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Author Topic: Special Operations Martial Arts  (Read 33699 times)

Bryan Lee

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Special Operations Martial Arts
« on: March 26, 2008, 10:49:28 AM »



  Warning, this is going to get deep! There is not really any good place to start this as its a very broad subject matter filled with truth and deception. First thing, this is a Army matter but it will have to be hashed out here in public, private forums and emails will no longer cut it as the matter has been taken to far already.

 

  Let me begin with a few exhibits as follow, Yes, This is from Black Belt Magazine.


















 
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Bryan Lee

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Re: Special Operations Martial Arts
« Reply #1 on: March 26, 2008, 10:56:19 AM »



  The magazine article was pretty self explanatory. That information led to these two documents being produced, these documents are valid. This is in no way an attack on Blaise Loong but but one cannot sort through this subject matter without including him as he is a central character. I have defended him and these documents in the past and I will continue to do so as long as they remain relevant.




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theardri

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Re: Special Operations Martial Arts
« Reply #2 on: March 26, 2008, 11:10:34 AM »

Ok you defend Blaise, by extension does this include Webb? Just curious, as we all know how unpopular he is with the NJ set ("Fabio" they call him...). I've been to a seminar of his, and unlike Jordan who liked to use me as a demo dummy (grrr damn him ;) ) I did not come out of it wimpering (I learned a lot from both).

I own some of Blaise's DVDs, and actually like them.
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Bryan Lee

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Re: Special Operations Martial Arts
« Reply #3 on: March 26, 2008, 11:59:04 AM »




  So where is this going? That is a damn good question! While it is a fact that in the mid eighties James Webb was a CW2 and that he did sign the second document presented which authorized Blaise Loong to qualify Instructors in Special Forces Combatives the rest of the story is not as clear.

  I like to keep up with what goes on in my own backyard. for the last 6 years that backyard has been Thailand, I have not left Southeast Asia since I came here from Japan Oct/Nov 2002. I have been involved with knives and military subject matter my entire life so getting my first computer in 2003 led me into the Online Combatives Community. I have been fortunate to make some good friends via the net, but I have also encountered some nut cases and other less desirables. Stating the obvious I have a pretty good idea about what goes on around Thailand with both the U.S. Military and with civilians who are involved with any type of Military Training. When Glen Zwiers the Australian representative showed up here in Phuket I was given a first hand report of the class and wish I would have attended it. Some may remember and Hock can confirm this, I was only interested in meeting Hock and the knife class, Hock could not make it, so I didn't go either.

   This brings us back to the matter at hand, in January of 2008 James Webb put on another class here in Thailand that has brought up many questions. I have sent him numerous e-mails to which he never responded to any of them. To be fair, one of his representatives did email me back and so did Geoff Tank Todd,  but none of my original questions have ever been answered, if anything more questions have come to mind.

   While I'm not a linage guy and I can take from any source I do relate to linages and when people use linage to verify themselves as instructors and subject matter experts they should be comfortable in explaining exactly how they got from point A to point B. As much as I could I have avoided having my picture taken over the years but others seem to be just the opposite of this. It seems they are similar to Forrest Gump in they have their picture taken with everyone and anyone with a name then post it all over the place as some fashion of evidence that they are who they say they are because they have a picture. In the case of Geoff Tank Todd it is taken to the extreme, he has thrown around more names and presented more pictures than any single Martial Artist I'm aware of. I have no way to validate or invalidate his claims but it is a fact he was never in the military, I have no idea why he was not. In fact I was under the impression from his websites that he was Kiwi Special Forces. When I looked further into the matter the only thing I could find was a reference to him being issued some kind of document from guess who? none other than James Webb. The document which I have never seen nor has anyone else would have been issued by James Webb here in Thailand but unlike the document issued to Blaise Loong would not be a Military Document or Diploma as nobody but Active Duty are authorized to produce such documents.

   In fact the whole Special Forces Combatives has now come into question. The first question would be exactly what is Special Forces Combatives?


http://books.google.co.th/books?id=WywWS0aNpT8C&pg=PA18&lpg=PA18&dq=special+forces+combatives&source=web&ots=UFN0Big79D&sig=__MpmcMSGbMEDSfD5dqjLu6DMX8&hl=en#PPA12,M1
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theardri

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Re: Special Operations Martial Arts
« Reply #4 on: March 26, 2008, 12:08:23 PM »

You are aware James Webb is rather ill at the moment right and has been for at leat a year and half?
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theardri

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Re: Special Operations Martial Arts
« Reply #5 on: March 26, 2008, 12:22:18 PM »

Oh and for the record read the site (http://www.closecombatinstructors.com/tank-todd.htm)

"His school has been operating for over seventy-five years and he is currently an Army Special Forces CQB Master Chief Instructor."

Given that Cestari, the Gracies, and several others can make this claim too, why do you assume he IS special forces? I've seen the official government certificates at the gym (no I did not scan them) and they are legit, the Kiwi government takes a dim view of forgery!

So why are you on this rant? Is this a comment on Geoff, James? You pumping Blaize (who has been savaged by the wolfpac too)? Is this just you thinking out loud?

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theardri

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Re: Special Operations Martial Arts
« Reply #6 on: March 26, 2008, 01:34:54 PM »

Hock we mentioned who the Wolfpac dislikes and went from there D'OH

Oh and as for viking martial arts .... I'd rather have Blaise than Stav!
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JimH

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Re: Special Operations Martial Arts
« Reply #7 on: March 26, 2008, 02:24:54 PM »

This segment and the segment on Cestari seem to be Flame works to attack and draw people to come here and feud  because others cannot post on those sites.

The information on the Cestari section and this section have nothing to do with any converstaions going on here,both are attacks and draws.

The Two Certificates with 1st SFG ABN are just that 1st SFG issued certificates,not Special Forces across the board.

CWO Webb most likely had his friend come in and instruct members of the 1st SFG and for that this person,Mr Loong, got a Thank You/appreciation Letter and a Letter from CWO Webb Giving him cross trainer Kudos.

We Do not even know who was trained,was it SF Team Memebers or SF support members?(cooks and truck drivers)

Special Forces members are trained in H2H when assigned to SFQC qualifications course,members are ACTIVE military with the end result to be assigned to a Special Forces Group/Spec Ops group if not Army and hopefully a Team.
(if on a Team and sent on a training mission ,you teach what was taught at SFQC not what others show,demo or teach)
Training must be Uniform,not mix and create as one wants.

Various People train and get cross trained,and Thank You letters with unit ID on them.
The certificates are not issued by the JFK Warfare Center,the center which instructs SF skills across the board.
These certificates are unit,personnel specific.

The unit Certificate of Instructorship issued to Mr Todd,a civilian,is another example of a Unit based training not Special Forces wide training.

Similar to the Thank You Letters and other letters of specific instruction given by Vunak to Virginia Based,only, SEALs.

I instructed members of my Team and members of my company in martial skills I had,as did other members of the Team and Company, but that in no way makes me an SF H2H Instructor.(though many it seems would claim such title)

Look at the Black Belt magazine article and see that Mr Webb and Mr Jordan are skilled in Kung Fu,Tang Soo Do,Taekwondo and Mr Loong FMA,sorry these are not the arts used in SF training,this is training used by groups,companies and teams most times in place of physical training.

The article also gives a contact for Readers to find out about the Course,so it is not SF Specific.

Special Forces insignia or unit specific certicates does not mean SF across the board recognition.
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JimH

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Re: Special Operations Martial Arts
« Reply #8 on: March 26, 2008, 08:17:30 PM »

John Joyce is the Master Chief Instructor of Combatives Concepts International. He started Martial Arts at a young age and got his first Black Belt in Tae Kwon Do at 16. He then gravitated to the Filipino Martial Arts and studied under Ted Lucay Lucay and Dan Inosanto in Southern California. In 1984 he entered the US Army and served with both the 2/75th Ranger Battalion and the 1st Special Forces Group in Ft. Lewis, WA.

"While in the 1st Special Forces Group, John worked with James Webb and helped develop and teach Special Forces Combatives."

As I thought,
CWO Webb and Sgt Joyce Started/Developed THEIR OWN Brand of Combatives ,calling it Special Forces Combatives.
(Self Made Instructors)
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Bryan Lee

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Re: Special Operations Martial Arts
« Reply #9 on: March 27, 2008, 01:52:26 AM »



  Hock, I was told James Webb was sick a few months ago, I have no specifics about that but I do know he was recently in Pattaya Thailand running a class, actually two classes.

  James Webb is certainly a Retired Chief Warrant Officer 4 and Special Forces. I do not think anyone is questioning that, I'm certainly not. The document he presented to Blaise Loong while on Active Duty and authorized to issue such documents I view as a credible document.   However when the credentials of Geoff Tank Todd came up as I stated none of the right answers appeared, in fact all the wrong answers showed up thus my spending countless hours doing research into the matter and letting a couple years roll by before I have chosen to address it.

  Most likely none of this would be of any issue outside of one simple fact. Geoff Tank Todd has set himself up as the single most qualified authority on the subject of Combatives yet he was never even in the military. James Webb for whatever reason, most likely financial was heavily involved with building up the myth that Todd and the Todd Group were somehow the missing link when it comes to the science of killing men with small arms and edged weapons.

  This book is as good a place as any to start with. I have already included one link to it but some may want to go back and read the Bios for Todd and Webb as written by Todd.




http://books.google.co.th/books?id=WywWS0aNpT8C&pg=PA18&lpg=PA18&dq=special+forces+combatives&source=web&ots=UFN0Big79D&sig=__MpmcMSGbMEDSfD5dqjLu6DMX8&hl=en#PPA27,M1
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Bryan Lee

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Re: Special Operations Martial Arts
« Reply #10 on: March 27, 2008, 03:34:48 AM »

 Last year I was given the impression that Todd and Webb no longer work together. I asked that question directly and was given some kind of "To Busy" answer. It is correct that I was given a phone number to call and invited to travel to New Zealand at my expense to attend their gathering but understood Webb would not be there, then other information which discredited the inflated resume of Todd came up and I have no interest to go there as things stand. There are many chapters to this story but it needs some background information.

Please make a note of the words pedigree and linage, in Todds own words,,,,,,,,,,

http://www.schoolofselfdefence.com/todd-close-combat.htm


Combined with his training and qualifications from the modern-day experts Mšngels, Webb and Jordan as well as his association with the leading international instructors of the International Close Combat Instructors Association Geoff Todd has a pedigree in military close combat and self defence unequalled by any living individual. From exponent training under Harry Baldock through to hand-to-hand combat and specialist self defence training under Charles Nelson and special operations armed and unarmed combat under Colonel Rex Applegate to passing his Special Forces Combative instructor qualification course and achieving Master Chief Instructor status, Geoff Todd has moved up through the ranks and has been trained and qualified by the world's best, past and present.

The Todd System of Close Combat is a combination of the best of the best, past and present and includes 25 years and over 100,000 hours of his full-time commitment to developing a system that is practical, effective, battle proven and a true military science. The Todd system with over 50 specialist module's, is current and correct and has been tested in the research and development phases as well as in urban and military special operations, the system has proven itself time and time again.

The Todd System has been and is continuing to be instructed to regular and elite forces to this day. Following in the direction of his former instructor's Geoff Todd realises his responsibility to the service personnel he trains and takes this responsibility most seriously. He works for the love of his trade and has a commitment to that trade and the people he trains. A heavy weight rests upon his shoulders when you consider those he trains, life or death may well depend upon his commitment to excellence. He considers himself a caretaker of the close combat doctrine at this point in time and is fully committed to the continued research development and improvement of his close combat system. His duty is not only to ensure the best in skills but the continuation of the close combat practices and teachings well into the future and as such and unselfishly he trains several assistants of the highest calibre to continue with the work that was handed on to him by his former instructors and be current assistant instructors to the Todd Group.

There is nothing Geoff considers more deadly close or final than battlefield close combat and this is his motivation and commitment to the preservation, improvement and continuation of excellence in the field of true military close combat.

He is a current Military Special Operations Master chief instructor and a director of the International Close Combat Instructors Association.




http://www.closecombatinstructors.com/tank-todd.htm

Geoff "Tank" Todd Bio


Elite Forces CQB Master Chief Instructor. Over 20 years instructing experience. Former instructors include Harry Baldock (unarmed combat instructor NZ Army WWII), Colonel Rex Applegate OSS WWII and Charles Nelson, US Marine Corps. From the previous he has learnt the skills of such CQB greats as Fairbairn, Sykes, OíNeil and Biddle and has utilised such proven material, along with his time with the modern day military CQB greats, to compile programmes for civilian, security, law enforcement and military instruction. Tank has passed his Special Forces combatives instructor selection course in Southeast Asia and is certified to instruct both the Applegate and Nelson systems. His school has been operating for over seventy-five years and he is currently an Army Special Forces CQB Master Chief Instructor. His lineage and qualifications from the evolutionary pioneers are equalled by no other military close combat instructor. His operation includes his New Zealand headquarters, and 15 depots worldwide as well as contracts to train the military elite, security forces, and close protection specialists. Annually he trains thousands of exponents and serious operators travel down-under to learn from the direct descendant of the experts and pioneers of military close combat. Following in the footsteps of his former seniors, he has developed weapons, and training equipment exclusive to close combat and tactical applications. He has published several manuals and produced videos on urban self protection, tactical control and restraint, and close combat. He has racked up an impressive 100,000 hours of close combat training and instructing.



  This information leads to a bigger question, that is exactly who is and what is the International Close Combat Instructors Association (ICCIA)? For that answer I refer to their website and their own words.

http://www.closecombatinstructors.com/close-combat-association.htm


Introduction


The International Close Combat Instructors Association (ICCIA) is made up of over 35 military instructors through to Master Chief level instructors of military armed and unarmed combat.

The ICCIA is headed by Geoff Todd (Tank), a current Special Forces CQB Master Chief Instructor of New Zealand and Lawrence Jordan, a US Special Forces Close Combat Master Chief Instructor. Tank and Lawrence have to ensure the Association is kept elite and its standards are never compromised. This means vetting all nominated potential members and remaining true to the Associationís purpose, that is to promote the military science of close combat tactical skills for all military roles, never traditional or competitive methods. There is a clear drawn line that separates us from non-military practitioners.

The ICCIA is all about winning. You select only the best people, those that are committed to being the best. You dispense with greed and glory and you encourage cross fertilization of skills and that is the directive of the association: loyalty, honor, professionalism and commitment. The association sells nothing but offers everything through an elite association of experts working all round the world with a common purpose. Allied elite individuals with a wealth of knowledge and experience. People that can recognize the difference between skills that work and those that just might get you killed. This specialist group may not resemble your military or martial arts movie stars in appearance, but you would find difficulty in locating a deadlier bunch of dirty tricks brigade practitioners anywhere on the planet. The association membership has and always will be made up of operators and operational instructors that employ or promote the battle proven, "get tough", "kill or be killed" principals of their predecessors.

This is where the association differs from the non-military practices. Where skills may well be capable of deadly results and their practitioners may well be just as capable of achieving them, but until they do, or unless they have post battle reports to evaluate their effectiveness and performance, they can not state that the methods are battle proven. It is then just a matter of speculation.

Time has seen the battle proven skills and principals being passed down from chief to chief and further developed to meet modern day requirements. This makes the current association like those that have passed before them, guardians of the doctrine at this point in time. This brings with it a huge responsibility to ensure the evolution continues to develop, as it has over the centuries, a collection of elite specialist principals and people.

The association collectively has experts in every facet of armed and unarmed close combat. Members with backgrounds that have seen them operate or instruct with history making records. Protecting Presidents, Prime Ministers and Royal Families, break mass riots, operate covertly behind enemy lines, train groups that have changed the course of history.



  What follows are again words from their own website, maybe I should say Todds own website where he maintains editorial control of all content. What I have found to be most telling is that he fails his own prerequisite to be a member of his own organization, yet he is the greatest expert on this subject matter.   




The prerequisite of a military close combat armed or unarmed combat instructor

All military close combat instructors should have a resume that includes verification of their attending and completing exponent and instructor courses. Depending on country, service, and unit, proof of qualification, rank, and status will vary, but there will always be a paper trail and a record of service in relation to instructor close combat qualifications and service.

Martial arts, combat sports or general sports qualifications records and achievements are not relevant considerations as the position and role of a military close combat instructor is to be confident and qualified in the military science of close combat.

Note included references for training military personnel are not relevant unless the individual is qualified in military close combat. All credible and legitimate instructors have a history. Without this history and means of checking their previous experience and credentials they cannot be considered as qualified military close combat instructors.

Any individual claiming to be a military close combat instructor has an obligation to provide credible verification in the form of a paper trail that can be substantiated.

The ranking system of European military close combat is structured as follows: basic exponent, advanced exponent, instructor, senior instructor, Master instructor, chief instructor, Master chief instructor. The previous qualifications and titles fall into three categories of instructing qualification which would be clearly stated on certification licensing and course reports. Reserves instructor, Regular Force Instructor, Special Forces Instructor.

Please read before completing. Military Close Combat is a military science not a sport or martial art. Please do not include any martial arts or combat sports details as they will not be considered and are not relevant.

Questionnaire: Military Close Combat

   1. Where did you complete your basic military close combat course?
   2. When did you complete your basic military close combat course?
   3. Who was the chief instructor of the course?
   4. Where did you complete your advanced military close combat course?
   5. When did you complete your advanced military close combat course?
   6. Who was the chief instructor?
   7. When did you undertake your military close combat instructor training qualification course?
   8. Where did you undertake your military close combat instructor training qualification course?
   9. Who was the chief instructor signing off your qualification?
  10. What is your current military close combat Rank and/or status?
  11. When did you achieve your current status?
  12. Who signed off your current qualification and status?
  13. What military close combat courses have you instructed on, name the service, unit, courses, conducted and the dates?
  14. State the individual modules of close combat that you are qualified and confident to instruct.

Please include with this completed questionnaire copies of all course reports, references, certification or all licences in military close combat from exponent through to your current status and qualification. Thank you.

Inquiries to the Director of Overseas Affairs
Email: Geoff "Tank" Todd - tank@toddgroup.com
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theardri

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Re: Special Operations Martial Arts
« Reply #11 on: March 27, 2008, 07:10:08 AM »

You were not rambling  Hock, I've issues with the book as well (it also needs to see an editor, but I digress). Training is much different at the Todd Group, it's hard and tough (well I was the oldest (32) in the class so it might be age?) with only a few hero worship stories. The exception was when Charles Nelson died.

I still don't get the point of these two threads, beyond self gratification for the originator? I will use the line that got me thrown of the Combatives yahoo group, it seems to be a lot of my Sensei can kick your senseiís arse, going on, and well screw that for a game of soldiers.

Yes Coffee was very good this morning, and hopefully will stop me blowing the lab up!
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Bryan Lee

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Re: Special Operations Martial Arts
« Reply #12 on: March 28, 2008, 03:45:30 AM »


  I want to try to remain on topic so I wont bother responding to couple jabs poked at my motivation for bothering with any of this.


  So where were we? Webb was a CW2 Special Operations Officer tasked with combatives training people within his command in the mid eighties. How many people were under his command and how many people were actually trained as a result of his being tasked with training them? I have no idea and have never seen any numbers put up. For that matter I have never seen any time lines disclosed that would tell how long it took to develop the program, was it a week, a month, a year? How long did the program exist, A year? Six months? Today, in 2008 it is common knowledge that Special Forces outsources firearms training and other specialized training. Will this continue to be their policy? I have no idea but here and now I'm interested as to what is happening today and yesterday. So again were back in 1985, Webb is looking to train his men and contacts Blaise Loong in California, a student of Dan Inosantos.

  Why did Webb choose Blaise Loong? I have no idea about that and as far as I know Loong was never Active Army but it has been eluded to that he was Operational in both the 70s and 80s in Thailand and possibly other locations.

http://www.websitetoolbox.com/tool/post/celticsword/vpost?id=685471&trail=20

  Again I have no idea if Blaise Loong was a Operational Asset or not. I have never seen any real evidence he was but I have never seen anyone say he was not either. He has made some small talk about it but thats about it, I have never seen anything he has written that would pass as Military Fraud. In fact Webb would have had all kinds of access to his background before he ever chose to work with him so my best guess is he was an experienced operator and that was why he was chosen for the training program Webb developed for his group.

  If anyone has any information on that they are welcome to put it on the table. I will try to ask Blaise about it directly but that may not be possible since I have openly criticized Dan Inosanto for his relationship with Gyi. For the record I have never criticized Blaise Loong and this is not any attempt to start being a critic of his but who knows how this story will end or what information will come out?

http://www.specialoperationsmartialarts.com/


Special Operations Martial Arts

 
The SOMA Program was created in the Spring of 1991 by Master Chief Instructor Blaise Loong. Initially developed exclusively for U.S. Special Operations Forces, SOMA was soon deemed necessary for particular law enforcement assets, certain private security forces and qualified U.S. citizens.
 
In February 1985 Blaise Loong was one of three original instructors assigned to develop the U.S. Army's Special Forces Combatives Courses (SFCC). Under the auspices of the 1st Special Forces Group (Airborne) and its Commanding Officer David Baratto, Blaise, alongside his two compatriots -- John Joyce and James Webb -- helped to put together a curriculum of devastating proportion.
 
There are three essential components that make up SOMA.
 
   1. CQT (close quarter termination)
   2. Sentry Neutralizations
   3. Improvised Weapons
 
CQT training focuses on specific offensive strategies utilizing a variety of weapons systems: empty-hands, knife, firearm.
 
Sentry neutralization techniques include empty-hands, knife, garrote, suppressed weapons (firearm \ crossbow).
 
Improvised weapons instruction concentrates on the primitive -- "sticks and stones" technology.




http://boneheadllc.com/Testimonials.html


This is John Joyce, friend from long ago. I happened across your web site and was reading the discussion board highlights. I wanted to offer myself to testify in Blaise's behalf on his involvement in the development of the 1st Special Forces Group Combatives Course. You can see my signature on Blaise's diploma. James Webb and our company commander Major Matthew Williams III (P) were the other two signers.

I even have original pictures from this course that I will give you if you can contact me.

I know there are many claiming to be this or that, but I would like to add that Blaise was instrumental in helping bring about what has become the "original" Special Forces Combatives. He was one of the original three instructors who started this program in 1985. His training methods, instruction in bladework and stick fighting and many other combative attributes were incorporated and are still in use today. Prior to this combatives had not been formally trained to Special Forces soldiers in almost 20 years.

I left the military many years ago and so did the other original instructors. Many are still teaching in private capacities. One thing I would like to add about all these other Special Forces Combatives trainers. Instructors only stay with a unit for a period of about three years. Training is left to the discretion of the unit commander. Some were pro martial arts / combatives training and others were not. Needless to say, in the last 20 years there have been numerous other Special Forces Combatives training programs but I feel that our program offered the best training possible.

Now there is a formal Combatives School run by the US Army. Having read the description of the course I was very disappointed to see that they missed the mark completely. They use the Gracie method and adopted it so Combatives can now be a sport. At least they are doing something, but I would have liked to see more combative elements mixed in.
« Last Edit: March 28, 2008, 03:51:01 AM by Bryan Lee »
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theardri

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Re: Special Operations Martial Arts
« Reply #13 on: March 28, 2008, 05:40:34 AM »

Actually the "jabs" were asking why you are doing this. It's a question and the easiest way to show why you are doing this, is saying so rather than implying all sorts of things. Thus far you've made comments about Geoff, Mr Webb, Blaise etc with out actually getting to the point. If you are questioning credentials to teach (as you imply but don't quite get there) Bullshido is a better place for this, as you will get all the tweens bowing at your feet for questioning some Combatives instructors credentials, if (as I hope you do) have a point ... get to it.

OH and get over not being paid to fly to Dunedin to train and talk with Geoff, he's not a rich man, so he's not going to pay for every person who has a question to go.

So again what is the point of all this?
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JimH

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Re: Special Operations Martial Arts
« Reply #14 on: March 28, 2008, 05:54:47 AM »

Again what is the purpose of the thread ?

You want to remain on topic,what topic ,wanting people here help to prove or disprove some body and their truths or non truths ?

This course ,Webbs combatives,as I have repeatedly said is Not SPECIAL FORCES Combatives ,nor Special forces wide.

This Course was developed by the men listed because the CO was apparently into martial arts and some members ,WEBB and JOYCE,had previous experience.


LOONG was given recognition as a Master Chief Trainer,what ever that is,after he helped add materials for use to the self stylized course of Webb and Joyce.

Loong was a friend of Insanto,Joyce was a friend /student of Insanto.
Loong also STATES that he NEVER served in the military and that he had worked with MEMBERS of the 5th Special Forces,civilian advisor, prior to working with CWO Webb and 1st SFGA,civilian advisor.

Here is a quote from the supposed writings of the CO:

"Training is left to the discretion of the unit commander. Some were pro martial arts / combatives training and others were not. Needless to say, in the last 20 years there have been numerous other Special Forces Combatives training programs but I feel that our program offered the best training possible"

The course was not Special Forces wide,the Course was a self created task for a variation of Physical Training as has been,and is, always the case in Group,Company and Team levels in Special Forces.

H2H after SFQC is not a mandatory task,that is why they teach the simplistic Basics of Combatives /Combat Judo/Jujitsu in SFQC.

H2H for Special Forces is not the Larson MMA styled training ,it is Combatives,Combat Judo.
What TMA ,sport,MMA or Combat art one studies or trains after SFQC is their personal training.

Special Forces Now trains 40 hours of H2H in SFQC,until this change the amount was around 10 hours.
Special Forces has always included a Form of H2H training since its inception,as the fore runners of SF were OSS and they had training from Fairbairn,Applegate and Sykes similar training.

Commandos in WWII and the OSS had approx. 4-6 hours of H2H.

Loong was not an asset nor operational he was a guest instructor the same as MANY ,MANY H2H Instructors from around the WORLD have been.

Black Belt Magazine has written articles on Hapkido as the Art of Special Forces.
There are Hundreds of Koreans who have been Instructors to Special Forces,teaching Hapkido to Groups in Asia since the Vietnam war,they also have similar certificates of thanks and have issued Certificates from Group to members who took their courses.
It means nothing more.

If you have a skill in H2H and want to spend your own money and get a certificate write to the Various Spec Ops units and tell them you would like to demo your stuff,some one will take you up on it and give you a letter, a certificate,maybe even a tee shirt,lol.
(Like UFC fighter B J Penn did last year for 1st SFGA)

In the end you can then claim what you like,show the certificate and wear the tee shirt and it will mean absolutely NOTHING,except to the uninformed who believe the hyped up BS.

It is all an embelished story of self created Greatness.
(I wonder how Special Forces Combatives Training under CWO Webb was allowed to be opened to the public ??)

Special Forces and Special Operations in General DO NOT spend much time training H2H.

Thousands demo their materials for various Spec Ops units,few are contracted for the long hall and fewer have their materials taught across the board,but having your stuff taught across the board does not mean it is GREAT material,it means you knew some one in the right place to push your version,like Larson and his MMA US Army Recruit training wide,lol.

The training of Spec Ops people in H2H is nothing Great,nor are there Secrets,it would be Great if the Public understood that and stopped buying into Spec Ops this and that trainers.

Again I do not get the purpose of this thread nor the Cestari thread,I am just trying to clarify the misconceptions or what SF and Spec Ops H2H and what paper certificates of Thanks Signify.
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Hock

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Re: Special Operations Martial Arts
« Reply #15 on: March 28, 2008, 07:07:39 AM »

"Sure there are things to be learned here, after all this is the history of what we do. Nobody on this forum can be involved with any Combatives and not be interested in this as a subject matter. The problem lay in that certain figures raise homemade flags higher than the Stars and Stripes, then they are surprised when they get called on it." -Bryan Lee


Well, these topics are updated pieces of history that can be researched on. I really don't mind them being discussed at all, and passed around as general knowledge.

I recall a time not all that long ago, that some niave schools in America were hosting Loong and saying on fliers and in conversation that he was some kind of veteran/Rambo/Superspy. Given his military, viking, and indian sales pitch penchents, I wonder how all that military misinterpretation got started?  I saw some of the flyers and you would swear that veteran/Rambo/mankiller himself was crawling out of the jungle. One host thought he was once a Green Beret. Now..granted sometimes these flyers are completely made by the local hosts that misunderstand and exaggerate. But, it was clear to me in the big picture that he was pretending to be something he never was, or not clarifying what he really was.  It is unlikely you will find any words on this about this now, because, as with "trained with the Nordic Viking master" stories, these ads, pages and stories have been taken down years ago.

And, this thread has caused JimH, for example to write many lines of defined, informative history and information. Good synopsis and reference. A "clear thinking" example and sample that I think is inspiring to others.

It is hard enough for civilians to weed through all these Military Combatives Master crap and courses, to undertstand what little, if any, impact they have in the real military and then to fully understand that in the end, a jack shit is still just a jack shit nobody. Anyone of us, or any one of the people we know, can at any time, fall prey to these phonies. Unless the subject comes up once in a while.

Hock
« Last Edit: March 28, 2008, 06:40:09 PM by Hock »
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Re: Special Operations Martial Arts
« Reply #16 on: March 28, 2008, 02:39:48 PM »

The first thought that comes to mind is " WHO GIVES A SHIT". Ford makes claims , Chevy makes claims and so does Dodge. Each is better then the other. So how does a guy like me decide. I read the claims and then a drive each of the damn cars and find out for my self. I have trained with people who had certs. and belts and credentials that you would have thought they would have had a constellation named after them by now. But they didn't have the skill to fight or teach .
 I met Capt. Ben Mangels at a Ninjitsu demo he was doing in the late 80s. I then learned combat jujitsu under one of his black belts. I knew nothing about Ben, who he was, what he had been through and what he really taught or new. But everytime he taught and got ahold of me I knew he was the real deal and a true bad ass. Proof is in the pudding not the paper. It was later in the 90s when I started with Hock , that I learned who Ben was and then I asked Giddings, my jujitsu instructor about Ben and how they met.
 The point is you have to do the research the old way. Get off your ass and see the people, met them , if they float your boat then train with them. The Internet is a great tool, but there is to much bullshit to read for the pros and cons of everything and anything. this very thread has made my head hurt. I don't even know what the topic is anymore. I'd have to wade through two pages of bullshit to find out. I think it was Hock who told me once, that he never heard a Filipino master say anything good about another Filipino master. And thats just it. Its competition, who's better then who, who's got the better rap sheet and done the most . Well who gives a shit. As long as you learn. And you can fight.
I didn't know anything about Hock when I met him at a Remy seminar. But when I paired up with him, I knew he could swing the sticks and he moved differently from everyone else and he could fight and All his students could fight. Unlike the other stick people I was with. He has  turned out to be the best instructor I have ever had. He solidified all my other styles into one functional fighting system and has added two fold to them. But if today I got onto some of the JKD sites and forums and read about Hock. My God why do I train with this man, I would ask my self. He may go crazy and kill us all  at any time, using poor technique and blame it all on JKD. But I know better. So this He said She said shit just doesn't cut it anymore. And I find that the more you read, the less you start to care, move on. Fords sell and Chevy sells each hates the other, both have good and bad. take the best of both and go. Life to short


                                                               REDFIVE
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Bryan Lee

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Re: Special Operations Martial Arts
« Reply #17 on: March 29, 2008, 05:59:41 AM »




   JimH, If you don't get the point don't bother with it. We disagree on many things not the least of which is American Policy in the Middle East. By now I'm well aware of your background and your connect there, you will not ever be welcomed in any Muslim Country again just as I'm not welcome in Israel, good thing I don't need their oil.

   If you want to try to insult me thats fine but you have gone beyond silly of late. That starting with your background check on me last year via Military.com the only source you have access to although you told me you were accessing the  DOD Database at the time. If you want to play games thats fine, may I suggest you practice your Deadly Chi. I don't bother mentioning it because I count it as a waste of time, that is the time I spent at a Hopkido Dojo in Korea, their food sucks too, the worst in Asia.



JimH PostPosted: Fri Aug 12, 2005 1:04 pm


The use of Aikido by the Green Berets was not so much for SD,but was to tune them in to their spiritual side and make them develop a Warrior spirit and was also being used to take them to a higher plain of consciousness to help them be able to throw their Chi or inner power and kill at distance,which has only been done,supposedly by the inventor of this technique,as he supposedly killed a goat with his Chi projection at Bragg


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Hock

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Re: Special Operations Martial Arts
« Reply #18 on: March 29, 2008, 06:21:43 AM »

Hey Theardi, one quick, barely related question.

You mentioned Jordon.
I have not spoken with him in about 6 years now.
Is his voice...okay? Has it gotten any worse?
I would guess he would someday loose his voice completely.


Hock
« Last Edit: March 29, 2008, 08:59:34 AM by Hock »
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JimH

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Re: Special Operations Martial Arts
« Reply #19 on: March 29, 2008, 08:22:39 AM »

Hey Bryan what are you on about ?

I do not understand your attacks on the people on this post and on the Cestari post,simple,apparently I am not the only one.

Now you come after me for not figuring out your point ?

I made my point clear that I am posting on here to clear up the misuse and misconception of Special Forces,Special Operations and the Use of BS Certificates to prove something along the lines of combatives Instructors.

As to your point about me searching you :
you came on saying that people argue that you dfid not Serve in the military,I searched and found you worked on Helos,if I remember right,I verified your position and YOU THANKED ME ,period end of story.
As to where I got my information if you go to military.com ,where you say I got your info,for some basic checking you will see where the information says DOD.

As to the point on chi and its use by Guy Sevelli (sp) as he was hired to teach it to a segement of the SF population,I posted as to what was going on at Bragg,what they expected and what they got,sorry I was not part of the training  group,I throw munitions down range not Chi.
No one else really accomplished killing by chi either but they did gain calmness and more awareness in regards to Battlefield operational abilities.
( I am sure the point you posted was just a portion of my response as it is way to short to be all I wrote,lol.)

I posted nothing to you or about you in this thread or any other,only made specific corrections to ERRORS being pushed forward as truths by misleading people using misleading paper work.

You posted realistic looking certificates that mean nothing in the Real world,it is just friends helping friends,ranking them and giving them a paper false paper trail to make them and themselves important.

Perhaps you intended to use the misinformation to validify some point and I spoiled it for you,I do not know,and I could care less,If I can Inform rather than misinform then I did my job.

I have been in the SF/Spec Ops community and it is my point to correct errors that Non memmbers of the community push as truths.

I guess the emails you sent Thanking me for backing you,asking me to join your group as a moderator,which I would not do, and asking me to search for people for you,which I would not do,is all behind us now,lol.
Perhaps it was you naming people you said were Fake SF wannabees and when I said I knew them from the SF community ,maybe that annoyed you?

Hey if you need a reason to claim I am picking on you ,as you do about other sites go for it.

I am not bothered.

If you want to be seen as a combatives Instructor or what ever by wanna bees,phonies and self proclaimed experts then have fun,the proof is in the result not the paper trail.

As Redfive said,people like Hock provides more Realistic knowledge than many of the proclaimed,Spec Ops,SF,so called combatives experts.

Rant on if you wish,but when you post false documents and stories,I will be there to put you straight,Like it or NOT.


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Bryan Lee

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Re: Special Operations Martial Arts
« Reply #20 on: March 29, 2008, 10:01:03 AM »


  JimH, You pissed me off so you got a slap on the ass. I may be the single best authority you will ever meet when it comes to paperwork and documents, what is meaningful and what is pure bullshit. If you have ever read much of my writing you will find all kinds of valid information posted about simple jack asses who spent one day on the range to qualify with some weapon then never fired the thing again and now throw it up in everybody's face about how well hung they are with validity.

Currently I'm digging into the background of one jack ass thats claiming he was the sole authority of a 9,000,000 $US budget while at the same time a front line soldier, thing is he didn't know jack shit about his subject matter but man does he have a paper trail.

  The last time people smashed bottles over my head they failed to ask for documentation that I could defend myself, they did find out it takes a village to whip my ass and they couldn't get it done. I was bloody but sewed up well after driving myself to the hospital on a motorcycle wondering if I would bleed to death there alone in the jungle but not to worry, no knife work only some glass sticking out of my head, the second hardest part of my body.

I don't need your sympathy or any of your Korean documents around here as the proof is in the pudding and the lead is still in my pencil.
« Last Edit: March 29, 2008, 11:31:36 AM by Bryan Lee »
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Re: Special Operations Martial Arts
« Reply #21 on: March 29, 2008, 12:04:34 PM »

 

  Some more emails have been sent out, will be waiting for some answers, possibly for a long time!
   

« Last Edit: March 29, 2008, 12:10:13 PM by Bryan Lee »
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JimH

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Re: Special Operations Martial Arts
« Reply #22 on: March 29, 2008, 01:00:42 PM »

Bryan,
I wonder what was said in this thread to annoy you ?

I pissed you off and I got a smack on the Ass ?
What smack ?

You are a Funny Nutter man.

This thread and the Cestari thread were posted by you to try and get information on the people mentioned and on the wolf pack.

If anything I posted annoyed you ,it must have been my dismissing the phony documents as that was all I spoke about.
Oh
AND THERE ARE NO SECRETS.
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JimH

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Re: Special Operations Martial Arts
« Reply #23 on: March 29, 2008, 02:36:36 PM »

Thanks for the Support and kind words Whitewolf.
Much Appreciated.

Bryan,
after re reading your last post about sending emails and seeing that it was 2 hours after the post you sent prior I get the impression that you have hinted that the emails may be about me.

If so ask me for what information you want that is not found on
Military.com,
Together we served (USMC side),
ProfesiionalSoldiers.com (for SF people,supposed to be vetted),
the school I attends web site ,
an SAS site which is Vetted,
KarateKorner.com,
Martialartsplanet.com,to name a few.

If you want a full listing of Military training ,schools and dates and or of those I have trained with and Ranks I will gladly post it as well.

Anything to help you find what you want.
Nothing to Hide here.

Are you as Open ?

I wonder how you opened a Sambo school with No ranking?
Looking for some of those quick Certs are you,LOL.

Have fun man,have fun.

I like when I have been nice and some one decides to make it not so nice.
« Last Edit: March 29, 2008, 02:43:13 PM by JimH »
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whitewolf

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Re: Special Operations Martial Arts
« Reply #24 on: March 29, 2008, 02:53:36 PM »

JimH-I recently  joined the forum together weserved (usmc)-i dont look at it  much but it is great-and see you did it again-you tried to push his button which is what he wishes-watch for his next response-he is sitting in the dark like a bug-waiting to shoot out his tongue and see if he can get something with it-(or he could be on the dark  side and be worse)-and finally i  ant responding to any of his posts directly..... :P :P-stay safe white wolf (el lobo blanco- I really like the spanish thanks to Nick)
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JimH

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Re: Special Operations Martial Arts
« Reply #25 on: March 29, 2008, 04:22:59 PM »

Whitewolf,
"Together We Served" is a Great site to find Some OLD Pals,lol.
We had a reunion of some of the guys I served in MCSF with in July and we found several on the site and they knew of others not on the site.
We went from 10 guys who got together fairly regularly to finding 40 more in almost three months of searching.
Very Nice site
Semper Fi
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whitewolf

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Re: Special Operations Martial Arts
« Reply #26 on: March 29, 2008, 11:06:31 PM »

JimH-i looked and saw a couple names but i guess time marches on-I retired in 1980 and i guess a  lot of us went to the big Marine Corps in the sky-but as a small meracle i guy that i call my brother just came to Kuwait to work as a fireman on arfjn army base-we have know each other 50 years now-we drank uzo together in the Med as PFCs-what a small world-as to you sir keep on training keep on teaching and keep that globe and anchor in your eye-whitewolf (el lobo blanco)
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Bryan Lee

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Re: Special Operations Martial Arts
« Reply #27 on: March 30, 2008, 02:56:08 AM »


   It seems I have asked one to many questions of Blaise Loong. I have now been kicked off his forum. In the past I publicly defended Loong when his credibility was attacked because he was then working with James Webb, this year when I received new information it seemed appropriate that I look further into it which I have done. While there are still emails that have gone out to others seeking more information I have already come to some basic conclusions. This was never a witch hunt, in fact there is now close to three years of information I have compiled since I first learned of any of this.

  This is a link to some simple questions that I asked Loong, he could have answered them any way he chose but in the end he chose to Plead The Fifth. The basic text is copied below. I have left out a couple posts to try and remain on topic but it can all be read unless they take it down from their site. In the end all they could do is redirect to Bullshido where my wife was attacked by a bunch of chickenshits, I included those links as they posted them for full disclosure, I have nothing to hide and my Military background has been verified.


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[Online!] Changtokmun
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Old post 03/28/08 at 06:30 AM    Reply #1

I started a thread here, http://hockscombatforum.com/index.php/topic,3735.0.html about Special Operations Martial Arts. It could easily be viewed as criticism and flaming but thats not where I'm heading with it. If anything I'm using the thread to smoke out some people who are claiming to be combatives experts and Special Operations Trainers who have never had any formal relationship or even verifiable relationship to the U.S. Army. The Chief of these so far is Geoff Tank Todd who is somehow claiming to be the worlds foremost authority on the subject of Combatives.

Some direct questions are as follows,,,,,,,,,,, Blaise,
Have you ever been Active Army? Were you Airborne? Were you Special Forces?
What year did you come to Thailand and how long were you here?
Are you fluent in Thai Language? Are you fluent in any associated Vietnamese Language?
Why did James Webb seek you out in 1985 to help him develop the Special Operations Combatives program? Do you have any relationship to Elite Force International? Do you still have plans to come back to Thailand?

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 cestus1
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Old post 03/28/08 at 04:07 PM    Reply #2
 
Hey Bro, Here're some answers for ya. Never been RA. (regular army) I am a qualified parachutist.
I have been trained \ qualified by SF cadre. Thailand in '81...off and on (short durations) since.
Not fluent in Thai. Can cuss in VN.
 
Webb and I saw eye-to-eye on the need for a hardcore "real-world" combatives POI for SF \ SOF personnel. He put our idea forward to the then-CO of the 1st SFG(A), Col. Baratto (now General). Baratto liked what he heard and gave us a green light. The ORIGINAL U.S. ARMY SPECIAL FORCES COMBATIVES COURSE was held in Feb. 1985. Ft. Lewis, WA. for the First SF Group.
I am officially affiliated w\no one. I am an independent contractor.
I have plans to return to Thailand sometime this year.
Hope this helps out.

Blaise Loong
 [/color]
 
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[Online!]  Changtokmun
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Old post Yesterday at 05:06 AM    Reply #3
Blaise, Thanks for answering the questions. Anyone who read the attack against you on Bullshido will know I was one of your most vocal defenders. In the end everything negative written about you turned out to be bullshit, I suspect that will also be the end result with this series of questions.
Last night I spent the evening having dinner with one of my best friends in Thailand, Big Bob. He is a very well known Vietnam Vet and U.S. Air Force Retired Master Chief Jet Fighter Mechanic who also did some Helicopter Repair in the early 60s. He will be 70 in a few months and he rides his 1600cc Honda from one end of Thailand to the other on R&R year round. He is a quiet man and former Commander of the VFW here in Thailand. He is a man I have a great respect for, he served his country with honor and was the direct reason many of our Hero Pilots got to be Hero's, he was happy to do the hard work that kept them in the air.
There is a famous story here in Thailand concerning him. One day he went to Harrys Bar in Udon Thani, Harry pretty much knows everything about everybody and someone had mentioned to him that Big Bob was a Vietnam Vet, Harry being Harry politely asked," Bob, what did you do in Vietnam?" to which Bob simply replied " I was a mechanic." Upon hearing that, Harry said,"Your the first person I ever met in Thailand that was not Special Forces!" