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Author Topic: Doce Pares vs Modern Arnis  (Read 9613 times)

mleone

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Doce Pares vs Modern Arnis
« on: November 04, 2007, 02:33:33 PM »

Doce Pares/Modern Arnis

Im pretty sure they are very much alike. How ever I would like more info on them.

Can any one give me some differences between the two?
Technical Differences?

Can any one give me some basic history for each one?

thanks
Mario
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Hock

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Re: Doce Pares vs Modern Arnis
« Reply #1 on: November 06, 2007, 08:39:12 AM »

Doce Paras -  the Filipino Canate Family -a large group of materials in:

hand,
single stick,
double stick,
knife
stick and knife
"Bo" /staff material
"other" Filipino weapons
As large and big as the Ernesto Presas Arnis program which also covers these exact categories.


Remy Presas Modern Arnis - not nearly as big and broad. Currently mired down with obsessive Tapi-Tapi close quarters drills by new breed of Tapi-Tapi "Grandmasters." The current organizational weakness and looseness of how Remy ran things is a testimony to the mess left behind. Remy Presas Modern Arnis will de-evolve into a footnote to martial arts history. Just a fact of life. And...Remy is not alone with these management problem.


|||||||||||||||||||||


Lameco Escrima needs to beware. It has clung tenaciously to survive after Edgar Salute's death and despite politics and NO FORMAL SYSTEM organization and leaders, STILL has a tried and true base of talented people worldwide. This is testimony to the quality and reach of Lameco.

But the Lameco System people are afraid to stand up, test, make instructors and open Lameco schools. They tiptoe about, attracting only the most esoteric students willing to exercise without gain or goal.  Or it will pass on. In the big picture of keeping Edgar's dream alive, the capitalistic aspects are what actually keeps it alive and makes it viable and growing! 

Europe should see my friend Wolfgang Mueller in Frankfurt, a man who trained with Edgar for so long, he traveled to the Philippines before Inosanto knew who Edgar was. I was in the Inosanto concepts heavily from 1987 to 1993 and I do know something about Lameco and I can attest to Wolfgang's dedication, knowledge and skill.

Anyway, there is my little speech on Lameco survival. Not exactly this thread topic, but close. I am not a FMA or Lameco Escrima pratitioner, as we say in Texas "I have no dog in this hunt." but I know good when I see it. I know good people when I see them.

Hock
« Last Edit: November 06, 2007, 03:30:53 PM by Hock »
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redcap

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Re: Doce Pares vs Modern Arnis
« Reply #2 on: November 06, 2007, 08:12:28 PM »

I have had the pleasure and privilege of training with Edgar Sulite, as well as Modern Arnis (Both Ernesto and Remy's people but never either of them) and also Doce Pares exponents and have met several of the Canetes.  If I were to offer an opinion on the differences I would say that Doce Pares has a lot more movement in and out and flowing around.  As one instructor once commented to me  "Like falling rain". More speed and less power appears to be the way with them but I could be mistaken.  Keep in mind their WEKAF competition rules favour speed and flow more than power, hence the style or hence the rules!

Modern Arnis always seemed like Karate with sticks as it was taught here, very lineal and stiff, but then we didn;t see it after Remy appeared to switch to more a Mano Mano empty hands syllabus.  ARJUKEN (Ernesto's org) was somewhere in between the two with of course Jujitsu and Kendo  thrown in but taught here mainly as separate classes. I think they call it Kombato or Kombatan now, is that right?

Lameco seemed the closest of all to the Corral System I was taught and more a traditional style of FMA, hence the lack of a structured organisation I guess.  Sam Corral asked me to put together the syllabus and organisation for Corral Arnis which I did, however it no longer exists except for one or two of my former students teaching here and there.

