Important Links

Hock's Blog

Hock's Downloads

CQC-Facebook

Hock's Facebook

Hock's Seminars

Hock's Shopsite

Hock's Web Page


New Products

Combat Kicks VID

Critical Contact VID

Death Grip of Knife VID

Dominant/Counter VID

First Contact VID

Impact Weapons Book

Knife Book

The Other Hand VID


Lauric Enterprises, Inc.
1314 W. McDermott
Ste 106-811
Allen, TX 75013
972-390-1777

 

 

 


W. Hock Hochheim's

           Combat Centric

Talk Forum for Military, Police, Martial Artists and Aware Citizenry



Hock Hochheim's Combat Talk Forum

  • January 21, 2018, 02:32:58 PM
  • Welcome, Guest
Please login or register.

Login with username, password and session length

Author Topic: Riot and my baton fails to open.  (Read 15487 times)

edude69

  • Level 2
  • ***
  • Posts: 97
Riot and my baton fails to open.
« on: February 07, 2008, 11:20:17 PM »

   Our second level IV yard of the day was going in as usual.  I work as the Recreation Officer and was checking in the athletic equipment.  Then on the far side of the yard I see something I could only describe as an explosion of violence.  Riots are always very interesting.  From the epicenter or initial contact, it moves out in a wave.  Kind of like when you slow down a video of an bomb going off.  The waves ripple outward and consume everything in it's path.
   I secure my equipment locker and run out the gym door toward the disturbance.  As I'm running I pull my Monadnock auto-lock expandable baton out and give it a flick to open it.  It doesn't open, so I'm repeatedly snapping the damn thing to open it, cursing the whole time.  It still would not open.  It's funny how time slows to a crawl when something like that happens.  I'm still running and now pulling on the tip and the handle to get it open.  Not happening, it's stuck solid.  By this time I'm up to the incident, CS grenades are going off around me and inmates are still up and fighting.  I put the baton back in it's holster and pull out my OC spray.  I hose down one guy and he hits the deck.  This stuff is 2,000,000 scoville units.  I sprayed another guy and either a gust of wind kicked up or another CS grenade went off in front of me.  Anyway, the spray blew back right in my face.  That stuff is no joke.  I am now almost completely blind in the middle of a damn riot.  Fortunately, the code 2 response team was running up just in the nick of time.  I couldn't see him, but by his voice I could tell which Sgt. it was.  I tell him I can't see and step behind the line of officers.  Then the code 3 teams from other facilities start pouring into the yard.  By this time all the inmates are down and being restrained.  He tells me to go decontaminate.  So I go wash this stuff off my face.  I come back and start to ID inmates and look for weapons. 
  I get a chance a little later when things have calmed down to pull my baton out and see what the hell was up with it.  I snap, tug and pull and it still isn't opening.  I decide the hell with it!  It's already broke so I smack it on the concrete a few times.  I'm finally barely able to get it open and a big cloud of orange dust comes out with it.  The whole shaft was solidly rusted shut.  I've never ever had one problem with a baton not opening.  Of all the times for one to fail is when I needed it the most.  Thank you Mr. Murphy.  Lesson learned, always check all your gear every f*ckin day!
« Last Edit: February 21, 2008, 08:24:51 PM by edude69 »
Logged
We sleep safe in our beds because rough men stand ready in the night to visit violence on those who would do us harm. 

George Orwell

whitewolf

  • Level 4
  • *****
  • Posts: 4702
Re: Riot and my baton fails to open.
« Reply #1 on: February 08, 2008, 01:43:17 AM »

