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Author Topic: Combat Clock Clarification  (Read 9371 times)

cross

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Combat Clock Clarification
« on: September 26, 2007, 06:02:16 AM »

Hey everyone,

Just after some clarification on the combat clock concept. I think its a very good way of conveying techniques and various angles of attack and defense.

Take for example an attacker throwing a right handed haymaker(a 3 o'clock from his point of view) and you defend against it with a left handed block(a 9 o'clock from your point of view) do you ignore his reference points and focus purely on your own clock angles? So when you are looking at a right haymaker being thrown at you it is considered to be at 9 o'clock?

Perhaps i am over complicating a fairly simple concept, but just want to get things clear.

Thanks for any info you can provide,

Eli.
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Hock

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Re: Combat Clock Clarification
« Reply #1 on: September 26, 2007, 06:11:19 AM »

Your clock is your clock.
His clock is his clock.
Lay the clock on the floor and you have footwork patterns

You can spit, shoot, stab and slash at the clock.

Basic training the four clock quarters.
Advanced training-all 12 numbers.

Hock

cross

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Re: Combat Clock Clarification
« Reply #2 on: September 26, 2007, 06:18:49 AM »

Thanks Hock, Just thinking out loud and making sure i understood the concept correctly.
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mleone

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Re: Combat Clock Clarification
« Reply #3 on: September 26, 2007, 11:04:26 AM »

With the clock method, I can teach in half the time and get it across. But knife by numbers takes alot longer.

Its funny I taught to some Kali guys they say "Hey Thats angle 2".  I say No its the clock...

Knife by numbers is some systems ways of teaching the knife, frankly I teach the same thing in half the time.

But for some of these schmucks out there, its suddenly not complicated enough for them.

See the Knife by Numbers thread..
http://hockscombatforum.com/index.php/topic,1253.0.html
« Last Edit: September 26, 2007, 11:06:14 AM by mleone »
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loyalonehk

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Re: Combat Clock Clarification
« Reply #4 on: September 26, 2007, 11:20:18 AM »

Been there done that...  I prefer the clock also.  I've played with the number systems and also Kabaroan's method of getting your "PHD" as GM Estalilla puts it.  Same design as the clock (has to be) but he used terms like overhand-right, under-hand left, hor-right, etc.  Fun way to teach it and joke about people earning a PHD (Perpendicular - Horizontal - Diagonal) at your seminar, but the combatives world relates to the clock instantly. 

Just makes sense to me... 8)
« Last Edit: September 26, 2007, 11:21:54 AM by loyalonehk »
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mleone

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Re: Combat Clock Clarification
« Reply #5 on: September 26, 2007, 12:03:18 PM »

The problem is some systems want to be so fancy.
They also want things complex.
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Lone Wolf

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Re: Combat Clock Clarification
« Reply #6 on: September 26, 2007, 05:12:34 PM »

I also like the clock method, but I have to admit I still use a basic 5 count pattern quit a bit also. VAJ calls it the cinco terro striking pattern.  It is simple enough for folks to get it and learn conceptual angles of movement and it work with several of the drills I use.  But it really is just me not wanting to let go of some of the first Kali stuff I learned. 
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whitewolf

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Re: Combat Clock Clarification
« Reply #7 on: September 26, 2007, 11:13:49 PM »

I have used the clock  method ever sense I took Hocks class a few years ago in Nashville Tn-I use it to show my guards who have a had time with english i just  show them  my watch first-I use it at every  seminar/demo etc-never found anything better sense then-afte we pracise the clock blocking  i add  the palm to  chin then i  add block palm knee or elbow strike-it is fast  and simple -no kung fu  charlie on one leg like a crane stuff-lol-
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redcap

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Re: Combat Clock Clarification
« Reply #8 on: October 02, 2007, 07:16:14 AM »

I also like the clock method, but I have to admit I still use a basic 5 count pattern quit a bit also. VAJ calls it the cinco terro striking pattern.  It is simple enough for folks to get it and learn conceptual angles of movement and it work with several of the drills I use.  But it really is just me not wanting to let go of some of the first Kali stuff I learned. 

I use the five ways system also, 1 and 2 are downward diagonals, 3 and 4 horizontals and 5 is a straight thrust.  Keeps it simple for everyone and they learn it as fast as the clock.  I can also ask for them to throw a 1 and they don;t have to convert my 3o'clock to their 9o'clock and so on.

Then I move them on to an 11 angle system which uses the same first five, then does 6 and 7 the same thrusts as in Hock's 12, then 8 and 9 are the upward diagonals and then 10 is a top to bottom 12o'clock blow and 11 is a straight up 6 o'clock blow. These angles are simply striking angles that allow everyone to safely feed blows and deal with them as they all know where the strike is going.  The angle remains the same, the height or target can change but in training it is always the same spot for safety reasons.

