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  • January 16, 2018, 11:37:28 AM
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Author Topic: Sturdy airsofts?  (Read 2593 times)

Snowball

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Sturdy airsofts?
« on: January 11, 2008, 07:18:25 AM »

Anyone have a recommendation on an airsoft pistol that can stand up to the abuse of H2H training? I bought a nice, sturdy Glock copy but it is gas-powered and a tad nastier than most are willing to work with.
We've used the battery-operated ones and they tend to break quickly. Very quickly.
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Hock

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Re: Sturdy airsofts?
« Reply #1 on: January 11, 2008, 09:33:23 AM »

Big problem.
Might have to switch guns mid stream...

AND, one of the reasons I often use...brace yourself...rubber band, wooden guns. If you interrupt the rubber band on the top of the gun, you might be interrupting the slide operation of a semi-auto. So the grab results might be similar.

I do believe there are some EXPENSIVE gas gun replicas, but the plastic battery-ones?

Hock

hessian1

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Re: Sturdy airsofts?
« Reply #2 on: January 11, 2008, 12:50:35 PM »


   Hey all,

       I've had some luck with the Tipman T-400 models ( they run about $50-60) and operate off of CO2 in the magazines.  They are part metal part plastic, but the slide does  not truly operate.  The partial movement of the slide will prevent firing like a real weapon, but the slide doesn't cycle like a real weapon. The slide not moving is what helps make them last longer during FOF/disarm/retention drills.
       The CO2 is stronger than the spring/electric models, but not as bad as the green gas/propane tank models. I have two Glock types that have been abused pretty badly and still operate.  Hope this helps.

  Keep safe and train hard, Mark H
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Keep safe and train hard,  Mark H

hessian1

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Re: Sturdy airsofts?
« Reply #3 on: January 11, 2008, 12:53:18 PM »


      Almost  forgot.  Make sure you use face masks when using the guns and the addition of weight lifting gloves for the hands can save a little as far as injuries go.

   Keep safe and train hard,  Mark H
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Keep safe and train hard,  Mark H

Bryan Lee

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Re: Sturdy airsofts?
« Reply #4 on: January 11, 2008, 06:23:23 PM »



  A simple rubber band gun sounds good, after all your not one of the airsoft kids or paintball people with 1,000 rounds of ammo and endless kills by suppressive fire lacking tactics.

(break for typing as 10 APCs and a half dozen deuce and half's full of men blow past my office at full speed shaking the place like a small earthquake with sirens for effect, hope their not heading downtown but TIT, This Is Thailand, ends break)

Here is another idea, just remember stay safe, you only have two eyes but years and years to keep training, protect your eyes #1 priority. Get yourself a Daisy Air Pistol and do not load it with any ammo (BBs or pellets). Never load it with any ammo, wear eye protection anyway but shoot air, it is unlikely but possible that the air shot could project dirt or some other object so again wear eye protection but shoot only air, I think I'm being clear here but if any does not understand, ask?

http://www.daisy.com/shopping/customer/home.php?cat=259

  Daisy of course is as old school as it can get when it comes to airguns, but they are good quality and cheep, even the 200 dollar airsofts are a bit fragile but these should be on sale at many places or online, Daisy is getting set up for the training market, late, but they are getting there.


      $ 49.99
http://www.daisy.com/shopping/customer/product.php?productid=16155&cat=259&page=1


     $ 79.99
http://www.daisy.com/shopping/customer/product.php?productid=16153&cat=259&page=1


$ 84.99
http://www.daisy.com/shopping/customer/product.php?productid=16295&cat=259&page=1
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JimH, "Bryan, have you seen the Elephant?"  Bryan Lee, "I Am The MotherFFFFing Elephant!"

hessian1

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Re: Sturdy airsofts?
« Reply #5 on: January 11, 2008, 08:43:58 PM »


  Bryan,

      I can't agree more with you about protecting the eyes, that's why I mentioned the face protection (full face including eyes) I only train using the same number of rounds
in the mag and the same number of mags I typically carry.

     I understand what your saying about airsofters in general but there are many good uses for airsoft in training.  The Daisy weapons are another good option about the same as the Tippmans that I mentioned.  The reason I use the BB's/ammo is the learning curve seems to be better when you have that visceral feed back ( a good sting helps sink the lesson in when you don't do it right).  Now if you're talking gun to the head or close to the head, then I can't agree more about the use of the empty weapon.

   Finally the face protection should be wrap around and the breathing apertures should have inner and outer screens that are offset and as small as possible.

Keep safe and train hard,  Mark H
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Keep safe and train hard,  Mark H

Snowball

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Re: Sturdy airsofts?
« Reply #6 on: January 11, 2008, 09:00:44 PM »

I love the Daisy idea, thanks Bryan! I agree on protecting the eyes. I never thought about using just the air push from an Empty Daisy though, that is excellent!

I have to admit that Hock's multi-round rubber band gun is pretty cool. I might have to buy one off him when he visits us next month.

Thanks for the help folks!

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Bryan Lee

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Re: Sturdy airsofts?
« Reply #7 on: January 12, 2008, 10:07:47 PM »


  Bryan,

      I can't agree more with you about protecting the eyes, that's why I mentioned the face protection (full face including eyes) I only train using the same number of rounds
in the mag and the same number of mags I typically carry.

     I understand what your saying about airsofters in general but there are many good uses for airsoft in training.  The Daisy weapons are another good option about the same as the Tippmans that I mentioned.  The reason I use the BB's/ammo is the learning curve seems to be better when you have that visceral feed back ( a good sting helps sink the lesson in when you don't do it right).  Now if you're talking gun to the head or close to the head, then I can't agree more about the use of the empty weapon.