I think the styles that will continue on are the Doce Pares because it has a structure and organisation (or two) and those developed in the USA from Phil-Am instrctors (such as Pekiti Tirsia and Sayoc and the JKD derivatives) because of the western influences on organisation.  Most Filipinos are simply not that organised, at least not at the lower socio-economic levels.  Keep in mind the Canete's are all attorneys and accountants etc.  Cheers, Redcap.
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Boar Man

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Re: Doce Pares vs Modern Arnis
« Reply #3 on: November 07, 2007, 09:33:06 AM »

On the Modern Arnis front and Presas Arnis as a whole I'll offer up some thoughts.  As to Doce Pares, I do know that much about.

Modern Arnis as a whole has a curriculum that is based on (primarily) single stick, empty hands, a little double stick and a little knife work.  Keep in mind what Remy taught in the Philippines and what he taught in the states changed over the years.  In fact what Remy taught in the states in the 80's is different from what he taught in the 90's.  Many of the same elements just different emphasis.

Add to this the different instructors whom Remy taught over the different time frames and Modern Arnis takes a whole lot of different directions.  Which is why I don't think Modern Arnis will die out and just be a footnote in history.

You have the instructors who went different directions like Hock, who took what they learned from Remy, Ernesto, and others and made their own arts which is exactly what the Professor (Remy) did as every other pioneer in the martial arts.  Funakoshi, Otsuka, Ushiba sensei, Ed Parker and on and on are examples of individuals who made their own way.

Then you have the instructors from the Philippines who trained with Remy for a time, and some who trained with Ernesto and or Roberto or different combinations there of and they teach and have different material than a lot of us in the states.  Their Modern Arnis is much more classical in nature and I think to a degree wider in scope of weapons or weapon combinations learned in their curriculum's.  In the late 90's Remy traveled back to the Philippines and reconnected with many of these older brothers and sisters in the art.

You have the different organizations in the USA of which there are many, IMAF Inc with the MoTTs, IMAF Inc with Jeff Delaney, WMAC Datu Kelly Worden's group, WMAA with Datu Tim Hartman, Modern Arnis 80 with SM Dan Anderson, MARPPIO with Dr. Remy Presas (Junior), USMAC with Rocky and so on.

Internationally you have Datu Dieters's DAV in Germany, Gabby's organization in Germany, there is the T.M.A. in the Czech Republic, the RAF in Russia, Association Modern Arnis France, and so on.  Plus the IMAF Philippines and the Worldwide Brotherhood (Which has a new name now possibly the Worldwide Family) of Modern Arnis. 

Like Tae Kwon Do, Shotokan, Aikido, even there are different interpretations of the art depending upon the instructors and their lineage and background.  In time the art tends to morph and evolve.  Over time depending upon the students and instructors reverence for the founder or the head of their system I think depends upon whether the art will become a footnote or not.  And I think the same can be said for Modern Arnis as well.  GM Remy was a larger than life person who presented his system all over the world and I believe the reverence the students (and instructors) hold for him will carry the art for a while.  Will it ever be as big as Shotokan, or TKD, I don't think so.  But then that is another discussion.

 
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Boar Man

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Re: Doce Pares vs Modern Arnis
« Reply #4 on: November 07, 2007, 10:17:29 AM »

Doce Paras -  the Filipino Canate Family -a large group of materials in:

hand,
single stick,
double stick,
knife
stick and knife
"Bo" /staff material
"other" Filipino weapons
As large and big as the Ernesto Presas Arnis program which also covers these exact categories.


Remy Presas Modern Arnis - not nearly as big and broad. Currently mired down with obsessive Tapi-Tapi close quarters drills by new breed of Tapi-Tapi "Grandmasters." The current organizational weakness and looseness of how Remy ran things is a testimony to the mess left behind. Remy Presas Modern Arnis will devolve into a footnote to martial arts history. Just a fact of life. And...Remy is not alone with these management problem.


Hock

As per my last post I don't see the emphasis on the Tapi Tapi drills.  There are many different organizations and different emphasis on teaching out there.  OK now I'll probably piss off some guys but maybe not.