Footwork starts out as a V, stepping diagonally back from any incoming blow either left or right foot first.  Then I make it an X and add stepping diagonally in, then they get the other spokes of the wheel and can step to the side or straight in or back.  Then we forget about footwork and just move without falling over.

When defending I teach either left side or right side, react to the movement and adjust for the height as you respond.  Priority is to get out of the path of the strike, anything else is a bonus at first.  Since at first they step back as they counter hit they have plenty of time to react and as they get better they can then defend high or low, left or right. In that regard I guess they have a clock in front of them but more like 10o'clock, 2o'clock, 4o'clock and 8o'clock.

I could drop this and take on the clock system but mine works fine for me.  I did introduce an excellent drill I picked up off some dude's tapes  ;) I call the "Increasing 11 Drill". It is a great way to build up to random, full force, full speed attacks and blocks and then counters.  The troops love it as it builds them up gradually and is a good workout along the way.  Then they get to test themselves full on, mix things up and randomise the angles (I invented that bit or else I haven;t gotten to that part of the tape series yet, hehehehehe)  When they are ready they ditch the helmet and gloves and go for it as they would have to in a real fight and it is a great confidence booster.  Cheers Redcap.
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usks1

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Re: Combat Clock Clarification
« Reply #9 on: October 02, 2007, 02:45:13 PM »

The clock is just a good generic way to train people. Angles are no big deal, and pretty easy to learn also, but if you travel around a bit you end up memorizing 75 different ways to deliver the same strikes..

10 systems, 10 different ways to deliver the same strikes.

And then you run into the systems with 60 or more angles....  :o

How funny is that. Instead of
 - Followthru strikes on the clock
 - Hit and retract strikes on the clock
 - Thrusts and gaffs on the clock
 - 2 hand strikes on the clock..

You end up trying to memorize 60 angles in a certain particular order.... Kinda tough & maybe that time could be better used doing some application training, or hitting something......

Oh well I better stop before I get hit by a bolt of lightning or something..  ;)

Over and out...
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Milldog1776

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Re: Combat Clock Clarification
« Reply #10 on: October 02, 2007, 03:14:23 PM »

Couldn't agree more, Deano!

Also, when you start playing with the clock method...you can now engage in "Principle Driven Training" as opposed to "Technique Driven Training".

System A, B, and C may have 6 different responses between them for a strike coming in at 2 O'clock based on it being a chop, punch, stick strike, etc. But it's still just something coming in at 2 O'clock. So we can develop 1 or 2 Principles to follow up with, and eliminate the need to differentiate through all of the "Classical Mess".
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redcap

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Re: Combat Clock Clarification
« Reply #11 on: October 02, 2007, 09:52:10 PM »

Wheter you call it the Clock or spokes of a wheel and number them in order, all the same thing.  I am looking toward the day in the near future when analogue clocks are a thing of the past like records and cassette tapes and my students will only ever have seen a digital clock.  At that time, numbered angles will triumph!  Redcap.
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Nick Hughes

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Re: Combat Clock Clarification
« Reply #12 on: October 02, 2007, 10:49:12 PM »

So, you're waiting for Rolex and Panerai to go digital eh?  Good luck with that ;D

yer Uncle Nicky
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redcap

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Re: Combat Clock Clarification
« Reply #13 on: October 03, 2007, 08:31:25 AM »

So, you're waiting for Rolex and Panerai to go digital eh?  Good luck with that ;D

yer Uncle Nicky
I don't teach too many people who own a Rolex or have ever heard of Paneral so that is moot!  I did have a dentist in Cebu who was called Dr Rolex Omega.....I swear!  Cheers Redcap

PS I do use the clock method, I just say hit from on top, hit from this side, hit from that side or hit from below.  Hehehehe
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whitewolf

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Re: Combat Clock Clarification
« Reply #14 on: October 03, 2007, 09:19:26 PM »

Redcap--ok u got to explain the 11 block series again-i went to the mirror-tried the 11 blocks and got my arms tangled around my  head-i went from 5 to 6 to 10 and struck my nose-seriously bro-how about discribing it a  little more simply-thank u -whitewolf in kuwait.
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redcap

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Re: Combat Clock Clarification
« Reply #15 on: October 04, 2007, 06:51:03 AM »

You actually tried it out without adult supervision?  Back to front with a mrror?  Wow!  No way I'd have risked that from my description!  OK.   6 and 7 are thrusts on the 1 and 2.  After the backhand downward/inward thrust of 7, the wrist turns and faces back,then down, then comes up as you strike on the 8, which is a backhand, upward diagonal, does a figure 8 and comes back on the 9, which is a forehand, upward diagonal.  It reaches the top and then is brought straight down, but do it to the right of you or else you hit yourself in the knackers.  11 is simply coming back up on the vertical center line.  So technically the wagon wheel only has 8 spokes and the center hub (#5)  You can leave out 6 and 7 if you want to.  Up to you.  Cheers, Perry in Sydney.
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whitewolf

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Re: Combat Clock Clarification
« Reply #16 on: October 04, 2007, 08:08:03 AM »

OK Redcap-i thrusted- backhanded- went down -went up- around straight in -and NOW----
back to  block the clock till someday i get to sidney and get some one on  one training because sir i am f-------g confused (guess i am just a jarhead-Marine to  u ;D ;D
thank u  anyway-whitewolf
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Wardog

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Re: Combat Clock Clarification
« Reply #17 on: October 04, 2007, 08:36:05 AM »

 I have a digital clock so I am screwed!
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whitewolf

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Re: Combat Clock Clarification
« Reply #18 on: October 04, 2007, 08:59:12 AM »

Wardog-oh well -life is  like that sometimes-have some one read his post and then move your  arms the same way-if you dont choke yourself like i  did you will be  ok-damm aussies-guess to much kangroo burgers- ;) ;) (smile reddog)
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JimH

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Re: Combat Clock Clarification
« Reply #19 on: October 04, 2007, 01:10:22 PM »

Even with a digital clock if you Know where you are in the world and the time of day,look at the sun and you wil have North ,South,East and West,so you have 12-6-3-9 as points on the clock,lol.
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redcap

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Re: Combat Clock Clarification
« Reply #20 on: October 04, 2007, 05:24:03 PM »

But if you look at the sun you have to squint and then N,S E and W are vertical, not horizontal and thus useless for going anywhere!  I'm making this harder then it is meant to be, aren't I?

Whitewolf, nothing wrong with Jarheads, we share the same birthday, 10 November.  When it comes to close air support, give me a marine flyer anyday!  One exercise we did with the US in northern QLD had Marine A4's and A6's coming in over the top of us so low we could pull the bandaids off the bits of fuselage that weren't covered in mud!

Cheers, Redcap
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whitewolf

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Re: Combat Clock Clarification
« Reply #21 on: October 04, 2007, 07:42:57 PM »

OK Redcap-yes those pilots are pretty good-quick story-we were in subic bay and the pilots in my   unit were dong carrier  quals-they would pour  beer  on a  long table  and then run and slide down the table from on end to the other-one Lt missed the table top and hit his  top of  head on the edge-took a  few stitches that  night-as fpr the clock if i  ever get to sidney ill bring a crayon and draw one on the wall so i   can figure out your  method-stay safe- whitewolf :D
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cross

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Re: Combat Clock Clarification
« Reply #22 on: October 09, 2007, 12:16:33 AM »

Im interested to know why Hock went with the clock has opposed to "left, right, high, low" for the 4 main angles? Im thinking that both would be equally easy to retain,(perhaps the left right high low would even be easier). I suppose one of the drawbacks is you dont have the option to teach 12 angles.
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whitewolf

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Re: Combat Clock Clarification
« Reply #23 on: October 09, 2007, 10:24:11 AM »

Cross=I have been practising the clock method for about 6-7 years-unless there is some other reason Hock picked the clock as it represents a angle that all would be able to follow when practising-sense just about everyone understands where for example number 2 is located on a clock and then visulizes it when blocking it works out well. You can teach the blind ,children, senior citizens etc that  way-also those are where a strike comes from so they go together-stay  safe Whitewolf..
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Hock

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Re: Combat Clock Clarification
« Reply #24 on: October 09, 2007, 10:19:32 PM »


Basic-the simple four corners.

Advanced, all 12 numbers to strike, slash and stab at.

And the axis point in the center. As with each number the axis counts in for straght attacks and stabs...such as:

12 (high to center axis point
3 (right to center axis point
and so on...

Quick to learn
Unforgetable.

Anyway still remember the Canate 46?
The Wilcox 7?

The old-school military - the inward, the backhand, the stab is:
2 slash, 11 slash, axis

Hock

redcap

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Re: Combat Clock Clarification
« Reply #25 on: October 10, 2007, 05:33:55 PM »

So the defender has to be left handed or able to mentally reverse the clock, right?  Like if you say I'm throwing in a 2 (o'clock) then it will come out of my 10 (o'clock), your 3 (o'clock) is my 9 (o'clock), correct?  Hehehehe

I remember reading the book on Pananandata and all the strikes were in Pampangan or Tagalog or something, had names instead of numbers.  You had to remember what a Suntok Araw was and a talas talahib and so on.  Probably dead simple if you spoke fluent Tagalog!

I had enough fun teaching Cebuano's a Manila based system where everything was in Tagalog.  I finally twigged there were problems when I mentioned breaking a bone (Buto) and they fell on the floor since buto in Visayan is vagina.  And as Hock mentioned in his blog, there is a difference in meaning between hubud and hubad!  Cheers, Redcap.
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Hock

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Re: Combat Clock Clarification
« Reply #26 on: October 10, 2007, 05:35:18 PM »

Yup.
a 3 o'clock for a righty is an inward strike
a 3 o'clock for a lefty is a backhand strike

Hock
 

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