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Hock Hochheim's Combat Talk Forum

  • May 22, 2012, 08:16:45 PM
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Author Topic: Machete  (Read 3975 times)

Bryan Lee

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Re: Machete
« Reply #15 on: November 21, 2007, 08:34:48 PM »

I've handled this one and can make it do wicked things.   



  Professor, While the Barong Machete is a deal for 20 bucks it gets into the grey area of whether it is a Barong trying to be a Machete, or a Machete trying to be a Barong. For sure its a good marketing ploy and most people will never use it in such a way that pushes it beyond its limitations, I will try to get into those limits here but I have for the record never tested one of these products but I am familiar with Machetes and steel.

  First things first, The Machete was never imagined as a thrusting weapon but as a very fast slicing or hacking weapon where the Barong was and always has been primarily a thrusting weapon that was good at hacking. Where the Machete has been stamped out as a field tool for years the Barong was a proper sword. The Machete was always lighter and more flexible verses the Barong being heavier and stiffer with a pronounced top line or heavier spine making it capable of powerful thrusts that a light Machete would never be capable of achieving without bending or possibly breaking.

  One of the other things that it lacks as a proper thrusting weapon is a decent guard. If you asked police all over the world about knife attacks they will tell you a good many of those who do the attacking cut themselves, many of these cuts are from using kitchen knives and other guardless knives for thrusting attacks which allows the hand to slip onto the edge of the weapon.

  But here lies the real issue of making a machete into a thrusting weapon, the steel. The reality is 1055 Carbon Steel at a thickness of 3MM should never be used in a thrusting weapon longer the say 6 inches and considered a functional sword capable of deep penetration, It just goes against every protocol in knife/sword design. In a hacking weapon the strength lay in the  length, width, and heavy end thus the clip point Machetes made by many who wish for a point. The most documented case for this would be the collaboration Machete between Worden and Ontario, he wanted some point for thrusting so he kept it short and simple limiting the penetration but left enough width at the end for heavy chopping or hacking. He overcame the missing guard by simply not sharpening the edge beyond the grip and even added a second grip for more power and control. While I don't see myself buying the Worden Ontario Machete for personal use I do applaud him and Ontario for making the weapon/tool and the concept was great, I just believe the Machete has limitations and going beyond those makes it a sword.

  I would like one of the Worden Ontario's to keep as a collectible, A Machete collection might be the biggest bang for the buck in the knife world. The Worden being the most expensive at around 69 bucks, thats a heck of a value compared to a 5,000 dollar folding knife.


  P.S. Professor, If you want a proper Barong PM me and I will put you in contact with a Bladesmith in the Philippines.
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JimH, "Bryan, have you seen the Elephant?"  Bryan Lee, "I Am The MotherFFFFing Elephant!"

Benjamin Liu

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Re: Machete
« Reply #16 on: November 22, 2007, 01:38:18 AM »

I've always considered a barong as more of a chopper than a stabber.  Sometimes they are used as tools like bolos, though that would be more expensive than just using a bolo.  There are bolos with barong-shaped blades and these would be thicker than barong-shaped machetes, but I've not seen them for sale anywhere online.

I don't know if it is still going on but when my relatives were in the Philippines they could not bring back bolos they bought in Zamboanga in their check-in luggage.  I asked around online and there was some new law keeping large blades from being shipped out of Mindanao.  Other regions seemed to be OK. 

Here are a few online sources for barongs:

http://www.valiantco.com/philippines.html

http://www.traditionalfilipinoweapons.com/

https://www.kriscutlery.com/documents/philippine.html

http://www.knifeoutlet.com/shop/10Expand.asp?ProductCode=CS88PB

http://www.swordsoftheeast.com/index.asp?PageAction=VIEWPROD&ProdID=109

http://www.amobhitman.com/customer/product.php?productid=4944

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Professor

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Re: Machete
« Reply #17 on: November 23, 2007, 06:20:00 AM »

Quote

First things first, The Machete was never imagined as a thrusting weapon but as a very fast slicing or hacking weapon where the Barong was and always has been primarily a thrusting weapon that was good at hacking. Where the Machete has been stamped out as a field tool for years the Barong was a proper sword.



Bryan,

I think you have this sentence mixed up.  A barong is a hacking weapons, not designed for thrusting.   The blade dynamics certainly aren't made for thrusting.....loping of limbs, yes.

