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Author Topic: Gross motor skills and internal dialog article  (Read 3875 times)

hessian1

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Gross motor skills and internal dialog article
« on: March 12, 2008, 07:04:22 PM »


    Happened to come across this article (actually got it in an email) and it parallels some of my own thoughts on loss of skill under pressure as a rule instead of a general guideline.
 I believe Hock may have covered some of the comments made previously and this may tie into the the startle reflex discussion. Hope you find it interesting as well.

Keep safe and train hard,  Mark H
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Keep safe and train hard,  Mark H

hessian1

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Re: Gross motor skills and internal dialog article
« Reply #1 on: March 12, 2008, 07:05:46 PM »


   Sorry guys,  heres the link:


   

  http://www.streetfightsecrets.com/60.html
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Keep safe and train hard,  Mark H

whitewolf

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Re: Gross motor skills and internal dialog article
« Reply #2 on: March 12, 2008, 11:17:44 PM »

I read some of the info on the link-dont know the gentleman so i  cant really comment-waiting for some thoughts from others-whitewolf
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gematriot

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Re: Gross motor skills and internal dialog article
« Reply #3 on: March 13, 2008, 04:09:12 AM »

Hi. Here goes my 5 cents on the article.
Although I agree that some level of neuromuscular control can be retained in stressful situations, IMHO that level of control is directly proportional to expertise, emotional state and / or personality.
Expertise in any area requires consistant practice over a long period of time; (Scientific American states that the development of expertise takes approx. 10 years). Emotional state is a major factor in such confrontations since anxiety / fear can provoke gross motor movement, while being "cool, calm and collected" can contribute to finer motor control. The issue is: the confort zone of the expert can be expected to be higher than the non expert in a similar situation.
This is where that article fails.
By mentioning the skill of the expert (surgeon) in his confort zone (operating table), the author makes no mention of the fact that that same surgeon could very well fumble in a stressful situation outside of his confort zone.
Where the article really takes a plunge is the presentation of NLP as the solution to this problem, rather than good old scenario - based stress inoculation training. While NLP has had some sporadic successes in certain areas (example: the control of phobias etc); in the main the methods it uses are not significantly different to those used in sports psychology.
The general scientific outlook is that NLP is, at best proto-scientific. At worst it is pseudo-scientific and, when it attempts to aplly concepts relating to the world of "self help", to such sobering subjects as combatives, DANGEROUS. The following quotes can be seen as supportive of this outlook:

Eisner in 'The Death of Psychotherapy', states that not "one iota of clinical research supports their (NLP proponents) claims. Apparently, no peer-reviewed researched has been published in over a decade. Moreover, there has been virtually no comparative research recently that assesses NLP's effectiveness."

Evidence-based psychologist Lilienfield, describes NLP as "a scientifically unsubstantiated therapeutic method that purports to "program" brain functioning through a variety of techniques, including mirroring the postures and nonverbal behaviors of clients" and include it in their description "(Quick Fix + Pseudoscientific Gloss) x Credulous Public = High Income".

Devilly states that "at the time of its introduction, NLP was heralded as a breakthrough in therapy and advertisements for training workshops, videos and books began to appears in trade magazines. The workshops provided certification... However, controlled studies shed such a poor light on the practice, and those promoting the intervention made such extreme and changeable claims that researchers began to question the wisdom of researching the area further and even suggested that NLP was an untestable theory"..."NLP is no longer as prevalent as it was in the 1970s or 1980s, but is still practiced in small pockets of the human resource community. The science has come and gone, yet the belief still remains".

What is disturbing is that such practices as NLP appear to be gaining prevalance while mainstream branches of psychotherapy, such as Cognitive Behavioral Therapy, which is conceptually similar in many ways to NLP. For example, both are based on the idea that people act and feel based on their perception of the world rather than the actual world itself, both involve techniques to find and modify harmful beliefs, both discuss "reframing", and both advise that behaviour change greatly facilitates the integration of new, more beneficial beliefs.
However, Cognitive Behavioral Therapy and its forerunner Cognitive Therapy now have a history of more than 40 years of experimental testing, verification, and refinement by many different individuals, all of it performed not-for-profit and published publicly in peer-reviewed journals. In this sense it may be seen as an evidence-based alternative to NLP.

HERE ENDS MY RANT :-\
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Hock

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Re: Gross motor skills and internal dialog article
« Reply #4 on: March 13, 2008, 08:10:21 AM »

Expertise in any area requires consistant practice over a long period of time; (Scientific American states that the development of expertise takes approx. 10 years).

and of course, in the equation, must be the chore.
Experise in what?
Pencil sharpening expertise might come a lot quicker than ten years.

Things that are more "natural" and is some sense a "gross motor movement" (and I hate that term, or at least what it has become in police and martial training) may require different times of practice.

I think people are different, and rates of learning and mastering and subject matter vary.

Chief Expert Bottle Washer (two year degree!)
Hock

whitewolf

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Re: Gross motor skills and internal dialog article
« Reply #5 on: March 13, 2008, 11:12:44 AM »

OK-I saw some thoughts-1-Hock-I think you said some valid things-personally i think that one becomes a professional  and knows how to react to a situation all depends on the situation and how many  times they are put into that situation-i.e. a police officeer on foot patrol better learn "quickly" the street signs or he will either miss a problem or even become a statistic/a patrol officer driving in Kuwait better learn how to navigate or he will be come a statistic(thats me)-lastly 10  years is a hell of a  long time .. what says you guys-whitewolf (el  lobo  blanco)
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Nick Hughes

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Re: Gross motor skills and internal dialog article
« Reply #6 on: March 13, 2008, 12:37:20 PM »

My big problem with the attack on NLP is it's done by another scientist who's taken a contrary viewpoint and so denigrates his opposition.  When Tony Robbins began using it to cure phobias in five minutes, the guys who earned $600 an hour curing phobias that took five years to cure didn't like it.  Big surprise.

Robbins did challenge the Army using NLP to improve a group of recruits shooting as opposed to training the old way and the test group learned faster and outperformed the others.

I also have a mate who was involved in Project Jedi in the US Army back in the 70s who went on to work with NASA and the BMW racing team - all with quantifiable results.

The only other thing I'd say about it, with regards to results, is I have seen first hand people in my former real estate office take a course in it for selling who's sales improved considerably after doing the course.

Like anything, some people get better results than others.

Nick

PS: When Robbins was using it to cure people he did so on national television and was challenged by psychiatrists and psychologist alike...one of them was so impressed when he cured one of his incurable patients in five minutes that he went on to train with him.
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hessian1

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Re: Gross motor skills and internal dialog article
« Reply #7 on: March 13, 2008, 12:37:33 PM »


    Ok guys thanks for the input. I'm not sold on NLP but some of the earlier comments resonante with me...particularly the topic of experts in their field being able to maintain skills in their arena.  The thing is, I believe people (particularly LE and Security) should view violence as their field of expertise (this can also include well trained and motivated citizens)and therefore should be able to operate at a higher level in violent confrontation. Now before everyone chimes in about I know this LE or that Security guy that couldn't fight his way out of a paper bag ( 20 year LEO myself) I'm referring to people who recognize the nature of their work and what should be their goals. 

    The best analogies I've heard are doctors fight illness, firemen fight fire, and cops fight violence.  This is why I agree with some of the author's comments about violence.  As to NLP, well its a relatively young field so time will tell (although big business seems to embracing some of the concepts in sales or at least their dumping a lot of money on the seminars)

PS.  Hock, great article in the ILEETA Use of Force Journal

Keep safe and train hard, Mark H
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Benjamin Liu

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Re: Gross motor skills and internal dialog article
« Reply #8 on: March 13, 2008, 02:58:35 PM »

I studied social sciences in college, and in my Social Psychology class, the textbook covers establishing rapport as taught in NLP since the 1970s but does not mention NLP.  Instead, the method is portrayed as being "discovered" by social scientists in 1992.  Everything in the "study" was available in Tony Robbins' best-seller "Unilimited Power" so I seriously doubt that the people involved have not heard of NLP.  In short, one of the foundations of the NLP communication model was verified but NLP was not given any credit, instead it was portrayed as the work of mainstream social scientists.

NLP is like martial arts, the skills are there but people need to learn them well in order to use them well.  Some "studies" I've seen are like people who watch a martial arts video, take notes, don't take the time to master the skills, then get into a fight, get beat up, and then claim that the skills don't work.

Some critiques I've read "exposing" NLP state things like how Bandler and Grinder and others don't get along as "evidence" of NLP not working.  This is a problem that has long been known within the NLP community and the reason is common sense.  People who use these skills to manipulate others (or just anyone who manipulates others by any means) as their default means of communication usually will not get along with other manipulators since both manipulators will want to be the manipulator in the relationship and not the one manipulated.  All this proves is that being a jerk is not a good thing in the long run, something everyone already knows.

Certifications are like martial arts ranks, some instructors give them to anyone taking a class and others make you work for them.  Like in martial arts, the skills of practitioners vary greatly.  Most trainings are for therapy, with some oriented towards business.  I've seen very little material for sports.

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JimH

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Re: Gross motor skills and internal dialog article
« Reply #9 on: March 13, 2008, 04:05:11 PM »

NLP can be used by someone with knowledge and training to help people recorrect flaws and or recreate winning scenarios,if applied as in this discussion to Self Defense.

NLP is also a method of use for people to visualize and mentally recreate an action and if fully understood and duplicated one can shorten the learning to implementation stage.

As Nick Said, Tony Robbins has shown this on TV shows and applied it to the US Army shooters,athletes and people in general that he has interacted with.

Tony Robbins learned basic NLP and then invented his own brand  which he calls
Neuroassociative conditioning.
(Mentally conditioning people ,or your self,to visualize,create and implement a desired condition)

What Guy Sevelli did in Project Jedi was considered by outsiders to be a failure as Mr Sevelli claimed he could create people who could project thought and kill at distance.
It is claimed that he was able to do it once as another Sgt was also said to,but the Sgt suffered traumatic Heart problems due to what was called sympathetic energy release.
No one else was able to carry the process to that level.
But
What was able to be done was that through a Form of NLP,self Meditation and self Hypnosis,men were able to execute their tasks with less effort.
Task Concentration improved.
Some men developed a sort of sense when approaching danger areas or enemy positions.
(some believe we already pocess these skills ,training just heightens the senses to be more open these feelings)

Col Nick Rowe,US Army Special Forces believed a form of this mind control allowed him to survive as a POW in Vietnam and drove him to endure the beatings and torture he got as a result of his repeated attempts at escape.
Col Rowe was the man responsible for the hiring of Mr Sevelli and the man who pushed for the project and testing to go forward.

NLP is a name/title for one using ones mind to perfect themselves and their skill,not unlike historical use of Meditation for personal use and combat preparations or combat training.

It has a use if one decides to employ it as properly instructed.

One must have a model or thought of perfection and then mentally work it till it is doable then apply the action as needed and further perfect it.
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