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  • December 18, 2018, 04:07:39 PM
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Author Topic: Use of Momentum as Fight Equalizer  (Read 4323 times)

Tank

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Use of Momentum as Fight Equalizer
« on: October 02, 2007, 11:15:17 AM »

First of all, I am not much on Black Belt Magazine; however, they did have a pretty good article written about making the most of momentum. I got to thinking back to Engineering school(BORING) and the article really began to make great scientific sense(As in the SFC concept).

As Hock says, if you take Pee Wee Herman he will never be able to punch like Mike Tyson, but could you modify his technique (hips turning, leg push, etc.) to make him punch like a middleweight or even a light heavyweight? The Science involved with not only punches but kicks, rams, etc. is very intriguing and I just wondered what y'all thought? :)
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Kentbob

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Re: Use of Momentum as Fight Equalizer
« Reply #1 on: October 02, 2007, 11:24:14 AM »

I think you could do that, but there are much more effective techniques for fighting the Mike Tyson's of the world, instead of relying on punching, and even making the most out of punching.  The way I make use of momentum is not by trying to make the most of my own, but trying to make the most of the bad guy's.  Triangular footwork allows me to place myself at the bad guy's most vulnerable point, while he's still recovering from his attack.  And that, to me, is worth a lot more than trying to teach the proverbial 98 pound weakling how to hit like Oscar De La Hoya.  After all, when you're on your opponent's backside, it doesn't take much to kick a knee out, punch/slap a kidney, or hammer fist a neck.  It may not take them out immediately, but it will wear them down some.  And really, we shouldn't be trying to teach a 98 pound weakling to knock someone out, because it's just on the low end of probability.  My professional opinion is that time is better spent learning a variety of strikes, and how to appy those strikes to vulnerable areas. 


Kent
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Dawg

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Re: Use of Momentum as Fight Equalizer
« Reply #2 on: October 03, 2007, 12:52:40 PM »

While I agree that punches would probably be my last resort against a "Mike Tyson" style opponent, I don't believe we should dismiss the advantage of using momentum as a fight equalizer. I agree with Kentbob that our priority should be teaching a variety of strikes, and how to apply them to the most vulnerable areas of an assailant. I also prefer to take advantage of my opponents lack of understanding of momentum, whether it be from an overly aggressive attack or just using the wrong weapon at the wrong range (i.e. winding up a big haymaker in clinching range).
My opinion (which, with only five additional dollars will get you a Mocha Java at Books-a-Million!) is that learning to strike with all the power available to you, utlizing every trick of the trade (including the use of momentum), has the potential to end a conflict quickly. If our hypothetical "98 pound weakling" has learned not only how and where to strike, but has also learned how to do so with maximum efficiency and power...well, that kind of sounds like "equalization" to me.
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whitewolf

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Re: Use of Momentum as Fight Equalizer
« Reply #3 on: October 03, 2007, 08:08:21 PM »

All-I have been reading the posts about equalization, i am a firm believer that one of the biggest things that the "Peewee Hermans" of the world who get attacked need to  be trained in is-how to overcome Hypervigiliance-(where one freezes in place when confronted with a spontaneous and overwelming incident because they cannot believe it is occuring,or does not know how to  respond to the incident and does not act to counter the attack.)-This should be drilled into their head that they have to practise and review what could be called immediate action drills.
Development of muscle memory in close quarter fighting-by repeating drills that the instructor teaches is  needed for "Peewee" to immediately counter and overcome by shocking the attacker is needed.
I agree momentum is needed because without it the counter will not work.
As i was taught in the past-I always show the student that his/her use of momentum will assist in helping bowl over the opponent-along with a positive mind set to put the attacker down immendiately...(again-by freezing-one loses.)-whitewolf in kuwait.
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Naso Karas

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Re: Use of Momentum as Fight Equalizer
« Reply #4 on: October 16, 2007, 08:13:08 PM »

I read the article in BB, too.  It was right on as far as the sport-model goes.  You need to get as much behind the strike as you can without telegraphing it.  Momentum IS the great equalizer in the ring.  Gonzaga vs. CroCop is a good example.  However, when it comes to street defense, it doesn't take much momentum to stick a finger 2 knuckles deep in an eye-socket.  I guess what I'm saying is train what you do.  If you're into self-defense, train for deceptive shots.  If you're into fighting in the ring, practice your power and body mechanics.  All of that has a lot to do with how much time you have to devote to your training.  If you don't have a lot of time, it's best to stick with Q&D (Quick & Dirty) stuff.  Hell, even if you do have a lot of time, you should still be working on Q&D!
There's no equalizer like a good eye-jab!
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Bri Thai

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Re: Use of Momentum as Fight Equalizer
« Reply #5 on: October 17, 2007, 07:37:24 AM »

Interesting thread.

It opens up a discussion on what is "efffective" in a fight, and what is not.

Yes, some people will give up the ghost if they get poked in the eye.  Some will if they receive a sickening blow to the kidneys.  On and on it goes.  And, of course, some will give up if you give them a mean stare and say "I'm going to hurt you." -  ;D

But, do you know what?  The guys we should fear most are the ones who won't stop coming at you because of any kind of pain.  There are even cases of people being stabbed, or even shot, without even realising it until after the event.  Even if you inflict mortal wounds, a dying man can still kill you before he realises he lost.  That's partly why Hock tells you to draw attention to the bad guys wounds in the Ground fighting tapes!

The only real way to win with any certainty is either a kill (a quick one!)or a knock out. 

To labour the point - stab Mike Tyson in the head and he may still be able to eat your throat.  Knock him out and he can't.

Now, of course that is much easier sad than done.  But nobody with a brain will tell you that fighting is easy!  The Tysons of this world don't go down easy, and Pee Wee Herman is always going to struggle against him. 