I am glad you came through that riot unhurt-that baton you spoke of-does it  have a lock on  it? how do you think it rusted ? Water get in it ? I carry a collapsable baton that works by gravity-each time i carry it i take the top rod and insure that it sticks out about a 1/8th of inch-when i put it in the small of  my back handle is  down-i am pretty good at taking it out after a lot of practise and as it is whpped around the bars just fly out-i also sanded each bar and they are slippery which is a plus-as i can not carry a pistol in this country i rely on the baton if needed-in my vehicle i carry a collapsable tire iron without the lug nut part on it-it has sort of a hook on the end that the lug fit on-it is a wicked weapon if needed-luckly i  have  not needed to use either one so  far-but i like to be prepared-each one of us on  patrol carries some sort of protective expediant weapon -just in case-best weapon we have is being alert and if something looks or feels wrong it probably is and we adjust..a few years ago a american contractor was followed in his car by 3 locals-they cut him off and drug him out of the car and beat him up-that is not hapening to el  lobo  blanco (whitewolfie)-stay safe and check the baton each time-lwt me  know about the question i asked you-semper fi
Logged

Hock

  • Administrator
  • Level 4
  • *****
  • Posts: 6372
    • www.HocksCQC.com
Re: Riot and my baton fails to open.
« Reply #2 on: February 08, 2008, 06:42:03 AM »

The entire Monodnok company, to include training progarms as rusty, dusty names of the past compared to the gear being made now.

When i teaching the Marines regularly before 9-11, I learned they used monodnoks and in the course of my classes I saw hundreds and hundreds of Marines with monodnok expandables. When we did real contact training? (something never done, by the way) quite a number would go down. Mechanisms broke, bends, dents, etc.

I have never been impressed with anything monodnok has ever made or taught.

They are just an old name that old-timers in admin keep going back for gear and re-certification.

Hock
« Last Edit: March 29, 2014, 07:31:43 PM by Hock »
Logged

whitewolf

  • Level 4
  • *****
  • Posts: 4702
Re: Riot and my baton fails to open.
« Reply #3 on: February 08, 2008, 11:03:18 AM »

Hock-thanks for the info-hope that the Marines are using up to   date equipment now-take care-whitewolf
Logged

Milldog1776

  • Guest
Re: Riot and my baton fails to open.
« Reply #4 on: February 08, 2008, 02:06:03 PM »

When edude was telling us this last night at class, all that was running through my head was anger at the systems. Angry because once again the system fails to supply personel with proper equipment. Angry because once again someone is hired and in charge of equipment, yet lack the initiative or drive to maintain it. Angry because I know that no matter how many lives bullshit like this happens...nothing ever changes.

It really is a 5 Ape world!
Logged

edude69

  • Level 2
  • ***
  • Posts: 97
Re: Riot and my baton fails to open.
« Reply #5 on: February 08, 2008, 04:05:21 PM »

   Yes, it does have an auto-lock feature.  Generally, I like it.  It stays open when you snap it and it's very easy to close.  This is the first time I've ever had a problem with one.  Judging by the amount of rust on it, I believe something caustic had to have gotten on it somehow.   We carry them in the rain all the time and I've never seen it happen before.  About the only major problem I've seen with that particular baton is that the grip can become very slippery.  Especially, when in the middle of a situation and the palms are sweaty.  I've seen some fly during training.  We've had incidents where OC spray was used and sometimes staff get exposed, as in my case.  Sh*t happens!  The OC is oily and slippery.  Less than six months ago we had some staff get attacked by a group of blacks and get exposed to the OC.  More than one baton hit the ground.  Fortunately, no inmates grabbed them and got busy.  I think that mini-14 was the only thing stopping them.  Years back there was a cop who was in a dining hall when it went off.  Back then we used the PR-24.  There were only four cops in there when they were jumped by a bunch of Surenos.  His baton popped out on the floor and an inmate beat the sh*t out of him with it.  The officer in the gun tower said it was like piranha's on a piece of meat.  He couldn't get a shot off and had to watch his partner almost get killed.  He felt really bad about it for a long time.  That happened during the day on 2nd watch.  I came in on 3rd watch and the first thing I see when I walk through the yard door is a trail of blood going from the infirmary all the way to the dining room.  Thats about 100+ yards and a lot of blood.  He was medically retired.
   Our department does use the Monadonok training curriculum.  Some of it is okay.  A lot of it is garbage such as the overhead block.  I spoke with Hock about it at the Sacramento seminar.  Like he said, using that block will send you straight to the bone doctor.  Monadonok has a link to their training group, I forget their name.  The group does have a copy of the baton training manual available to download as a pdf file.  I gave a copy to Keith FYI. 
   As far as the administration is concerned, yes they are hosed up for the most part.  Most of the equipment is kept in facility control.  The control cop is usually very busy all day dealing traffic and issuing gear, so I can't lay blame there.  We have one Amory Sgt and one officer for the entire institution.  There is no way they can keep up with all that equipment.  One problem is the lack of staff too properly deal with this sort of thing.  There is talk about the Governator cutting officer positions.  You think it's bad now?
   Ultimately, The responsibility of my baton failing falls on my shoulders.  If I had properly checked, I would have known it was not functional.  It is now out of service awaiting the armory Sgt. to pick it up.  Like I said lesson learned.  I will check all my equipment everyday.  Being in a hurry or getting complacent can get you in trouble.  I got lucky!
« Last Edit: June 07, 2008, 09:53:47 PM by edude69 »
Logged
We sleep safe in our beds because rough men stand ready in the night to visit violence on those who would do us harm. 