There are the preservationists and I would place the IMAF Inc(s). (both of the USA groups) in this category.  In 2002 the last time I trained with Dr. Schea's group it was still in what I call the preservation mode.  This is what Remy taught in the late 90's.  Same think for Jeff D.'s group the last time I had any instruction under him.  However what the preservationists group are teaching is a much better method than Remy taught.  Not that they are better or better presenters mind you but they taught better.  They formulated the techniques better they explained the principles behind the techniques better.  etc. etc.

Then you have guys like Datu Kelly Worden.  When I went to a seminar of his it seemed much more Inosanto based.  However it was Modern Arnis.  I compared Kelly to Inosanto in the manner of his teaching and some of the drills but once again it was Modern Arnis based and the material was explained very well.  The principles and concepts that he was trying to get across.  But there was no Tapi Tapi to speak of.

Dieter's group does do Tapi tapi but there isn't the same emphasis there as over here.  He also has organized the material into a more structured way of teaching the drills but they are a small part of their (The DAV's) overall curriculum, it has it's place and no more.

Bram's emphasis is on the edged weapon aspect of Modern Arnis and therefore I don't think he emphasizes the Tapi drills at all.  In fact at the DAV German camp he emphasized the point about respecting the edge of the blade and how you can't grab it (in the Tapi drills you grab the stick a lot) by whacking at pieces of a chicken with his bolo to show how blades cut.  I guess some people were grabbing the blades during the cutting drills.  I didn't mention Bram in the previous post but he is another one who has taken the art his own direction, that being primarily from a edged weapon aspect.

When I saw Dr Remy Junior a couple of years ago his seminar was pretty diverse but Tapi Tapi wasn't a major part of it.  Granted we did do some stick traps and locks but they weren't from the base of a Tapi Tapi drill.  They were more isolated as techniques instead of being part of this or that drill series.

SM Dan Anderson's material isn't Tapi Tapi based at all.  He is another one who has taken what the Professor showed/taught and worked out the principles behind the material and I believe has improved on the instruction of the material being taught.  His MA80 program is his method of passing on Remy's art, but I don't see it being mired down in Tapi tapi drills.

Over the past several years I have tried to see the bigger picture of the Modern Arnis world by going to see different instructors and camps here in the states and I even went to the DAV summercamp this past year with my son (as a vacation) to get a bigger picture as to what is out there in the Modern Arnis or Presas Arnis world.  And I can say without a doubt that it is not mired down in Tapi tapi drills, and for the most part I believe Modern Arnis is alive and well in the world.

Is there politics in the Modern Arnis world.  You bet.  But is there politics in just about any martial art system in the world today, yep.  Do I wish it could be better hell yeah.  But it is what it is.  Will Modern Arnis become a footnote in history who knows.
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Boar Man

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Re: Doce Pares vs Modern Arnis
« Reply #5 on: November 07, 2007, 11:18:41 AM »

Doce Pares/Modern Arnis

Im pretty sure they are very much alike. How ever I would like more info on them.

Can any one give me some differences between the two?
Technical Differences?

Can any one give me some basic history for each one?

thanks
Mario

Mario

Remy created Modern Arnis in 1968 when he combined several different classical methods of Arnis he learned from different sources.  He learned the Palis Palis (go with the force method from his grand father), he also studied Balintawak for a time becoming one of that groups main fighters, double stick fighting or Sinawalis (I haven't found a source) and combined it with karate and combat judo (and or jujitsu).

From a personal discussion with him he told me the following.  When he left the Balintawak club he sought out other Arnis players.  he would go to a local area and find out who was good in arnis.  Then he would go and ask them to "check his stick out" which was a challenge in a sense.  However he told me he would find out information about the guy (like if he was a Japanese sympathizer, or a rebel) and then tell the guy he wants to fight this person over here who is or is not a sympathizer and he heard that he (the guy he wants to fight) is real good with his stick and would he check Remy out.  Then in private they would fight and if he won, then Remy "owned them" and thus he would learn or capture the essence of their style or method of play.  In time he would move on and so on gaining experience.

