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Author Topic: size,strength and the martial feminist  (Read 3659 times)

Bryant

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size,strength and the martial feminist
« on: December 31, 2007, 02:24:01 PM »

In a recent conversation with a female acquaintance who is thinking of studying martial arts I was accused of being chauvinist because
I said that as a 145 pound woman she would be ill advised to study an art that depended primarily on strength for the techniques to work.
Although I explained that irregardless of whether you are a man or a woman you have to take size and strength into consideration
more than likely if a criminal confronts you they will either be larger than you, or they may have a weapon or possibly both.
has anyone else had this difficulty with the subject of women and martial arts. i think that if a women of small stature takes a
good crack from a larger stronger male , it's pretty much a wrap. btw The art in question was thai boxing

is it wrong to think that 9 times out of 10, if a woman knuckles up and goes toe to toe with a man
she is going to lose

a woman can out think a man
a woman can out manuever a man

but the fact of the matter is the avergage man is stronger and has a greater physical constitution than the average woman
« Last Edit: December 31, 2007, 03:53:32 PM by Bryant »
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FredVS

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Re: size,strength and the martial feminist
« Reply #1 on: December 31, 2007, 06:53:25 PM »

Bryant, You are spot on in your assessment. There are always exceptions to the rule but 99% of the time the women would get stomped .
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kamagong

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Re: size,strength and the martial feminist
« Reply #2 on: December 31, 2007, 07:17:18 PM »

Bryan, I usually tell women that this is where we get into the realm of possibility and probability.  It is possible for a 100 lb woman to beat up a 200 lb man.  But, it is probably not going to happen.  All training does for both men and women is to stack the deck in their favor.  It is similar for men.  If a smaller slighter man goes up against a larger man, then the results can be the same.  My assistant instructor is a female and is about 5'2.  We taught a seminar to a group primarily made up of large burly men, but some very small slight women as well, and some little guys.  One of the smaller women got partnered up with a big 6' 270lb guy.  She kept saying, "what should I do, he keeps just pulling his arm out of all the techniques I do?" we had to explain to her that she would have to go to lethal techniques on him.  Her lethal techniques would actually be less than lethal on him.
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Karl

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Re: size,strength and the martial feminist
« Reply #3 on: January 01, 2008, 01:33:54 AM »

One way to convince her of your point of view.

Get a male of 150 Kg. to lie on top of her, and ask her to get the Guy of her.

That normally convinces most woman.
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whitewolf

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Re: size,strength and the martial feminist
« Reply #4 on: January 01, 2008, 02:24:08 AM »

Karl-correct assumption-also add to the picture he slaps her (not hit) and it brings tears to  her  eyes-then she does into fright and probably just  gives up-i have trained rape victims and every one i interviewed could  not win when the male attacker started his attack-we as instructors train the ladies but i see some of the instructors really dont get into reality type training so she can fight him off-most females are not in jennifer lopez physical shape and in a movie they are attacked by a stalker who probably  has done it  before and knows how to overcome-we should insure that we train the students to :
1-Learn about stalkers methods
2-Learn to watch  their  back
3-learn to get the hell away if they feel threatened while out in public
4-Leave a spouse who physically abuses them before he really hurts them
5-train them in simple direct cqc methods that will work  for  them
6-pracise surprise attacks against them(and use #5 above)
7-practise approaching their car/front door/garage/ladies toilets in public areas and reading the signals that strangers give off nearby. (and use #5 above).
8-Stay off the internet to  meet people (many  do today).

I could go  on and on-point is a ounce of prevention may safe both a woman and man from winding up on the lossing end of the deal.

stay safe-witewolf



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JimH

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Re: size,strength and the martial feminist
« Reply #5 on: January 01, 2008, 08:33:17 AM »

In an attack scenario,and many fight scenarios,a woman will be beaten by a man who is intent on doing something to her,including inflicting pain,if she tries to go toe to toe and fight him.
(this also holds true for many small men who fight or are confronted by bigger men)

If I take a 100-150 pound person,male or female ,and have them confronted by a man who weighs 200-300 pounds,muscular or Fat,most time the Bigger person will easily eat the first strikes and when they hit back with intent the smaller person will soon lose interest in the conflict and pay the price.

The problem is the mindset and training of most of the smaler people.

A smaller person,male or female,should not be punching and kicking at large body mass targets of a much bigger opponent,as in a competiton for points, and they should not be trying to take a Bigger person to the ground by trying throws and or take downs.

One needs to foster the mindset of going all out and going to disable the bigger person,terminate the conflict,not enrage the conflict.

Instead of punches and kicks to the thighs,back,chest or abs one should concentrate on destroying the joints of the knee,the elbow,the fingers,attack the groin(though this generates a low yield response most times as the kick is done wrong and adrenaline is flowing) or strikes to the neck,throat,eyes or nose.