George Orwell

whitewolf

  • Level 4
  • *****
  • Posts: 4702
Re: Riot and my baton fails to open.
« Reply #6 on: February 09, 2008, 02:46:26 AM »

edude69-dont feel   bad-you are still ok so  that is all that  counts-whitewolf
Logged

WTAC

  • Aaron Warren
  • Level 2
  • ***
  • Posts: 84
    • WTAC Training
Re: Riot and my baton fails to open.
« Reply #7 on: February 14, 2008, 09:50:27 PM »

You can teach ASP's expandable tactical baton course with the Monadonock expandable straight baton. Consulate a certified ASP instructor in your area. I prefer ASP's course over Monadonocks.

   Yes, it does have an auto-lock feature.  Generally, I like it.  It stays open when you snap it and it's very easy to close.  This is the first time I've ever had a problem with one.  Judging by the amount of rust on it, I believe something caustic had to have gotten on it somehow.   We carry them in the rain all the time and I've never seen it happen before.  About the only major problem I've seen with that particular baton is that the grip can become very slippery.  Especially, when in the middle of a situation and the palms are sweaty.  I've seen some fly during training.  We've incidents where OC spray was used and sometimes staff get exposed, as in my case.  Sh*t happens!  The OC is oily and slippery.  Less than six months ago we had some staff get attacked by a group of blacks and get exposed to the OC.  More than one baton hit the ground.  Fortunately no inmates grabbed them and got busy.  I think that mini-14 was the only thing stopping them.  Years back there was a cop who was in a dining hall when it went off.  Back then we used the PR-24.  There were only four cops in there when they were jumped by a bunch of Surenos.  His baton popped out on the floor and an inmate beat the sh*t out of him with it.  The officer in the gun tower said it was like piranha's on a piece of meat.  He couldn't get a shot off and had to watch his partner almost get killed.  He felt really bad about it for a long time.  That happened on 2nd watch.  I came in on 3rd watch and the first thing I see when I walk through the yard door is a trail of blood going from the infirmary all the way to the block.  Thats about 100+ yards and a lot of blood.  He was medically retired.
   Our department does use the Monadonok training curriculum.  Some of it is okay.  A lot of it is garbage such as the overhead block.  I spoke with Hock about it at the Sacramento seminar.  Like he said, using that block will send you straight to the bone doctor.  Monadonok has a link to their training group, I forget their name.  The group does have a copy of the baton training manual available to download as a pdf file.  I gave a copy to Keith FYI. 
   As far as the administration is concerned, yes they are hosed up for the most part.  Most of the equipment is kept in facility control.  The control cop is usually very busy all day dealing traffic and issuing gear, so I can't lay blame there.  We have one Amory Sgt and one officer for the entire institution.  There is no way they can keep up with all that equipment.  One problem is the lack of staff too properly deal with this sort of thing.  There is talk about the Governator cutting officer positions.  You think it's bad now?
   Ultimately, The responsibility of my baton failing falls on my shoulders.  If I had properly checked, I would known it was not functional.  It is now out of service awaiting the armory Sgt. to pick it up.  Like I said lesson learned.  I will check all my equipment everyday.  Being in a hurry or getting complacent can get you in trouble.  I got lucky!
Logged