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  'Advanced' is being able to do the basics, despite what else is happening. 

Our Country won't go on forever, if we stay soft as we are now. There won't be any AMERICA because some foreign soldiery will invade us and take our women and breed a hardier race!"  --- Chesty Puller, USMC

Bryan Lee

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Re: Machete
« Reply #18 on: November 23, 2007, 07:56:10 AM »

Quote

First things first, The Machete was never imagined as a thrusting weapon but as a very fast slicing or hacking weapon where the Barong was and always has been primarily a thrusting weapon that was good at hacking. Where the Machete has been stamped out as a field tool for years the Barong was a proper sword.



Bryan,

I think you have this sentence mixed up.  A barong is a hacking weapons, not designed for thrusting.   The blade dynamics certainly aren't made for thrusting.....loping of limbs, yes.



  No mix up, but it is a arguable point. The basis of my argument here is that the Barong is very sharp and not weighted at the point. If it were primarily a cutting or hacking weapon it would be heavier on the working end, it will go either way when forged but 3mm 1055 steel does not add up for a good thrusting weapon. I dont believe you will find any Barongs made that way either thus the Machete/Barong and 20 dollar price tag.

  Benjimen, I dont go for the commercial stuff as a rule, when I mentioned contacting a Filipino Bladesmith I was thinking of Paolo Abrera, you can see a piece of his work here on a interview about him. If you guys need to contact him to make a knife just let me know and I will have him get in touch with you as we have a mutual friend.

http://www.arscives.com/bladesign/texturedbowie.htm
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JimH, "Bryan, have you seen the Elephant?"  Bryan Lee, "I Am The MotherFFFFing Elephant!"

Bryan Lee

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Re: Machete
« Reply #19 on: December 08, 2007, 06:59:49 AM »

Would You Hit Someone with a Machete If They Broke Into Your House?

Cenk-Uygur
Posted Dec 6th 2007 3:03PM by Cenk Uygur
Filed under: Young Turks, Crime, Video
Yesterday on the show (actually in our more uninhibited post-game show) we were talking about how Sean Taylor, the Redskins player who was killed by a robber last week, had a machete by his bed in case intruders broke in.

I was on the side of not having a machete. And if you do have it, of not swinging it without asking questions. Wes Clark, Jr. (he is General Clark's son, he is a former Army captain and co-hosts with me on Wednesdays) and Jayar (our producer) were on the opposite side. They said swing first, ask questions later.




http://news.aol.com/newsbloggers/2007/12/06/would-you-hit-someone-with-a-machete-if-they-broke-into-your-hou/
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JimH, "Bryan, have you seen the Elephant?"  Bryan Lee, "I Am The MotherFFFFing Elephant!"

Bryan Lee

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Re: Machete
« Reply #20 on: December 08, 2007, 07:12:35 AM »

Police reports suggest that early Monday morning, four men broke into Taylor’s house for a burglary, surprising Taylor in his bedroom. He grabbed the machete that he keeps under his bed for protection, but he was too late. Shots were fired, and one landed in Taylor’s femoral artery. Fortunately, his girlfriend and 18-month-old daughter were not injured. Taylor suffered copious amounts of blood loss and never regained consciousness. He died early Tuesday.







"[Taylor's former lawyer] said Taylor's girlfriend told him the couple was awakened by loud noises, and Taylor grabbed a machete he keeps in the bedroom for protection. Someone then broke through the door and fired two shots ... one hitting Taylor."

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JimH, "Bryan, have you seen the Elephant?"  Bryan Lee, "I Am The MotherFFFFing Elephant!"

Benjamin Liu

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Re: Machete
« Reply #21 on: December 08, 2007, 01:26:52 PM »

I read a post on another forum using this incident as an example of why knives are useless as weapons, but the story I posted on the store owner from Jamaica had the opposite outcome, where the guy with the machete beat the gunman who even fired first.

