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[shastana]

OK, I am asking folks to divulge their knowledge for us to discuss what works best for them in terrain/situations you normally don't train in.  Most of us have great UC tactics that work really well in flat and solid terrain, but what about those times when good old earth is just plain difficult?  Have you trained in water, deep mud, snow or very steep terrain?  What about inside a car or theater while sitting?  Basically, non-UFC type terrain conditions that people can find themselves in at any time.  Now how does the TKD kicks and BJJ grappling work for you if at all?  If you train in these environments or think along these lines, I'd like to hear from you! 

So the question goes out.....what types of unarmed tactics work well for you in the following "movement restrictive" conditions:

1-water, shallow (standing in waist deep) to treading water-scenarios including shoreline and surf pounding to underwater confontations to murky mud slops
2-sitting in a car or theater or passenger airlines with little or no movement potential
3-standing in a very small boat
4-standing in deep snow up to your nuts
5-standing on very steep terrain like a hillside
6-inside a small closet, standing room only
7-insert your own terrain ideas here

[Kentbob]

OK, I am asking folks to divulge their knowledge for us to discuss what works best for them in terrain/situations you normally don't train in.  Most of us have great UC tactics that work really well in flat and solid terrain, but what about those times when good old earth is just plain difficult?  Have you trained in water, deep mud, snow or very steep terrain?  What about inside a car or theater while sitting?  Basically, non-UFC type terrain conditions that people can find themselves in at any time.  Now how does the TKD kicks and BJJ grappling work for you if at all?  If you train in these environments or think along these lines, I'd like to hear from you! 

So the question goes out.....what types of unarmed tactics work well for you in the following "movement restrictive" conditions:

1-water, shallow (standing in waist deep) to treading water-scenarios including shoreline and surf pounding to underwater confontations to murky mud slops
2-sitting in a car or theater or passenger airlines with little or no movement potential
3-standing in a very small boat
4-standing in deep snow up to your nuts
5-standing on very steep terrain like a hillside
6-inside a small closet, standing room only
7-insert your own terrain ideas here

1)  I am a decent swimmer, but in waist deep I tend to stay rooted and stiff-arm the rush, and push the other person's head under.  If you move, it takes too long to get your balance back.    When treading water, I move side to side, and grab the person as they go past, again, pushing their head underwater. 
2) Invading hands, eye attacks, elbows, rakes, hammerfists, and forearm/elbow smashes.  Also, use the natural barriers around, like walls, seats, windows.  A seat won't do any real damage, but the impact can be enough to rattle someone.
3)Never been there, never done that.
4) Again, I tend not to move very much, because it takes so long.  Stiff-arm the bad guys, and let them come to me. 
5) Hillside, usually try to maneuver the person into whatever obstacle may be around, tree, rock, whatever.  If I'm on the downslope, I my best to trap and trip their legs, or press them really hard, to make them trip, or maneuver my way to the upslope.  Mostly hand techniques, balance gets tricky on a hill.
6) Once again, elbows, knees, eye gouges, rakes, fishhooks, forearm, and lots of invading hands.  Walls are handy, by all means, bash a bad guys head into one a few times, see if they don't loosen up.  Grab the hair, it makes an excellent handle.  Grab the nuts, too. 
7) Ice.  Ice sucks.  Get off the ice as soon as possible. Until then, stay low, and don't make any sudden movements.  Kicks are right out on the ice.



Kent

[JimH]

I have trained in water and underwater(scuba school),sitting in a car,standing in snow,(up to knees or slightly over,not up to groin),standing on a hill (upside and downside),on ice,in an aircraft ,in a train and in a bus.

The majority,99 percent, used closing the gap,if the conflict was not already close  and close in stand up hand work,be it from boxing,wing chun,karate or stand up Jujitsu type fighting.
The only tme you could throw a kick ,with power ,is when you are on the upside/up slope on a hill then you get one kick and the terrain is equal as you are at the same level or you are at disadvantage on the downside.
Knee deep water ,you can use sweeps and throws,over knee deep and you have to go to hands.

[mleone]

Enviorment has always been a variable, but some enviorments offer improvised objects such as Asphalt, Sand/Dirt Rocks and other natural objects.

Enviorments has always been a variable. So is weather...

Snow and Ice create bad balance. Those Tae Kwon do kicks you thought you could do in the Dojo?
Most reality people know this.. It cant be done in certain areas.

The situation dictates the response but so does enviorment. Weather gives you some options or takes them away.

This why in the summer and different seasons, you can hold 1 outside class per month or every new season. We do the beach with stick work and other concepts.

But you can hold 1 outside class once and a while. Do combat scenarios in the rain.


You have to be creative.

[JimH]

In 1970-1974 I trained with some hard core REALISTIC nut job instructors in NYC ,we trained in and on any terrain available:
the Beach,in the snow,on ice,in the rain,in the street,in buildings,in elevators,in cars,trucks,buses,trains and in phone boxes with sliding closing doors.

The only thing that limits where you can train is you and your partners.

The way to find what works and what is doable is to try it all.

[Joe Hubbard]

Please remember that with any of these scenarios, the guy/guys you are fighting are also in the same situation.  If I am knee deep in mud, so is he!  And so it goes- it’s all different shades of nasty.  Also bear in mind that you are probably better trained and if you are prepared are fighting dirty from the start.

Out

Joe

[mleone]

A choke is a choke no matter where it is..
But its how you use the enviorment and available things at your disposal.

[JimH]

For the most part we hope the playing field is equal,meaning we hope the opponent is in the same conditions,but things happen.
In a car jacking or attack the opponent may be standing outside the vehicle while you are seated ,the opponent reaches in and grabs you or attemptes to punch,not the same as being on equal footing.

When in the water  or under the water,gravity is not an issue,depending on depth, and if one applies a choke one need not have any contact except for the arm around the neck and head close so the only attacks/defenses can be made to the opponents arm/s or head,and air is a critical need more so for the one being choked as he/she is expending the most energy to try and survive.

Trying a kick with flat soled leather shoes on concrete is like being on Ice,if the opponent has on sneakers or threaded sole shoes or boots they will be more likely able to kick ,knee and or operate on one leg than you.
(terrain is important but foot wear and gear plays a big part)

If I fight someone in the rain and they are in a tee shirt and shorts and I am in a suit,again with flat soled shoes ,they in sneakers, I am at a great disadvantage as now I am restricted in movement ,due to the shoes,and I am less likely to get a good hold of my opponent as he/she will be slippery due to the rain on exposed skin,yet he/she does not have the same conditions in attacking me.

If I am on a train,plane or bus and seated the attacker/s will most likely approach me while I am seated and he/she/they are standing same terrain,different position of attack and defense.

We would hope all is equal in regard to terrain,if so the one trained,willing and prepared to survive at all costs,doing what needs to be done ,will be the victor,hopefully,but Murphy's law always rears its head and anything can and will happen

[Dawg]

Great thread! I've got a friend who is a manager at our local theater; I'll see if he'll let us do some training there. People already think I'm crazy; might as well live up to their expectations. I also like the idea of training in the rain in our slippery Mississippi mud. I have had some bad experiences training on slick pavement around vehicles, though. "Danger, danger, danger!" as my favorite Crocodile Hunter used to say.

V/R,
Dawg

[Tank]

Hey Dawg

If you train your  guys in the movie theater, make sure something good is playing.
I wouldn't want them to have to watch a chick flick or something!

[Dawg]

A chick flick is a great idea! Maybe I could get some of you ladies to show up!