edude69

  • Level 2
  • ***
  • Posts: 97
Re: Riot and my baton fails to open.
« Reply #8 on: February 15, 2008, 10:20:24 PM »

A few years back I was PTMing on the SERT team.  The Team was using the ASP at that time.  I did go through the first level training for it.  This was before our front line Officers had the expandable batons.  I do like the ASP program a bit better than Monadonok's.  It seems to be more functional.  I think the CQC material is superior to anything else I've seen.  It's probably best to shell out for my own training.  Realistically, I don't see my department switching any time soon.   
Logged
We sleep safe in our beds because rough men stand ready in the night to visit violence on those who would do us harm. 

George Orwell

Blade

  • Level 1
  • **
  • Posts: 29
Re: Riot and my baton fails to open.
« Reply #9 on: February 16, 2008, 06:48:49 AM »

Hi,

i think gel spray is better than gas spray. If you don't check your gear then its not so important from which company your expandable stick is.In Germany some police officers use the BONOWI expandable stick. Its possible to have difficulty to open or to close expandable sticks even if you train a lot. I think to get prepared and trained what to do after mentioned problems will help too.
« Last Edit: February 18, 2008, 04:44:59 AM by Blade »
Logged

WTAC

  • Aaron Warren
  • Level 2
  • ***
  • Posts: 84
    • WTAC Training
Re: Riot and my baton fails to open.
« Reply #10 on: February 20, 2008, 12:40:19 PM »

For Law Enforcement itís VERY important who makes your equipment. Not only from a quality stand point but also a liability one. No impact weapon company has the legal resources that ASP has available to properly certified users. Also buy gel I'm assuming you mean pepper foam spray? If so itís not a good option in correctional environments it turns cement and grass into ice like slippery surfaces.

Hi,

i think gel spray is better than gas spray. If you don't check your gear then its not so important from which company your expandable stick is.In Germany some police officers use the BONOWI expandable stick. Its possible to have difficulty to open or to close expandable sticks even if you train a lot. I think to get prepared and trained what to do after mentioned problems will help too.
Logged

Blade

  • Level 1
  • **
  • Posts: 29
Re: Riot and my baton fails to open.
« Reply #11 on: February 22, 2008, 06:45:11 AM »

Yes WTAC...there are pepper foam...but what i mean is pepper gel!Its like for shaving... you have foam and you have gel to shave :-) !! So FOAM is not GEL.
Logged

edude69

  • Level 2
  • ***
  • Posts: 97
Re: Riot and my baton fails to open.
« Reply #12 on: February 28, 2008, 06:16:55 PM »

Even the regular spray can be very slippery.  There has been more than one occasion were I've almost busted my rear going into an area that had spray on it.  Another problem with the spray is in many incidents the officers end up getting exposed as well.  I think the gel or foam spray might reduce the residual effect. 
Logged
We sleep safe in our beds because rough men stand ready in the night to visit violence on those who would do us harm. 

George Orwell

Trainer

  • Guest
Re: Riot and my baton fails to open.
« Reply #13 on: February 28, 2008, 07:08:01 PM »

I have trained, use and carried PR24, ASP and Autolock. The Public Relations24 is to clunky for me, I have had frictions locks that couldnt maintain friction and autolocks that dont automaticly lock. This is the rule....if its man made it WILL LET YOU DOWN at some point.

Here in Canada at least in Ontario, there is NOT ONE service that an off the shelf baton program, they have taken elements of what they fell is best and create there own system. I have found that monadnock refuses to admit the ground exists, that shit heads come in twos and that stick cant beat a knife.