I don't know exactly what happened in this case, but if the guy with the machete brandishes it rather than using it the odds are against him.  People use the Indiana Jones example all the time when arguing against knives, not realizing that the swordsman was brandishing and showing off rather than attacking.  It is also true that if someone attacks first and by surprise the weapon doesn't matter all that much.
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michael

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Re: Machete
« Reply #22 on: December 08, 2007, 01:57:32 PM »

The brain and the will are the weapon, not the implement itself. A weapon is merely an extension of the will.
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**To be a warrior is not a simple matter of wishing to be one. It is rather an endless struggle that will go on to the very last moment of our lives. Nobody is born a warrior, in exactly the same way that nobody is born an average man. We make ourselves into one or the other.** Carlos Castaneda

Bryan Lee

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Re: Machete
« Reply #23 on: December 09, 2007, 01:12:06 AM »

I read a post on another forum using this incident as an example of why knives are useless as weapons, but the story I posted on the store owner from Jamaica had the opposite outcome, where the guy with the machete beat the gunman who even fired first.

I don't know exactly what happened in this case, but if the guy with the machete brandishes it rather than using it the odds are against him.  People use the Indiana Jones example all the time when arguing against knives, not realizing that the swordsman was brandishing and showing off rather than attacking.  It is also true that if someone attacks first and by surprise the weapon doesn't matter all that much.

  My understanding was he was shot as he came out of the bedroom, if anyone gets any more details please post them. There are many circumstances where a knife is more deadly than a gun, this was not one of them unfortunately for the young football star.
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JimH, "Bryan, have you seen the Elephant?"  Bryan Lee, "I Am The MotherFFFFing Elephant!"

fire

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Re: Machete
« Reply #24 on: February 05, 2008, 08:52:04 AM »

I am on record as being a big fan of the machete as both a tool and weapon- and have sold several to us soldiers departing for Iraq - the idea being that if one needed a blade for fighting, then it was about as big as they came, and was a tool as well, thus worth carrying for the 99 + percent of the time that they were not needed as a weapon......  and hell, thousands of africans with grudges against their tribal enemies are successfully slaughtering each other with nothing else........ and most of the caribean and south america swears by them too- and asia, ok hell, anywhere where guns are either restricted or too expensive, for the poor to own, they are the weapon of choice.......
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Bryan Lee

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Re: Machete
« Reply #25 on: February 05, 2008, 10:43:09 PM »

I am on record as being a big fan of the machete as both a tool and weapon- and have sold several to us soldiers departing for Iraq - the idea being that if one needed a blade for fighting, then it was about as big as they came, and was a tool as well, thus worth carrying for the 99 + percent of the time that they were not needed as a weapon......  and hell, thousands of africans with grudges against their tribal enemies are successfully slaughtering each other with nothing else........ and most of the caribean and south america swears by them too- and asia, ok hell, anywhere where guns are either restricted or too expensive, for the poor to own, they are the weapon of choice.......

  Good Post, Glad somebody else is interested in the Machete. It is about as basic as a hardcore blade can get, cheap, and deadly.

  What kind of Machete were you selling, Ontario? Cold Steel? Other? What length were people asking for? Did you get any feedback as to how they were used?

Here in Thailand the favorite tool is basically a 10 to 14 inch machete mounted on a 18 to 24 inch stick as a handle. It makes one hell of a chopper by loading up the weight on the end.
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fire

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Re: Machete
« Reply #26 on: February 09, 2008, 03:26:57 PM »

 commonly, I sold the cold steel pangas, double edge , and kukri and magnum kukri machetes- myself I like their panga, and used it to reclaim the backyard of a property I bought on the courthouse steps (it will soon house my brother in law and his family)- five hours of cutting small trees, and branches, and brush, and it never quit, and was resharpened on the concrete of the porch......at to soldier feedback, other than one guy who said his friend recommended one cause they would have heavy jungle along the rivers, I have not gotten any real reports.....  I know one of hocks students carried one, the double edge model, into meth lab raids cause he was the paramedic, and they would not let him carry a weapon, but a machete is a tool..... (I love missouri) to my knowledge he did not have to use it......
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whitewolf

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Re: Machete
« Reply #27 on: February 09, 2008, 05:30:52 PM »

BLee-although i can not forward any photos -this past week in the newspapers over here in Kuwait there have  been photos taken of the fighting in Kenya and in a  lot of them the attackers are waving machetes which the news has documented in saying they  have cut off arms/heads using them-one picture showed this attacker with the machete raised above his head . I dont know if it was posed for the camera but the weapon looked very  dangeous. As a side note there were photos also of rioters using bow and arrows plus a picture of a victim sitting in a local  hospital  with a arrow sticking in the side of  his  head.-whitewolf
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