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Author Topic: stairwell defense (science?)  (Read 7057 times)

rasdj

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stairwell defense (science?)
« on: January 29, 2008, 09:14:36 AM »

here is a link to a preview from fight science on a stairwell scenario.  what are your thoughts on the science/validity of this technique?
http://channel.nationalgeographic.com/channel/fightscience/videos_4.html

p.s how come hock, nick, etc weren't some of the experts consulted?  ;)
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I exhort you also to take part in the great combat,  which is the combat of life, and greater than every other earthly combat.
--Plato (427 BC - 347 BC)

Hock

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Re: stairwell defense (science?)
« Reply #1 on: January 29, 2008, 10:22:37 AM »

As Charlton heston once said about acting.

          "There are a million great actors. You have to be a LUCKY great actor."

The same can be said for authors and...and being selected for one of these features.
Probably the producers, often niave and uneducated on the subject, just go to magazines like Black Belt or do internet searches, for source material. Then, they look at their budget. Who is close so we don't have to fly in and house and feed? Lots of things get considered when making these shows.

But that was a cool clip and interesting to know about finger pressure.

(I have a whole sims shooting module on stairways, it is awesome to do, called "Stairway to Heaven," but it wouldn'tt qualify for this topic I guess.

Hock
« Last Edit: January 29, 2008, 10:24:25 AM by Hock »
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JimH

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Re: stairwell defense (science?)
« Reply #2 on: January 29, 2008, 02:07:35 PM »

I think this stuff is great from a scientific view point of POSSIBLE Applied Force.

The Downside is the initial attack,the attackers follow up attack when she fought back the first time and the attackers response to the female getting her arm free and applying a 3 finger choke are all fantasy and Not based on or formed around a true attack.

If I where the attacker and I got her down and she fought to get away,I would have punched/fore armed her across the face or the top of the nose and would have taken the fight out of her.

They want you to believe extend your arm up and you will be free to do as you like,apply a choke and he will do nothing but stand up,as if his free arm has suddenly been rendered useless.

Tip your head down and tighten your neck muscles,as if in a struggle and see if you can get a firm 3 finger grip on the trach.to apply pressure?
You have to stuff the fingers in and grab the trach and pull,twist or push the thumb across while the fingers pull the trach (like starting a car)

The science is not the fight,the science is the applications to dummies and the resulting force generation.
(what Commercials ran for this NG Fight science show? Krav Maga?,Krav Maga has been the commercials I have seen for the last few Fight Science shows on Fight Science Special Operations)

The first Fight Science shows were Scientific Commercials for Xtreme Martial arts.

These are High Tech Commercials with some scientific numbers gathering that mean crap all in the reality of combat.
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Ryan

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Re: stairwell defense (science?)
« Reply #3 on: January 29, 2008, 02:20:12 PM »

Amir Perets, a 4th degree BB in KM and an instructor with KMW, was one of the people featured on the show, and yes, a bunch of KM schools got together and bought commercial time during the show.  I'm not sure what Jim's point is here, other than some school owners recognized a great advertising opportunity and took advantage of it.
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"Don't hit at all if you can help it; don't hit a man if you can possibly avoid it; but if you do hit him, put him to sleep."--Theodore Roosevelt

JimH

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Re: stairwell defense (science?)
« Reply #4 on: January 29, 2008, 03:33:14 PM »

See Ryan I did not know that krav maga was featured on this show,I just saw the clip.

When you feature an art and then Run commercial air time for that art ,especially Fight science,you are leading people to believe that this SCIENCE and FIGHTING are able to allow you to get out of the situation pictured,this is not the case in the scenario depicted.

I took a guess and was Right.

Just as Fight Science Featuring the xtreme Martial arts guys was not a fluke,it was intentional.

The Fight Science Special Operations had an Israeli  soldier,who said he was a member of Sayeret 13 ,Krav Maga Instructor /Spec Ops member.
He did an exercise,heat tolerance test and a shoot scenario,then he did a front on Pistol disarm.
The Fight Science Team scewed the results to try and say the Soldier moved  his left hand from his left hip,up and across his body,hit and grabbed the weapon and disarmed the attacker before the attacker could fire and they timed the exercise at 1/12th of a second,the time it would take to press the button on a stop watch and press it again to stop it,which took 1/19th of a second.
(He was faster than the click of a button,lol)

Then they went to commercial,wow lets guess,a Krav Maga Commercial.
Do you think that the intent of the Krav Maga/Israeli soldier pistol Disarm was the lead in to the commercial?
Do you think that some one who saw the unreal time claimed by Fight Science did not tie the Visual, the Research spectacular ,to the commercial?