Logged

Trainer

  • Guest
Re: Riot and my baton fails to open.
« Reply #14 on: February 29, 2008, 06:24:20 AM »

Tru Dat!


I guess that is why so many USA departments are going back to the straight, wooden, night stick.

Hock
Logged

arnold

  • the king of cool
  • Level 4
  • *****
  • Posts: 3189
  • oh that will get you killed
Re: Riot and my baton fails to open.
« Reply #15 on: March 03, 2008, 01:30:40 PM »

Must be why my dad's original issue, 1956 oak nightstick with lead shot in the striking end sits by the front door at his home.
Logged
I leave you idiots alone for 5 minutes and I come back and you're all dancing around like a bunch of Kansas City faggots
you're all a bunch of slack jawed faggots around here, this stuff will make you a sexual tyrannosaurus, just like me!

edude69

  • Level 2
  • ***
  • Posts: 97
Re: Riot and my baton fails to open.
« Reply #16 on: March 13, 2008, 05:32:45 PM »

I'm getting my gear from control the other day and I check my baton before going on the yard.  And guess what?  Go ahead, you'll never guess.  I flick it and it doesn't open.  I pull on it and it still doesn't open.  I push the button and yank on it and it finally comes half open.  It then gets stuck in that position.  It wont open or close at this point.  I look at it and realize it is the same baton from the riot.  Yes, the one that was supposedly set aside for the armory Sgt. to pick up.  Some numb nut put it back into use.  The good thing is that it is now solidly stuck half open.  I'm hoping that may be an indication for the next guy that maybe this thing is not functioning properly.  Like I said, I'm hoping.  The guy in the both wasn't the regular, but said he would bag it and mark it.  I'll definitely check back on it.  I don't want the same thing happening to anyone else.  The good news is, I'm checking my equipment everyday and I caught it before hand.
Logged
We sleep safe in our beds because rough men stand ready in the night to visit violence on those who would do us harm. 

George Orwell

WTAC

  • Aaron Warren
  • Level 2
  • ***
  • Posts: 84
    • WTAC Training
Re: Riot and my baton fails to open.
« Reply #17 on: March 13, 2008, 06:45:05 PM »

That really sucks. What state do you work in? Here in California CDC is very good about equipment from all the CO's I've talked to. Work on your closed mode strikes just in case.
Stay safe
Aaron

I'm getting my gear from control the other day and I check my baton before going on the yard.  And guess what?  Go ahead, you'll never guess.  I flick it and it doesn't open.  I pull on it and it still doesn't open.  I push the button and yank on it and it finally comes half open.  It then gets stuck in that position.  It wont open or close at this point.  I look at it and realize it is the same baton from the riot.  Yes, the one that was supposedly set aside for the armory Sgt. to pick up.  Some numb nut put it back into use.  The good thing is that it is now solidly stuck half open.  I'm hoping that may be an indication for the next guy that maybe this thing is not functioning properly.  Like I said, I'm hoping.  The guy in the both wasn't the regular, but said he would bag it and mark it.  I'll definitely check back on it.  I don't want the same thing happening to anyone else.  The good news is, I'm checking my equipment everyday and I caught it before hand.
Logged

michael

  • Level 3
  • ****
  • Posts: 221
Re: Riot and my baton fails to open.
« Reply #18 on: March 13, 2008, 08:24:28 PM »

That sucks to here about the failure of the Monadnock, but I'm not really surprised. When I went through the ASP instructor's school, they actually talked about how the autolock had so many parts and ball bearings that it sometimes would fall apart in many pieces. I've been through the Monadnock course as well, and much prefer what ASP offers. ASP's philosophy is that it is a stick, and it is made to hit people with, not to do joint locks, etc. I like that philosophy, and I like how they stand behind their products. They also gave us all kinds of free stuff, so maybe I'm a little biased. ;D
Logged
**To be a warrior is not a simple matter of wishing to be one. It is rather an endless struggle that will go on to the very last moment of our lives. Nobody is born a warrior, in exactly the same way that nobody is born an average man. We make ourselves into one or the other.** Carlos Castaneda

edude69

  • Level 2
  • ***
  • Posts: 97
Re: Riot and my baton fails to open.
« Reply #19 on: September 14, 2008, 06:17:06 PM »