This appears to be typical for Remy as he related to me how he learned to become a great fighter in Balintawak.  Remy studied under Rodoflo Moncal and Timoteo Maranga but in time he gained notice of "Anciong" Bacon the founder of Balintawak.  Remy was a young kid in his teens and almost cannon fodder for the older men in the club but he had a fighter's spirit and he was a natural lefty.  Remy was tired of getting beaten up so he would take Anciong out to drink and get him liquored up and then pry the principles and concepts behind the art from the master.  He'd then work on his technique and when it came to sparring time at the club he soon began to turn the tables on the other guys who had been dominating him.  In time becoming one of their top fighters.

He then systematized his experience and created Modern Arnis.  Along the way he taught small groups of students and trained in karate, judo or jujitsu and in time combined aspects of those arts into Modern Arnis.

Balintawak is a straight forward in your face close in fighting system, and from this art is probably the main influence for the majority of Remy's Tapi Tapi or in your face materail.  The more classical long range material such as the Rompida, Ocho Ocho (figure 8 style), band banda (side to side), abaniko (fan) method and the up and down method are probably stuff he learned and combined from different sources.

Over time his material changed and when he came to the states he really evolved his system by first incorporating different material from different arts Wally Jay (Small Circle Jujitsu) and George Dillman's karate being two.  But I think Remy adapted anything which fit his needs and his expression of his art.  And this is how he kept his art alive and growing here in the states.  This could also be a weakness of his art as well.

Remy's Modern Arnis here in the states basically consists of
A little double stick material (i.e. basic single sinawalis, double sinawalis, basic crossada applications with the double stick)

A little espada y daga work (Again from a personal conversation with Remy he told me EYD wasn't useful or practical any more so he didn't teach it)

Single stick material including the different classical methods (listed above)of striking and blocking along with a multitude of locks, throws, take downs and disarms thrown in.  Along with different flow or sparring drills (Tapi Tapi, basic six count sparring pattern (which is very close to Sumbrada patterns)) and so on.

Very little knife work that is very jujitsu based in it's defense against a knife attack.

Empty hand material that is very jujitsu based on different locks, throws, and takedowns. Along with basic punching and kicking skills thrown in.  However in the empty hand aspect of the art different applications of the double stick drills, the single stick drills and the knife work are also covered or come out so to speak.  Along with some ground work as well.

Remy's art I don't look at it being very wide (per say) but very deep in some areas, such as the single stick and the empty hand aspects of his art.  Very shallow in other areas such as knife, EYD, and double stick to a sense.

Hope this helps
Mark
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Hock

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Re: Doce Pares vs Modern Arnis
« Reply #6 on: November 07, 2007, 12:33:40 PM »

As I get all around the world? I see a decline in interest in the Filipino Martial Arts. Small, esoteric groups remain where in the 1990s there was a growing momentum. As I have said in the past - there were once three main FMA flagship bearers, Inosanto, Remy and Gaje and they traveled weekly.

Dan is so multi-systemed and doing so much other material. Traveling a bit less and there have been several outside events confusing his mission. I think this whole JKD Nucleous thing booted him around a bit. Then he took a break.

Remy is dead.

Leo Gaje has...well..become incorrigible to work with. In these days, many people ignore over-complicated systems and he is the king of one. Honestly, aside from a few people, pekiti tersa people have the largest group of arrogant, over-confident, difficult martial artists I have ever met. It wasn't that long ago they were promising to be the "dog-eaters" and eat the hearts of American FMA people. 

Is it just me but has Sayoc kind of slipped off the charts?

Are the Dog Brothers trying to "hand, stick, kife and gun" themselves into a diferent category?

A very major FMA player passed through California recently, in an event that use to draw 50 to 80 people annually. 6 people showed up. SIX!