I think they did.

I do not think it was just a Happen stance situation of Krav Maga paying for time or paying for that portion of the research leading into their commercial.

It was the lead In to the Sales Pitch.

That is My point.

Does anyone believe the Stair well scenario as the truth of an attack met with the truth of a response?

I don't

Fight science is a commercial based around scewed numbers and research to sell a product or art.
A scientific based ,paid for ,Commercial.
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Hock

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Re: stairwell defense (science?)
« Reply #5 on: January 29, 2008, 06:36:19 PM »

Does anyone believe the Stair well scenario as the truth of an attack met with the truth of a response?

Well, I don't. I kind of glazed over the actual scenario mechanics (he probably would have fist pounded her a bit? Any number of things) and keyed in on the finger pressure test - which I can use as a trivial side point in a lecture.

I wasn't hip to the commercial aspects of this show at all, never seeing it. It sounds like a magazine operation. Buy a bunch of ads and get featured, kind of thing? We called it "checkbook journalism" in the magazine business. Sometimes true. Sometimes shaded.

Hock 
« Last Edit: January 30, 2008, 09:27:58 AM by Hock »
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rasdj

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Re: stairwell defense (science?)
« Reply #6 on: January 29, 2008, 07:34:57 PM »

i haven't seen the show just a bunch of clips and one long compilation of clips  but all of the science seems to be in the end result. e.g can there be a one punch knockout, is there any validity to dim mak/death hand touch/strike, reaction time and speed, finger pressure on windpipe, double leg take down on a drunk etc.  however, the implication, it seems to me, is that everything else is science. a local KM gym here in chicago mentioned fight science in an ad and thus i found the clip and posted it.
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I exhort you also to take part in the great combat,  which is the combat of life, and greater than every other earthly combat.
--Plato (427 BC - 347 BC)

Ryan

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Re: stairwell defense (science?)
« Reply #7 on: January 30, 2008, 08:54:36 AM »

I really don't care what anyone believes, I know the truth.  Krav Maga was not featured (it was mentioned as part of a bio, once, towards the end.)  Amir was asked to be a part of this program.  Once KMW schools were made aware of this, many schools got together and decided to buy commercial time.  Why would these schools not take advantage of such a great opportunity to reach a national audience?

Regarding the other points, the time was not to disarm, but to redirection, and the commercial was not placed afterwards, since you don't get that option (though from a business standpoint, I surely wish you did.)
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"Don't hit at all if you can help it; don't hit a man if you can possibly avoid it; but if you do hit him, put him to sleep."--Theodore Roosevelt

Hock

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Re: stairwell defense (science?)
« Reply #8 on: January 30, 2008, 09:32:42 AM »

Are we getting tired of these shows and their formats?

How many different people, man and women are we going to watch go do savate in France and have some kind of fight challenge? Has there not been 5 or 6 series now? Go to the Philippines again. Go here, go there. Ho-hum. Is it just me or we burning out on this stuff?

Frankly I have never watched a single episode through since the first series.

Hock

Dawg

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Re: stairwell defense (science?)
« Reply #9 on: January 30, 2008, 10:22:29 AM »

I have to agree with you on the "ho-hum" factor. There's also a couple of other things I don't like about these series. But, I don't think martial artists or self-defense practitioners are the primary target audience. I have several people on a regular basis ask me if I've seen this or that episode and then usually end up asking, "Do you do that kind of stuff?"
I then invite them to come on out and try my class and find out for themselves!
I think it's a useful tool to open people's eyes to the great variety of martial arts available out there and possibly motivate them to get off the couch and try something new.
I think MS is rated as the most "obese" or "unfit" state in the nation. Anything that could possibly inspire folks to get up and get moving is a good thing in my book.
Although I find the shows rather boring, I'm also a "Mythbusters" fan; go figure. Something to do with my "inner geek", I guess.
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JimH

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Re: stairwell defense (science?)
« Reply #10 on: January 30, 2008, 04:22:54 PM »

Sorry Ryan,
I wentback and looked at the show.
In the Show,Amir does his Heat Tolerance, then the shoot exercise,thet then show the upcoming portion of his gun Disarm and Say over the clip (roughly),See our Israeli special Ops soldier do a gun disarm faster than a speeding bullet,Then Low and behold it melds right into a Krav Maga Commercial.

No Krav Maga commercial at any other point in the show.

