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Author Topic: James LaFond Side Kick  (Read 4787 times)

cfadeftac

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James LaFond Side Kick
« on: September 01, 2007, 09:22:40 PM »

Hello All,

I have read James LaFond's book The Fighting Edge and have just read his new article in Black Belt on the KO, in both he mentions the side kickas the number one fight finishing kick.  Also I seem to recall Nick Hughes mentioning a study where they found the side kick to be the easiest to learn and use for LEOs.  Now I have noticed a distinct lack of use of this particular kick in MMA and I have even noticed that it is practiced less and less in most schools (everybody loves a roundhouse kick it seems). 

So do you practise this kick, that seems to have a fair street record, regularly and if not why?

Thanks for your time all

Andrew

PS I have used this kick, which I learned before any formal MA training from Kill or Get Killed,l successfully so I am personally biased.
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Hock

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Re: James LaFond Side Kick
« Reply #1 on: September 01, 2007, 09:27:31 PM »

Before the converstion begins?
In proper training, the side kick goes to the SIDE! Or to the 3 o'clock or 9 o'clock direction.
Thrusting kicks to to 12 o'clock are...welll...front thrusting kicks.
The point being that you have to defend yourself sometimes from attacks to your side - which is of course - why God first called it a side kick in the bible.

Reverend Hock
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« Last Edit: September 02, 2007, 06:17:45 AM by Hock »
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redcap

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Re: James LaFond Side Kick
« Reply #2 on: September 01, 2007, 11:02:47 PM »

Andrew, I have used it successfully several times and love it, especially if you have a hold of one yob and one of his mates rushes in to help him.  I would think it isn;t used much in MMA as it is best aimed at the knee joint.  You can aim for the stomach but perhaps MMA competitors are switched on and easily able to catch the leg?

The Savate toolbag has a nice version of it also, in fact I think that is where Bruce Lee got his JKD version from.  As Hock says, to the 12 oclock position it becomes a front kick but if you turn side on as you kick to what was once your front and 12 o'clock, then you can side kick that way too.  I say it is a kick sideways not a kick to the side as such.   ;D Redcap
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JimH

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Re: James LaFond Side Kick
« Reply #3 on: September 02, 2007, 06:54:43 AM »

Another question is are we talking about ,as Hock said,the Three o'clock,Proper Sidekick,or the one that many throw now as almost a six O'clock side kick which is really a Back Kick??

So Many now teach the Back Kick,which employs the butt ,and call it a side kick,over what used to be a side kick delivered straight to the side (thus termed side kick)

The side Kick was Knee was brought up forward,like a Front kick,but instead of using just the quads to extend forward,the upper body titlts away from the target and the edge of the foot or bottom of the foot wasdirected straight to the side ,using the leg ,some butt and hips for power

I employ the Side Kick for a majority of my Balance displacements.

I do not throw High side kicks anymore,I use it to the inside and outside of the opponents knees ,or close to the knee.(skightly lower or higher)

I close the gap,entering at slight outside angle to the opponent getting parallel or almost and deliver the Kick.
(side kick/downwardside kick)

I also use it as  a stop kick ,meaning I deliver it to the opponents legs as they drive in,again the target is the knee.(this is from the front)
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redcap

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Re: James LaFond Side Kick
« Reply #4 on: September 02, 2007, 06:59:38 AM »

That's the one, although as I said, you turn side on to deliver it to a target to your front etc.  Redcap
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Zigman

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Re: James LaFond Side Kick
« Reply #5 on: September 16, 2007, 06:47:41 AM »

The side kick is a great kick. I have used it extensively in the ring and in street altercations.  When a little extra range is provided a side kick is usually the best weapon to drop the assailant to the pavement leave some permanent damage.  Directed either to the front of the knee or side, it definitely limits your attackers mobility.

Greg
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Kentbob

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Re: James LaFond Side Kick
« Reply #6 on: September 16, 2007, 10:45:35 AM »

Okay, so are you saying that even if I turn my body, so that my right side (rear side) is presented to the target, and kick sideways at him, in what is the 12 o' clock direction, that this is no longer a side kick?  I thought the side kick was so-called because it involved the side of your body, not the relation of the target to your body.  Confirm?  Clarify?


Kent
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JimH

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Re: James LaFond Side Kick
« Reply #7 on: September 16, 2007, 11:51:59 AM »

If I face 12 o'clock,straught ahead,the side kick is done in the 2-4 o'clock or 8-10 o'clock range.

If the kick goes back ward and involves more of the butt then it is a rear kick.

