Lt Col Grossman

[JKDish]

I figured this would be the best place to put this post. Seeing as how most of you fellas is military and know about Lt Col David Grossman. What is your opinion of the man and his material

?

Have any of yu read "On Killing" "On Combat", listened to The Bullet Proof Mind?

[Hock]

It always a good idea to search on a person, term or idea before typing something "in these here" parts...

But here is:
http://hockscombatforum.com/index.php/topic,973.0.html

http://hockscombatforum.com/index.php/topic,3930.0.html

http://hockscombatforum.com/index.php/topic,4628.0.html

My quick review of the Grossman books (scroll down)
http://www.hockscqc.com/bookclub/hockshowlingcommando.htm

How's that for starters?

Hock

[JKDish]

LOL, Well Hock, I did figure that there had been some previous discussion about Dave. But I just wanted what people thought of his work in a few words. I did manage to read all of the posts and your assesment of On Killing in your Holwin Commandos Book Club Sponsored By Oprah Winfrey And Her Freinds On The View....would you mind elaborating on what Dave said specifically that sounded smarmy? Not that that is so wrong, just that my main complaint was he seemed a bit ..well...too leftist. Sort of indicating that self-defense with firearms is only the right of soldiers and LEOs. Then again, he is a freind of DeBecker's.

[Hock]

I don't think the View has a book club? If they did Grossman would never be mentioned in one.

Read Grossman's second book. (There's a short answer for you) See the endless Smarmy remarks like -

"While staring into the deep blue eyes of Katie Curic early one morning while appearing in the Today Show, I brought up the subject of ....."

These little, styled remarks go on and on. He might be leftest, but a lot of his conclusions and predictions have lots of problems among many regarded experts.

His general, survival tips to the police are nothing new.
His affiliation with the dated, flat Bruce Siddle of the vanishing PPCT is another example of a wrong choice at the wrong time.

Hock




 

[noload]

Not that that is so wrong, just that my main complaint was he seemed a bit ..well...too leftist.

I wouldn't care if Grossman was a leftist, I just don't believe most of what he says because his scholarship leaves a lot to be desired. On Killing is a must read book if for no other reason that so many quote it, but it's also a book where a person has to verify each thing Grossman says.

One more link on some of Grossman's figures that he uses as a foundation for his ideas.
http://hockscombatforum.com/index.php/topic,4235.0.html


Hock,
About when did you write your review of Grossman's book?

[Hock]

The little one over on the Howling page? That one, just a few months ago. I am trying to catch up with old books on that page.

But, somewhere around here, years back, I wrote an extensive review of the On Combat book which I really poured over. Made lots of specific comments.

Hock

[Benjamin Liu]

From what I've read here and on other forums regarding Grossman, some of his big ideas are that most people won't shoot at another human and to condition them to do so they should use realistic targets.  In looking up "On Killing" it was written in 1995, and I read the same things in the book "Survival Retreat" by Ragnar Benson, and I bought it in 1989 so I assume it was written sometime earlier.  Whether these ideas are true or not, they've been discussed earlier.

[Hock]

I was in the US ARmy in the 1970s. We first shot at round bulls-eye targets to zero in and familiarize ourselves with weapons. Next, we shot at human shaped targets, (dressed in Asian, VC and NVA uniforms) all in various environments. It was obvious why.

I think in the 1990s Grossman was just reporting the historical transition from bulls-eye to human shape training. Only the most naive police officer and citizen (note that he is not a superstar in military circles) would not know of this common sense, transition and the ideas behind it. He repeated general needs for the how and why of teaching people to kill the enemy. Some citizens are reluctant to hunt animals, least of all kill humans. They need training to do this (and what is new and ground-breaking here?) This info is in any military library for decades.

I think in the late 1990s and early 2000s he had a following amongst non-military-experienced, and somewhat, un-educated police officers. 

He was, in the 1990s and still is, a big yawn to me. But the 1990s book chronicled a killing history in a synopsis and therefore is important to own and read and have a working knowledge of.

(SURELY by now, he must have eliminated all that Bruce Siddle heart rate studies in his dinner-speeches that have been disproven and sadly - chronicled for all time in the newer On Combat book - which futher misleads new and naive readers with false information)

Hock

[JKDish]

I heard Sanford Strong is pretty good.

[VicMackey]

I got his "Strong on Defense" book, which is part of my collection of self-defense books. He uses a more pragmatic/pro-active approach. I also have Col. Grossman's book on "Killing". However, I disagree on his synopsis that humans are not inclined to fight back. We still have inbred instincts that date back to the stone age. It's just a matter of harnessing them or pushing one's buttons.

[Kentbob]

Wait..."BulletProof Mind"?  Is this where the Army got their idea for the "Steel your BattleMind" mental preparation crap?  I swear the video I had to watch mentioned something like bullet proof mind or something.  Ugh.  It was like a 45 minute video of some NCO talking about the rigors of combat, but not really saying anything useful.  45 minutes of my life I can never get back.


Kent

[arnold]

Your dancing with Rawhide took us all back in time. That should more than cover the 45 minutes you lost