But there's a million logical falacies in the martial arts, and one of them is that if a small man cannot do a technique with any real power (like a knock out blow), then give him a technique that doesn't need size (like an eye jab) and this will give him a chance.  It's like "its ok to be small and weak.  You can still win" 

But, without great luck, that is nonsense.  The bigger and stronger you are, the better chance you have.  That's just a fact.  If you don't think so then imagine you could magically grow 30lbs of functional muscle over night.  You get more weight and more strength, much more.  Are you going to be a better fighter in the morning, or a worse fighter?  Not too hard to figure out, is it?

Another analogy, this time re driving.  We have the skill (the driver himself) and the tool (the car).  This represents the fighters skill.... with his tool being his body.

You could put the World Formula 1 champion in a Vauxhall Corsa 1.1, and someone who has only just passed his test in a Porsche.  The odds are stacked massively in favour of the beginner - because of the tool he gets to employ.

You need the skills of course, but you still need the tools.  You need to produce as good a body for fighting as you can, and that includes size and strength.

You jab away at eyes all you want.  Like I said, sometimes people will throw in the towel.  But those out there who are the real threat won't. 

And those small vulnerable students?  Yes!  Give them the skills!  But, if they won't or can't turn their bodies into sizeable fighting machines, lets not kid ourselves that teaching them to strike some so called vulnerable area is going to equalise things for them.  They're just less likely to win - fact.

Now there are always going to be some exceptions.  Even a dwarf can become great at basketball..... But see how much better he is if he wakes up next morning and is 7 feet tall.
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Naso Karas

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Re: Use of Momentum as Fight Equalizer
« Reply #6 on: October 18, 2007, 02:35:40 PM »

Quote
The guys we should fear most are the ones who won't stop coming at you because of any kind of pain.


At some point, we have to decide what an effective equalizer is.  Just because you're big and strong doesn't mean that you can stop these people. 

Quote
That's partly why Hock tells you to draw attention to the bad guys wounds in the Ground fighting tapes!

How hard is it to draw attention to an eye injury?  If it doesn't stop the guy, hopefully you get enough time to plan an escape or regain your composure enough to mount a more effective offensive.

Quote
But there's a million logical falacies in the martial arts, and one of them is that if a small man cannot do a technique with any real power (like a knock out blow), then give him a technique that doesn't need size (like an eye jab) and this will give him a chance.  It's like "its ok to be small and weak.  You can still win"


I was at a Bart Vale seminar some years ago and there was a guy there who was saying that the technique Bart showed wouldn't work for him.  Bart said "Lift weights!"  I thought that was funny then, but now I see the truth in it.  I don't agree with a lot of the people who say "it's o.k. to be small and weak", but I'll bet with the right training, even PeeWee Herman could choke out Matt Serra after he hits him with his car!



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Bri Thai

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Re: Use of Momentum as Fight Equalizer
« Reply #7 on: October 19, 2007, 11:39:51 AM »

Of course being big and strong doesn't guarantee anything.  It increases your odds.  There are no guarantees.

It is difficult to draw attention to any injury if the injured guy is jumping on your head - something that many can still do whether or not they've been poked in the eye.  But no one can do if they are unconcious.

Pee Wee Herman could do anything to Matt Serra after hitting him with his car.  But I'm sure Matt wouldn't attack until li'l ole Pee Wee got out.
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Naso Karas

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Re: Use of Momentum as Fight Equalizer
« Reply #8 on: October 19, 2007, 10:20:14 PM »

Bri Thai,

You're right about both points.

Quote
It is difficult to draw attention to any injury if the injured guy is jumping on your head - something that many can still do whether or not they've been poked in the eye.  But no one can do if they are unconscious.

It seems like we agree on the size and strength issue overall.  All I'm saying is that a guy like PeeWee won't have a chance in a "fair" fight against a bigger, stronger opponent so he would have to resort to some dirty tricks or just flat out avoid confrontation at all costs at all times. 

Just because the odds are stacked against you doesn't mean you have to fail.  Remember that it's not what you fight with, but rather what you fight for that determines if you're a warrior or a thug.

Besides, I don't think anyone could effectively injure someone who's stomping on their head.  The idea is NOT to get yourself in that position in the first place, so do what you must.  Spit in his face, kick him in the thingy, poke him in the eye or whatever it takes to give yourself time to escape.  Street or ring?  What is it that you're training for? 

If we're talking about weight classes and such, even PeeWee could win depending on his ability to effectively throw a punch or kick.  That's where the momentum argument can be made.  If PeeWee hits someone with his car, all of a sudden that 98lb. weakling has a lot of momentum without any training.  So what's the situation?  That will dictate the response/tactic/strategy.
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usks1

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Re: Use of Momentum as Fight Equalizer
« Reply #9 on: October 20, 2007, 08:07:39 AM »

Here is a true master of momentum. Old school grappling.. Made me smile.  ;D

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CUne9Xg55og
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whitewolf

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Re: Use of Momentum as Fight Equalizer
« Reply #10 on: October 20, 2007, 11:28:57 AM »

Beautiful to watch-and he is older when he was doing the judo than i  am-i watched it 5 times all ready-whitewolf
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Bri Thai

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Re: Use of Momentum as Fight Equalizer
« Reply #11 on: October 20, 2007, 04:48:29 PM »

I still think the smaller guy can win.  Most people can generate KO power as long as they also develop the ability to apply it against the jaw line or similar.

It's just that the odds are against them.

I guess we boradly agree.  Work on the technique AND work on the size / strength / fitness.



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Naso Karas

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Re: Use of Momentum as Fight Equalizer
« Reply #12 on: October 20, 2007, 04:49:40 PM »

Yup.

You nailed it!

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