The show also used the anatomical simulation of Amir doing the disarm and the Expert says:(and they show)
He does three moves
He first moves his head
He next moves the weapon
Third he DISARMS the attacker
ALL DONE IN 12/100ths of a Second.

That to me sounds like the complete disarm,not just moving the weapon???

It will be back on Jan 30 on the National Geographic Channel and you can see and hear it all over again.
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Ryan

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Re: stairwell defense (science?)
« Reply #11 on: January 30, 2008, 06:58:03 PM »

Not that it really matters, and not that I understand your point, but I'll play along:

At about 38 minutes or so, they do a "lead in" which says, "Is this warrior faster than a speeding bullet?"  (There has still been no mention of Krav Maga AT ALL.)  The KM commercial then airs.  There is a whole other segment and several commercial breaks, then at 54 minutes there's one mention of Krav Maga as part of Amir's bio, and the disarm segment airs (KM is never mentioned in relation to the disarm.)  At 56 minutes and about 40 seconds, one of the researchers states "from the time Amir's hand went from his waist to completely moving the gun barrel out of the way, was 12/100ths of a second."  I have no idea if this is accurate or not, but this is what they concluded.  Also, they go out of their way to paint these guys as superhuman, not the common person.

By the way, If I got to make the choice, I'd have the commercial air after this segment, not before the mention of Krav Maga.
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"Don't hit at all if you can help it; don't hit a man if you can possibly avoid it; but if you do hit him, put him to sleep."--Theodore Roosevelt

JimH

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Re: stairwell defense (science?)
« Reply #12 on: January 31, 2008, 09:18:07 AM »

I guess we just disregard the 15-20 minute segment on Amir being an Israeli soldier,member of Sayeret 13 and Combat instructor doing the heat stress/shoot segment,which then led right into the clip of HIM,AMIR,doing the gun disarm demo for the upcoming specific segment (him faster than a Bullet),which then Melded Right Into the Krav Maga commercial.

The Navy SEAL Commercial was no where near the First 25 minute segment which featured the Navy SEAL guy.

What did we learn:
That a SEAL who is used to working in water can adapt to and function in the water and that an Israeli Commando can operate in the Heat.
Holy Scientific Research Batman,lol.
(Adaptation: Man has adapted to living and working conditions since his appearance in various places on this earth)

Again the point is that the Show,Fight Science ,Is a Paid for Commercial put on by National Geographics.
The scientific ? generated numbers for speed and impact they tell you mean nothing in a fight.

To show a woman applying pressure to the neck of a dummy and telling us the numbers she can generate on the computer mean squat when she tries to do that for Real,on the Street,against a Person/Man who means her harm.

To try and say that a man making contact with a dummy generates the same or MORE force impact as a full sized car hitting a wall/person at 40-50 miles per hour is complete nonsense.

To say that MMA fighters ,Tito Ortiz generates 250 pounds per square inch delivering an elbow strike to the jaw and Bas Rutten generates 350 pounds per square inch on a hook punch to the jaw means Nothing on the street and or to the general public,it is used to hype and sell an art or method of training.

It is a commercial pretending to be some form of scientific reasearch,lol.
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rasdj

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Re: stairwell defense (science?)
« Reply #13 on: January 31, 2008, 09:34:55 AM »

  At 56 minutes and about 40 seconds, one of the researchers states "from the time Amir's hand went from his waist to completely moving the gun barrel out of the way, was 12/100ths of a second."  I have no idea if this is accurate or not, but this is what they concluded. 
I believe that this is JimH's point exactly (at least the way i read it)
Quote from: JimH
The Fight Science Team scewed the results to try and say the Soldier moved  his left hand from his left hip,up and across his body,hit and grabbed the weapon and disarmed the attacker before the attacker could fire and they timed the exercise at 1/12th of a second,the time it would take to press the button on a stop watch and press it again to stop it,which took 1/19th of a second.
(He was faster than the click of a button,lol)
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I exhort you also to take part in the great combat,  which is the combat of life, and greater than every other earthly combat.
--Plato (427 BC - 347 BC)

Ryan

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Re: stairwell defense (science?)
« Reply #14 on: January 31, 2008, 09:43:37 AM »

rasdj, Jim's contention was that the timed motion was all the way to the disarm--it wasn't, it was to redirection.

Jim, again, what is your point?  Should the KM schools not have used this advertising opportunity?  Did the Navy purposefully not put their ad up against the Seal segment (what sense would that make?)?  Again, KM was mentioned ONCE in the whole hour, as part of Amir's bio, and that mention didn't come until 6 minutes left in the show. 