Since then, I've found two other batons that were heavily rusted.  I just scrubbed and oiled them myself.  I didn't want them getting put back into circulation like the other one. 
Logged
We sleep safe in our beds because rough men stand ready in the night to visit violence on those who would do us harm. 

George Orwell

whitewolf

  • Level 4
  • *****
  • Posts: 4702
Re: Riot and my baton fails to open.
« Reply #20 on: September 14, 2008, 08:52:02 PM »

edude-can you purchase your own and carry it? WW
Logged

edude69

  • Level 2
  • ***
  • Posts: 97
Re: Riot and my baton fails to open.
« Reply #21 on: September 16, 2008, 06:49:33 PM »

As far as I know, you must use departmental issued weapons.
Logged
We sleep safe in our beds because rough men stand ready in the night to visit violence on those who would do us harm. 

George Orwell

whitewolf

  • Level 4
  • *****
  • Posts: 4702
Re: Riot and my baton fails to open.
« Reply #22 on: September 17, 2008, 03:00:19 AM »

best recourse is to  check your equipment out when you draw it-ww
Logged

edude69

  • Level 2
  • ***
  • Posts: 97
Re: Riot and my baton fails to open.
« Reply #23 on: September 18, 2008, 04:51:09 PM »

I do it religiously now. 
Logged
We sleep safe in our beds because rough men stand ready in the night to visit violence on those who would do us harm. 

George Orwell

whitewolf

  • Level 4
  • *****
  • Posts: 4702
Re: Riot and my baton fails to open.
« Reply #24 on: September 18, 2008, 11:44:21 PM »

I wouldnt wory about itany  more as you are doing the right thing now-if you dont get in trouble I would mention it to your union rep (if u got one)-ww
Logged

edude69

  • Level 2
  • ***
  • Posts: 97
Re: Riot and my baton fails to open.
« Reply #25 on: September 21, 2008, 05:02:26 PM »

That is a good idea.  I think I will do that.  Thanks.
Logged
We sleep safe in our beds because rough men stand ready in the night to visit violence on those who would do us harm. 

George Orwell

Professor

  • In your house drinking your coffee
  • Level 4
  • *****
  • Posts: 1827
  • The Warlord
Re: Riot and my baton fails to open.
« Reply #26 on: October 11, 2008, 10:52:12 AM »

  About the only major problem I've seen with that particular baton is that the grip can become very slippery.  Especially, when in the middle of a situation and the palms are sweaty.  I've seen some fly during training.  We've had incidents where OC spray was used and sometimes staff get exposed, as in my case.  Sh*t happens!  The OC is oily and slippery.  Less than six months ago we had some staff get attacked by a group of blacks and get exposed to the OC.  More than one baton hit the ground. 

Get a hockey player to use some black cloth tape and put a lump on the end of your baton.   Does a hell of a job to keep your grip.
Logged
  'Advanced' is being able to do the basics, despite what else is happening. 

Our Country won't go on forever, if we stay soft as we are now. There won't be any AMERICA because some foreign soldiery will invade us and take our women and breed a hardier race!"  --- Chesty Puller, USMC

edude69

  • Level 2
  • ***
  • Posts: 97
Re: Riot and my baton fails to open.
« Reply #27 on: October 12, 2008, 05:05:40 PM »

That is a good idea.  However, I'm not guaranteed to get the same equipment everyday.  I like the grip on the ASP better.  It has a foam type grip that doesn't get slippery. 
Logged
We sleep safe in our beds because rough men stand ready in the night to visit violence on those who would do us harm. 

George Orwell
 

Download