While even with these set of targets the smaller person still may not be able to stop the bigger person these targets are better off being used ,with a higher chance of some form of success,rather than point or contact sport type movements which will only be irritants to the bigger person and generate a more viscious response.

I tell women,people in general, to depend more on awareness.
Awareness will keep them out of trouble more than thinking that they can fight their way out if things go wrong.
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whitewolf

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Re: size,strength and the martial feminist
« Reply #6 on: January 01, 2008, 09:19:10 AM »

Hello JimH-you are right also-these traditional karate moves where the person is taught to strike at the large body  masses and told that will work are scary to  me-I had a nurse take some self defense lessons from me and I wore a heavy jacket-i showed her the fist strike wont work-she had to get the mind set to claw or stab the eyes /elbow the face repeatedly-etc etc-also without the mind set to  come out of the attack a winner the feeble strike wont get it-
This particular lady was at the time about 55 years old-out of  shape and worried about being attacked-part of what i had to  do  is get her to keep on going when she got tired out while we trained-this is important to me when instructing someone who at first just sort of  gives up -we worked on her endurance and it got better and as it got better she got more aggressive-anyhow stay  safe-whitewolf
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olderguy

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Re: size,strength and the martial feminist
« Reply #7 on: January 01, 2008, 12:15:41 PM »

As 170lbs older male student (one year) not an instructor. Although my skills have improved tremendously in the last year, their is no way at 170lbs I would want to "kick-box" a 220lbs attacker unless I had no other choice.
I think the best thing for me in training is getting my ass handed to me sparring with bigger more skilled students. It reminds me that size does matter and I would have to change my mindset if confronted by a large attacker. As mentioned above, joint attacks, throat, nose and groin would at least give me the time I would need to get out or get enough of an advantage to finish the fight.

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JimH

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Re: size,strength and the martial feminist
« Reply #8 on: January 01, 2008, 01:18:53 PM »

I have a friend who teaches Shotokan private/semi private lessons.

He has seen me teach and asked me to come over and speak to this 18 year old student he had been training who wanted to go into the Army , he also wanted me to evaluate her training and show them some of what I do.

He had her do her forms and then had a partner attack her in prearranged attacks and defenses.

I watched and saw what I have seen over and over an art,more for demonstartions than Reality.

He said what do you think.
I said she is good at the basics,I would say she is a mid belt level maybe Green Belt.
He hit the roof,he said she is a Black Belt Level if not then high Brown.
I said well you asked my opinion and I gave you that.
She was standing there disappointed as I guess he had built her up that I would be impressed.
(She wants to be a Black Belt before she joins the Army in hopes of becoming a H2H Instructor???)

He asked what about her Self Defense moves ?
I said they were Great for a Demo but doubted she could do anything in a Realistic attack.
He wanted to have the partner attack her again,I said how about I attack her,just a grab,a choke,no real intent or power.
He said OK,she said OK.

I am 6-1 250 lbs approx.
She is about 5-4 maybe and about 120 pounds.

I did not tell her the attacks I would do just grabbed her and she was lost.

I grabbed and pulled her arm (slowly),she did nothing.
I grabbed her in a front two hand choke and pushed her (slowly)to the wall,she did nothing.

I said rather than grab you and pull or push I will stand statically ,grab and just stand there.

I grabbed her arm and stood there,she did a downward hard block/strike with her other arm ,did not break away,stepped back and punched,the punch landing Nowhere near me.

I asked why the punch was so far away.

My friend says she has learned to harness her Ki and does that for safety,if not she could hurt or kill me.

I looked at him and asked if he was for real.

He replied yes,and he was serious.

I said to her to do it again this time with intent to break away and make the strike,to hit me with REAL contact.

I grabbed her arm again,she did the same exact technique with the same intensity,did not break away,this time she made contact with the punch and I barely knew she made contact.

Again my friend says she is using safety measures as the full power of a strike could be deadly.

I said to him,I wanted her to hit me,just step in and hit me with a punch,no grab. nothing.

He tells her to punch.

I stood there in no stance ,no prpeparation and she punched me high in the chest with all her might and again I knew she hit me but it did nothing to stop or deter me ,if I wanted to bash her head in.

I told him,her and the partner that I could have continued on with my attack and once I hit her in the face I could most likely do to her what I want.

Then my friend asked me to attack her different ways,with the same outcome,nothing that would stop me.

He was a little annoyed.

Then he asked me to show them some stuff and I did,they saw what I do,liked the attitude of taking the attackers knee right away,taking his balance and ending the conflict.

He has not asked me back to watch or evaluate anyone else,lol.