This is perhaps one of the most ridiculous arguments I've ever seen.  Your bias against KMW continues to blind your objectiveness.  Let me know the next time Moni has an article in BB and no advertisement.
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"Don't hit at all if you can help it; don't hit a man if you can possibly avoid it; but if you do hit him, put him to sleep."--Theodore Roosevelt

Dawg

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Re: stairwell defense (science?)
« Reply #15 on: January 31, 2008, 12:24:17 PM »

I watched both the MMA and the Special Ops episodes back to back the other night. I found them both to be interesting and entertaining; much better than "Fight Quest" or "Human Weapon", anyway.
But, here are some tests I'd like to see them do:
1) Put a motorcycle helmet on one of those dummies and determine the force required to break the helmet and crush the skull. Uncle Nicky would perform the demonstration.
2) Have Arnold, the Navy SEAL and the Israeli fella attempt obstacle course after being struck by lightening.
3) Attach ears to dummy, and measure amount of force necessary to rip them from the head. Hock will demonstrate; can use Arnold for the dummy to lower production costs (not very scientific, but just think of the entertainment value!).
4) Hold a dance marathon with any MMA guy, any SPEC OPS guy and Rawhide. Beats "Dancing with the Stars" any day!
Give me some episodes like that and I might even pay attention to the commercials!
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JimH

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Re: stairwell defense (science?)
« Reply #16 on: January 31, 2008, 03:14:40 PM »

Ryan,you keep asking what is my point?

Again my point even before you posted was that Fight Science is an Ad ,period.
Since the First one which featured the Hyped up Xreme Martial arts.

I asked who ran the Ads for the stair well defense?
I asked if it was Krav Maga as I had seen the show which had them putting up a commercial,the Spec ops show I mentioned.

You then posted about Amir.

You then made it that what I said was in error,which it was not.
You said that the order of the commercial did not follow the clip,(not the segment you keep on about) but it did.
I corrected your misinformation as it related to what I said.

Then I corrected again about when and what was said by the narator in regard to the Complete Disarm.

Other than that I could care less about Krav Maga and Amir as it and he performed on the show.
(as a member of the Spec Ops community he has my respect)

My point ,if you get past your hang up with the words Krav Maga when ever they are written you will see that I said that it,Fight Science, is a Commercial not just for Krav maga,but the Navy SEALS,MMA,Street Self Defense,Xtreme Martial arts,on and on.

It is a Commercial based around so called scientific experimentations that AGAIN mean nothing.

I don't have a Problem with Krav Maga the art.
I do not like their sales Hype period.

I do not represent Moni nor Combat Krav Maga and I could care less about his ads.
If he and his art were featured on Fight Science and they made extreme claims of him doing a gun disarm faster than a speeding bullet I would have a problem with it.

The show is geared for the uninformed and they believe the BS of strike power and science.

If the power generated were constant and the point of contact constant and knock outs or what ever were always replicable then it would mean something but nothing is constant and when we put two people or more in conflict it just magnifies Nothing is constant.


I watched the first show,when they HYPED Xtreme martial arts.
I watched the second in which they show cased various arts.
I watched the one with the Breakers and I watched the MMA/Spec Ops shows.
I watch for entertainment,not for truth in Self Defense nor for Truth in scientific Data.

Others though believe what they see and hear.

You are the one carrying on about what is my point and my hang up about Krav Maga.

Show me in any of my posts on this thread where I ripped into the technique of the Gun Disarm or Krav Maga ?

I am sure Amir did not say he was faster than a speeding bullet,the producers added that as a hook.
If the Krav Maga people who bought the Ad got it placed right Good luck to them.

Again,The show Is a COMMERCIAL for the arts they show,(all the arts they show),period.

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Bryant

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Re: stairwell defense (science?)
« Reply #17 on: February 01, 2008, 04:04:26 PM »

David James (vee-Arnis-Jitsu)
does some interesting stairwell self defense scenarios on his tapes
He does a few with the assailant coming down the steps towards you
and a few with the assailant coming up the steps towards you
seemed very practical (lots of strikes and jujitsu/aikido style holds)
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Wardog

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Re: stairwell defense (science?)
« Reply #18 on: February 01, 2008, 10:59:41 PM »

 The minute they start talking ninjas and Dim Mak they have lost me. They did and they did.
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Hock

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Re: stairwell defense (science?)
« Reply #19 on: November 07, 2011, 11:41:03 PM »

...and the show is officially off the air?

Hock
 

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