If I face 12 o'clock and the target is to my front I must pivot so that my left or right shoulder faces the target,lift and chamber the leg,extend the leg out to the side,the direction my shoulder faces.

If as I extend I rotate my hip over and my shoulder turns away from the target I am most likely doing a rear /back kick.

Here is a back kick clip,that many today call a side kick.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=63M3QrYtGN0&mode=related&search=
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cfadeftac

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Re: James LaFond Side Kick
« Reply #8 on: September 16, 2007, 11:42:49 PM »

In my Kempo days we mostly did true side kicks from the waist down and anything in higher sparring became the more modified half back kick mutt that Jim H is talking about.  Personally I find the half back kick very powerful but slow, definitely something to use in sparring where it can be set up, not much use in close to an opponent.

Andrew
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Kentbob

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Re: James LaFond Side Kick
« Reply #9 on: September 17, 2007, 12:43:12 AM »

If I face 12 o'clock,straught ahead,the side kick is done in the 2-4 o'clock or 8-10 o'clock range.

If the kick goes back ward and involves more of the butt then it is a rear kick.

If I face 12 o'clock and the target is to my front I must pivot so that my left or right shoulder faces the target,lift and chamber the leg,extend the leg out to the side,the direction my shoulder faces.

If as I extend I rotate my hip over and my shoulder turns away from the target I am most likely doing a rear /back kick.

Here is a back kick clip,that many today call a side kick.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=63M3QrYtGN0&mode=related&search=



Now, that too me is a spinning back kick, not just a back kick.  Which is worse than useless in a brawl, to me.  I get dizzy from them real easily.

Now, if I turn my non-kicking leg so that my knee is facing away from my attacker, does that make my kick a sidekick, or back kick?


Kent
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redcap

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Re: James LaFond Side Kick
« Reply #10 on: September 17, 2007, 05:33:34 AM »

I'm with the paratrooper on this one.  That was a spinning back kick when I was taught it.  To me the side part is due to the fact I am side on to my target when I kick.  So even if the target is coming at me square on fromt he front, if I pivot on one foot and chamber the knee, tutn in the hip and then launch the kick so that I have to look over the shoulder of the kicking leg to face my target and my chest is facing away from him at 90 degrees.....that is a side kick.  Redcap
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JimH

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Re: James LaFond Side Kick
« Reply #11 on: September 17, 2007, 06:57:19 AM »

Yes,the clip is a back Kick as indicated in my post.

The performance style of that back kick spinning or not is my point,many are using that kick and claiming it as a side kick.

There is a guy who Teaches TKD near me and he teaches the Back Kick as the side kick,toes down,engage the hip and Butt,contact is the heal,(there is no Blade of the foot contact).

When I asked what is a back kick ?
He says it is when the target is to the rear and the foot/leg comes up forward in a slight chamber and is then shot straight back while the upper body bends forward,looking back over the shoulder to try and acquire the target.

If we look at Bruce Lee clips of his 3-5 step "Side Kick" we will see that he ended many of those kicks by rolling his hip and turning the intial side kick into a more powerful back kick.

Bruce Lee Training video:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qEeRslC4PnY

If we look at 1:06-1:08 we see Bruce execute a side Kick into a Heavy Bag,he finishes by turning away using his butt,so it became a back kick,some call it a side-back kick?,he does manage to keep his foot parallel to the ground.

Kent:
The non kicking leg can be at 90 degree or point 180 degrees,depending upon how it is taught.
The best for support is supporting foot turned to 180 degrees.
The kick can start with the stationary leg at 90 degrees and at the point just before impact the stationary leg/foot pivots to 180 degrees.

Again a side kick is weaker than a back kick because the muscles used are smaller.
Once the hip is rolled over and the primary moving mucle becomes the Butt,then it is a back kick.

When the toes begin to point more downward than parallel to the ground the more we are ,most likely,doing a Back Kick.
(the more the toes point down the more we roll the hip and engage the butt)
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Kentbob

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Re: James LaFond Side Kick
« Reply #12 on: September 17, 2007, 08:07:04 AM »

Quote
When the toes begin to point more downward than parallel to the ground the more we are ,most likely,doing a Back Kick.
(the more the toes point down the more we roll the hip and engage the butt)


Okay, now we're on the same sheet of music.  I'm in agreement with you, and that's how I teach the back kick, is toes pointing down, although I don't really make a big deal out of it. 


Kent
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Hock

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Re: James LaFond Side Kick
« Reply #13 on: December 24, 2007, 07:58:36 PM »

Lafond!
Almost never heard of him but now I remember.