I tell this,not that I know something,or that his materials are no good but to show that what many teach and train their students to do is sport,unrealistic for a real conflict in todays world,yet they and the students think they are TRAINED for and can make it work in the street.
(Todays world: I mean the teachings were originally for men of similar size,not women against men,not much larger men against smaller men,they were nationally similar men,so what they did worked more or less against people of similar structure and strength)

To tell people that this kind of traditional stuff works against anyone and everyone is a joke.
To train them to contact large mass/muscle surfaces and allow them to believe they have one punch stopping ability to those targets is a joke.

Have a Big guy attack a little person and see if the response they give works for Real.

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juszczec

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Re: size,strength and the martial feminist
« Reply #9 on: January 01, 2008, 04:35:49 PM »

In a recent conversation with a female acquaintance who is thinking of studying martial arts I was accused of being chauvinist because
I said that as a 145 pound woman she would be ill advised to study an art that depended primarily on strength for the techniques to work.

Its very curious this is called chauvinism.

Weight is weight.  Striking methods depend on using your weight to make the strike worse.  The more weight you've got, the worse you can make your strikes when they land.

I'm a 175lb man.  If 250lbs hits me - its 250lbs regardless of the genitalia.

Has anyone ever run into a fighting method that relies primarily on strength?  I thought the point of all "methods" was to show ways to get more bang for your physical buck.

JimH

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Re: size,strength and the martial feminist
« Reply #10 on: January 02, 2008, 09:42:18 AM »

Males in society have,for the most part,grown up being physical,figting for their place in the group or playing contact sports.

Females do not,for the most part,engage in contact sport or fighting for a place,they are not as strong physically so I doubt a 200 pound woman fighting a 200 pound man would be equal,unless the woman had an abundance of testosterone.

Most females do not have the upper body strength to match a man so in an art ,sport or fight in which chest muscles,shoulders,back and core strength generate power for a strike I believe most women will not fair well no matter the amount of training in fighting.

If size and weight were the only factors and not the genitalia then women would be Boxing men for championship bouts or we would see them on the football field.

Now on the other hand a 150 pound man and his 250 pound girlfriend might present a problem for the man in the domestic dispute department.
(depends on the background of the man and woman)
but
In reverse a 250 pound man and his 150 pound woman should present no problem for the man to do what he wanted physically.

Mindset,physical musculature,strength,tesosterone and genetalia play a Big part in a fight.

While training can show you how to maximize your ability it will not transform you from Clark Kent to Superman,but perhaps it can show you how to develop your own unigue applications that work for you.
(Like Helio Gracie taking the Judo they were shown and making it soley a Ground Game application because he was not strong enough to go toe to toe)

If it were the skill alone and not the genetalia why are there no Gracie women in the UFC or Pride?

One must look at the reality of expectations from training and not the Hype of training.

Again ,take a Man and woman of equal weight and size and put them against each other at various levels,Untrained man and woman,similar trained man and woman,untrained man/trained woman and allow them to go at it for real and see what the out comes are.

Most attackers,as most Bullies,  select their targets and aim for intimidation by size or with a weapon,so equality rarely enters the Reality of conflict.

This is why fairness on the street does not work,cheat,strike first,strike hard,destroy the target and move on through by any and all means.

My opinion anyway.
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grlaun

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Re: size,strength and the martial feminist
« Reply #11 on: January 02, 2008, 10:37:38 AM »

All is right.  I am not a big guy and most of the people I train with are bigger & stronger.  I like that, its made me develop a mentality of 'do anything' the TKD I learned for 12 years is basically useless in a true street confrontation with a determined attacker or any confrontation with a determined attacker (I am wondering about this term 'the street' do all fights take place there?)!  The SFC/Ground Combatives/Hawaiian stuff I've learned over the past 10(!) years has changed all that.  I know what I'm getting into with bigger attackers and mentality makes up for some of the physical strength but not all.  Strategy has to do with it an old Hock quote I hold on to from his old yellow belt Filipino Combatives is: "Whoever brings the mostest the firstest wins..." so its attack brutally and endlessly until I achieve my goal. Smaller is ALWAYS a handicap agaist bigger guys but not a guarantee of failure - just more likely...
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whitewolf

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Re: size,strength and the martial feminist
« Reply #12 on: January 02, 2008, 11:16:28 AM »

JimH/Grlaun-the story you related Jim is scary-the student swings away  from you because she does not want to hurt you-are you shitting me............The instructor should be ashamed of himself-this girl will get buried in the real  world- and as far as going into the armed forces to be a H2H instructor-dam--have her go through the crucible in Marine boot camp with the women marines-if she can finish  that  then start to  really study self defense-back to the instructor you talked about-how come he did not try his H2H with you as the attacker-ill tell you  why he is only a paper tiger-no guts no glory-he better start over his studies-is he a super great grand master at he ripe old age of 29-30?? i reread your post again and all i  can  say is send him to  Hocks or you  guys  classes ..
i am  out of  here-got to go  to  work tonight..Oh also what do you thnk Gary would have said if  he saw that demo ???-stay  safe guys  whitewolf..
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