference I've seen to something similar in a Filipino source is one position the hand is in when flipping open a Balisong, and that is obviously not a grip to hold a knife.

Has anyone seen this grip in the Philippines, and not by people reading knife books published in America? 

Since a pistol grip is similar to a saber grip, maybe someone can make a new style of "tactical" shooting based on the Cancer Grip since not using your thumb supposedly makes a stronger grip than using your thumb.  For added "coolness" one could use one gun in each hand and hold them sideways.  :D
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Hock

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Re: Knife Cancer Grip
« Reply #10 on: August 24, 2007, 05:55:35 PM »

Has anyone seen this grip in the Philippines, and not by people reading knife books published in America? 

Oh yes. lesser known FMA Filipino guys. I hear about with some frequency from people I met.

Yes, when leading a group, even Inosanto slips into it. Someone lucky enough to catch Dan teaching a class at his Los Angeles Academy has, as late as two years ago, saw him doing some manuevers and leading the group and slipping in and out of the high-thumb grip. Of course Dan is not an "original" Filipino-FMA per-say, but a serious students of many the orginals, where i would assume he got it.

And you can see Pekit tersia people do it and comes from the homeland.

If my memory serves me well, in the 1980s that grip was often called the Filipino Grip pretty offiicially. I am just settling in back in Texas and my books are a mess, in piles everywhere, but I am pretty sure I have Filipino books with Filipinos photographed in those grips. But I would have to do some searching. I will eventually stumble upon these books when trying to group them.

(You can see the grip in the FMA-based, Masters of the Blade book mentioned here also, but maybe by Americans and Europeans - but you know - it had to come from somewhere that someone found authentic.) There are some photos in there of the open pinky AND raised thumb.

Hock
« Last Edit: August 24, 2007, 06:07:32 PM by Hock »
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Hock

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Re: Knife Cancer Grip
« Reply #11 on: August 24, 2007, 06:10:15 PM »

http://hockscombatforum.com/index.php/topic,2087.0.html

And this starts off a photo but it is not as dramatic as some practitioners can get.

Hock

redcap

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Re: Knife Cancer Grip
« Reply #12 on: August 24, 2007, 06:16:21 PM »

The open pinky thing? That is even worse. Add the up and raised thumb with ipen and dropped pinky and you have some knife of lost mind disease.


Hock

Sorry Hock, I guess I was talking final stage, terminal knife cancer grip!  I remember Sam Corral (my FMA teacher) seeing a video with one of the stable of JKD-Kali athletes using the four finger, thumb up knife cancer grip and he chuckled.  I asked him why and he just said "I would like to fight him, for money.  No way I could lose!" He only ever held a weapon in a hammer grip.  Cheers, Perry
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“No man knows the hour of his ending, nor can he choose the place or the manner of his going. To each it is given to die proudly, to die well, and this is, indeed, the final measure of the man.” Louis L’Amour

mleone

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Re: Knife Cancer Grip
« Reply #13 on: August 28, 2007, 10:07:32 AM »

The Martialist is from Phil Elmore was the person to put comments about the cancer grip online.

Geoff and I noticed it on a silat video, that it was a retort to Hock..

Here is the guys website in regards to Hocks comments. He reminds me of the Michael Moore of Martial arts...

http://www.themartialist.com/pecom/knifetraining.htm
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Hock

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Re: Knife Cancer Grip
« Reply #14 on: August 28, 2007, 11:29:37 AM »

Phil is misunderstood. He is misunderstanding, my misunderstanding of the general misunderstanding.

Understood!
Hock
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