He is the guy whose only claim to fame is he worked in a factory on midnight shifts in a big city and while on a lunch breaks...saw a lot of bad creepy, bad stuff on the mean, midnight city streets at 3 am. Something like that. This qualified him as a knife expert. Okay. He also studied "karate." Yeah! That was the copy of his old ads! Circa...what 1995-ish?

Wow. That just rockets him to the tippy-top of my expert list.

Hock

whitewolf

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Re: James LaFond Side Kick
« Reply #14 on: December 25, 2007, 01:32:31 AM »

All-I read the posts here about side  kick/back kick-side/back kick-wow-here is some history about back  kicks:

When I went for my first promotion in traditional karate I was driven along with a  couple of  other young hard  chargers to Jersey City NJ where we had to  give a demo for the
chief instructor on our kata-after which we sparred with the younger brother of the chief instructor-this was a introduction to the back kick (called by some the mule kick) the reason it was called a mule kick was that when it connected you felt like you were kicked by a mule. The man we sparred with used that rear kick all the time and we could not get near him.This was full contact with no protective equipment.
He would turn and drive his rear leg  back and make contact with his heel into your body.

His name was Nagle-the younger brother of Mr Don Nagle.

For you that dont know about Mr Don  Nagle among other things he was a undercover police officer in Jersey  city during the Black Panther era. Guess that says it all.

The instructor who took  me  there was Gary Alexander.

Forgetting about politics - these two guys really are part of Martial arts history in the US.

Whitewolf


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JimH

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Re: James LaFond Side Kick
« Reply #15 on: December 25, 2007, 08:08:08 AM »

Nagel and Alexander,Great Names from the Past.
I had opportunity to Meet Master Don Nagle a few times and have opportunity to meet ,hang out with and train with Master Gary Alexander a Fighting Legend and still a Man Spreading the word and Teaching his art.

My opinion of the Front,round house,side and back kicks:

The Front Kick is a nice Kick for a quick delivery which can be of surpise with a pretty good chance of hitting its target and doing damage or getting a reaction to work off of.
(Disadvantage, it is the Closest KICK,in which your upper body is closest to the opponent)

The Roundhouse has mostly,thanks to UFC/MMA and cross training, become the Muay Thai version.Very powerful  and MAY cause damage or injury if delivered right on the downward angle to the opponents knee.
(The second closest kick)

The Side Kick is a Great powerful kick if delivered to the midsection or lower and if delivered with Body Momentum over just leg/hip strength.
I Like it to the legs,knees specific.
(this kick puts you at a Good distance to your opponent  as the hip to the side gives you several more inches of distance and the kick can allow you to lean away,though some lean in to make  more body mass contact)

The Back kick is the most powerful kick as the largest muscles of the body are used,the Butt,thighs and if combined with body weight behind the contact it can do some Great damage.
(This Kick puts you at the longest distance of your upper body to the opponents)

For years I trained for High Kicks,Head hunting  and midsection and up kicking targets,Now I train for Midsection or lower targets and go for destruction over scoring points or contact with heavy muscled areas which absorb the impact.

Close the gap and destroy the knee from the front side or back and drive it into the ground causing balance displacement and making the opponent worry about the ground rather than srtiking at me,lol.
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whitewolf

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Re: James LaFond Side Kick
« Reply #16 on: December 25, 2007, 11:48:44 PM »

JimH-I have a lot of  stories about those two  guys-I am very close to Gary-Been to  his school in the past-and to   his yearly award ceramony .
As far as the kicks you discribe-I cant kick  high  any  more (never really  could-lol)
I as you go  for the knee area and close in to area right above the groin in the very  lower part of the stomach.
I now train to strike  with knee when close in and strike at  least 2/3 times in sucession
while holding opponents head and spinning him around first. (does that  make sense-hope so)
One story was Don ad gary got into a rumble in Kinston NC-Don kicked a guy in the tail  bone with  his  foot and that ended the fight right then.
anyhow-stay safe whitewolf
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JimH

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Re: James LaFond Side Kick
« Reply #17 on: December 27, 2007, 06:47:53 PM »

Whitewolf,
I will be seeing Gm Gary Alexander in two weeks.
Stay safe .
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whitewolf

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Re: James LaFond Side Kick
« Reply #18 on: December 28, 2007, 04:33:45 AM »

JimH-when you see Gary please tell him that he should always stay safe-and that i  owe him a dinner-whitewolf
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JimH

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Re: James LaFond Side Kick
« Reply #19 on: December 28, 2007, 08:58:28 AM »

Whitewolf ,
I will pass on the message.
Stay Safe
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