   Finally the face protection should be wrap around and the breathing apertures should have inner and outer screens that are offset and as small as possible.

Keep safe and train hard,  Mark H



  All good valid information, The point about the just shooting air is that most of the nice airsofts leave one heck of a mark at less than seven feet. Another reason is if you deal with unknown students training accidents are more likely, no ammo, no eye put out.

  When your dealing with people who you know their backgrounds and safety records with firearms or your dealing with groups like police or military there is less chance of safety violations. I like airsoft guns, I even have a HK P7 airsoft, a copy of one of my all time favorite pistols. Airsoft is a fantastic training tool but there is one problem, airsoft attracts idiots. I disagree with the way some ranges refuse to control airsoft fire the sames as normal firearms for safety. Earlier this year year I had a idiot swing a M4 airsoft no less than four times pointing right at me and the range master never even payed attention to this situation. Airsoft = Idiots, if your professional and training other professionals airsoft again is a fantastic tool, As a general rule, I don't trust people who play games with guns, its training, training, and more training, not a game.


 

Snowball, The thing you want to beware of if is you get a odd piece of sand or something coming out of the end of the barrel at a high velocity. The point about shooting air is in many cases training involves scenarios where if the gun is engaged and fired you loose, so sound can be a training factor, also like was mentioned, at very close range your going to feel the air hit you, since training is not a game, there is no need of a marker to keep people honest like in paintball.

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JimH, "Bryan, have you seen the Elephant?"  Bryan Lee, "I Am The MotherFFFFing Elephant!"

hessian1

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Re: Sturdy airsofts?
« Reply #8 on: January 13, 2008, 06:59:12 AM »


   Bryan,

       I agree with what your saying about many airsoft aficionados in general, but most of my time training I spend in an LEO environment or one on one so it is easier to maintain
control of the training environment. Also agree with the no ammo for very close training the
air blast is usually enough.
       One great use of the airsoft/paintball is in gun vs knife scenarios this can help drive the "point" ( sorry about the pun) home about movement and combatives being needed to gain the time needed to effectively use your gun in these cases.
       
Keep safe and train hard,  Mark H
     
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Keep safe and train hard,  Mark H

Bryan Lee

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Re: Sturdy airsofts?
« Reply #9 on: January 13, 2008, 09:19:25 AM »


   Bryan,

       I agree with what your saying about many airsoft aficionados in general, but most of my time training I spend in an LEO environment or one on one so it is easier to maintain
control of the training environment. Also agree with the no ammo for very close training the
air blast is usually enough.
       One great use of the airsoft/paintball is in gun vs knife scenarios this can help drive the "point" ( sorry about the pun) home about movement and combatives being needed to gain the time needed to effectively use your gun in these cases.
       
Keep safe and train hard,  Mark H
     


  More good points ;D pun intended ;D ;D
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fire

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Re: Sturdy airsofts?
« Reply #10 on: January 16, 2008, 12:46:04 AM »

   We tried it with airsofts, and it does work well, the thing though is that any of them will break, even the high end ones, so we found that we could use the 10 dollar electrics that rely on the slide to fire- they break fast, but then become non shooting dummy gun still useful for practice, are available in about every style you could want-  have not tried the tipmans but would imagine that they too are  fragile enough that you are more looking at a life expectancy rather than if it will break or not......
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Virgil

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Re: Sturdy airsofts?
« Reply #11 on: January 17, 2008, 11:43:26 PM »



  Daisy of course is as old school as it can get when it comes to airguns, but they are good quality and cheep, even the 200 dollar airsofts are a bit fragile but these should be on sale at many places or online, Daisy is getting set up for the training market, late, but they are getting there.

Do the CO2 guns work well with the plastic BBs?  I have been in the market for a replacement airsoft for awhile (since I don't want to buy another $12 use-it-twice model) and have seen such CO2 guns in Wal-Mart but wasn't sure how they would work
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Benjamin Liu

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Re: Sturdy airsofts?
« Reply #12 on: January 23, 2008, 11:48:11 AM »

IMO training can be split up with the bulk of the disarm/retention training done with red or blue guns and then to test the students' skills use cheap airsofts.

The rubber band gun option also sounds interesting.

I don't like the idea of using BB or pellet guns.  I have one of the cheap Daisy CO2 pistols, not one of the newer semi-autos, and it is more powerful than I thought it would be.  I bought it for instinct shooting at maybe 30 feet but found out that it could penentrate drywall at 80-100 yards.  At close range it could possibly kill with an unlucky shot.  Sure, people doing disarm training will make sure there are no BBs or pellets in the gun, but the rule that all guns are always loaded still applies even though airguns are not firearms.  People have died after being shot with "unloaded" Daisy 880 rifles.
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JoeBrandt

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Re: Sturdy airsofts?
« Reply #13 on: January 24, 2008, 10:38:19 AM »

You have to split your training - we use rubber guns, airsoft guns, gas guns und our normal LE guns.

Is is hard to find a good training gun for grappling and tactical training.

Best to you
Joe
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Bryan Lee

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Re: Sturdy airsofts?
« Reply #14 on: January 26, 2008, 05:01:28 AM »



 The better Airsoft Guns have replaceable, upgradeable parts so repair should not be an issue. I have never tried to do it but I'm sure there is some way to tune down any kind of airgun, even a Daisy. You might  be able to remove an O-ring or something very simple to accomplish this.
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