A very, popular USA resident, Filipino-born FMA master has recently been doing free seminar appearances at bigger events, traveling and staying at his own expense, to drum up new students and business.

I receive calls for help from FMA people, both here and in the Philipines, asking me to help promote them. I just can't help. Not in the FMA loop anymore and not too sure there is much of a loop left?

Smaller still and inside this over-all decline is a the stratified, angry-at-each-other Remy Presas, Modern Arnis groupings. Very few outsiders, even FMA people know the names of Remy people. Jeff Delaney? Scorned. Dr Shea? Nobody knows him. Remy Jr? He gets low grades from just about everyone I hear from who doesn't "have a dog in the Remy hunt." All the great Tapi-Tapi GMs made at Remy's end? Who and where are they now? Back doing karate? If you are not a deep insider? No one knows most of these people.

Kelly Warden and Deiter were successful martial artists before and without Remy. Independant achievers. I think that is why we still know their names.  When you go see Kelly and Deiter you expect to see a huge range of good material.

It is the big picture. In the even bigger picture? Most people want to go golfing on a weekend! That is why I have little optimism. Will FMA always be around? Will Modern Arnis? Sure. Will it matter? I just don't know.

Hock

Boar Man

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Re: Doce Pares vs Modern Arnis
« Reply #7 on: November 08, 2007, 09:15:19 AM »

1) As I get all around the world? I see a decline in interest in the Filipino Martial Arts. Small, esoteric groups remain where in the 1990s there was a growing momentum. As I have said in the past - there were once three main FMA flagship bearers, Inosanto, Remy and Gaje and they traveled weekly.

2) Dan is so multi-systemed and doing so much other material. Traveling a bit less and there have been several outside events confusing his mission. I think this whole JKD Nucleous thing booted him around a bit. Then he took a break.

3) A very major FMA player passed through California recently, in an event that use to draw 50 to 80 people annually. 6 people showed up. SIX!

4) A very, popular USA resident, Filipino-born FMA master has recently been doing free seminar appearances at bigger events, traveling and staying at his own expense, to drum up new students and business.

5) Smaller still and inside this over-all decline is a the stratified, angry-at-each-other Remy Presas, Modern Arnis groupings. Very few outsiders, even FMA people know the names of Remy people. Jeff Delaney? Scorned. Dr Shea? Nobody knows him. Remy Jr? He gets low grades from just about everyone I hear from who doesn't "have a dog in the Remy hunt." All the great Tapi-Tapi GMs made at Remy's end? Who and where are they now? Back doing karate? If you are not a deep insider? No one knows most of these people.

6) Kelly Warden and Deiter were successful martial artists before and without Remy. Independant achievers. I think that is why we still know their names.  When you go see Kelly and Deiter you expect to see a huge range of good material.

7) It is the big picture. In the even bigger picture? Most people want to go golfing on a weekend! That is why I have little optimism. Will FMA always be around? Will Modern Arnis? Sure. Will it matter? I just don't know.

Hock


Hock
I edited your post and put numbers by the different comments.

1) World wide there might be a decline, but that doesn't take away from the validity or effectiveness of the martial arts or systems themselves.  It's just the public isn't interested.  Remy, Dan and Leo I would agree were the main stay of the seminar circut in the 80's/90's for the FMA world.

2) I would agree here in regards to Dan's teaching multi systems.  I came up in the Inosanto lineage of FMA/JKD approach to learning the FMAs.  Which is why I started with you in  the first place, because you were teaching a more "Complete" art in your combination of Remy's and Ernesto's material.  It was a mess for me and you helped big time in straightening it out for me.  As to the JKD Nucleus thing or him taking a break, I know nothing about it.

3) I agree that is a huge drop but yet I wouldn't say that is an indicator for the whole state of the FMAs .  It could be other reasons as well like promotion of the event, cost of the event, timing etc. etc.  Attendance at a lot of seminars have dropped recently, where in the past you might have 70-100 people at a camp over time it drops to 30-40 then 15-30 etc. etc.  But does this mean the system is ineffective or no good?  Because attendance isn't the only thing that makes the event a success.  You might have huge numbers but still lose out on cost of the event so you don't have it the following year, or you don't have the same caliber of instructors etc.etc. all of which can when money is tight determine whether or not a person goes to a seminar for a week or weekend.

4) Again this is the cost of doing business.  Maybe the person has been out for a while, not well known in the area etc. etc.  They could be a great FMA practitioner or instructor and constantly offend their participants, or be an ass and not make it.  In otherwords the guy might not be a teacher to large groups, or a bad business man etc. etc.  But I would argue that it doesn't mean that the FMAs are bad or not good. 

5) I disagree here.  If you are not in the Modern Arnis world than you are right you won't know the instructors, here or in the Philippines, or abroad in Europe.  But then if you aren't in any organization I doubt you will know who's who in any art.  Unless you are on the cover of a magazine several times many martial artists won't know you.  Ask a typical TKD (Aikido, Karate student, insert main stream style here) stylist who Dan is?  Or who Remy was, or who Leo is? And all you will get is a blank stare. Likewise ask a MMAer who some famous karate sensei (say Gichin Funakoshi, Hironori Otsuka, Masatoshi Nakayama) was and you would get the equally blank stare.  But these men were the movers and shakers (for lack of a better term) in their respective arts.  does this mean that those arts are all dying?

About the MoTTs back doing karate.  Again I don't know what some of them are doing.  I do know that Ken Smith had/has a karate school (Island karate?), Al Garza had a karate school, and I believe they teach Modern arnis on the side.  SM Dan Anderson also has a karate school and then teaches his MA80 on the side as well.  Again it's business, diversification to bring in more students.  I see nothing wrong with it.  Remy in the Philippines back in the 60's taught karate, combat Judo along side of his arnis at his clubs.

6) I agree here Kelly and Dieter are both Independent achievers and good martial artists.  And yes this helps get their names out into the limelight.  I mean Dieter produces martial art videos (very good ones that I've seen)and helps run the DAV and promotes seminars and camps on the FMAs, Kelly produces some videos (decent material but the early ones look like someone was on acid when produced), does seminars and runs his organization so his name is out there.  But then so does Ken Smith he has several DVDs out now on Modern Arnis, so does SM Dan (he writes books and has several DVDs out now.  On a side note SM Dan is a very independent achiever as well.  All of these guys are out there promoting themselves and Modern Arnis while showing a different aspects of Modern Arnis.

7) I agree here.  In the big scheme of things will anything we do really matter though.  As things change within the martial arts, martial systems whatever, everything evolves.  Now the big craze is MMA.  In the 90's it was BJJ, in the early 80's it was ninjitsu; with the FMA, kickboxing, JKD, and other self defense systems on the side.  Over time there has been growth in all of these arts but it hasn't kept up with the growth of the standard karate TKD market.  Why?  Because the market to expand is kids.  Reach out to the young and you bring in the parents, sisters, brothers friends etc. etc. and you keep your bills paid and the lights on.  Try only adults and your market fluctuates which each new craze. 

Once people feel safe and secure then they don't feel they need self defense.  Once they have lost that weight they don't need the kick boxing class at LA Boxing, if they don't want to deal with weapons then they won't flock to the FMA class, etc. etc.  The FMAs, self defense market (Krav Maga, Kajukenpo etc. etc.) Aikido, etc. etc. aren't kid friendly and for the most part they will all be smaller than the karate/TKD organizations.  I believe it's business, not the effectiveness of the systems or the teachers themselves.

Mark
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Hock

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Re: Doce Pares vs Modern Arnis
« Reply #8 on: November 08, 2007, 10:43:19 AM »

Can we switch this over to the business section? Please look at the new topic there. i hate for all this good conversation to be lost at the end of this thread...

Thanks,
Hock
 

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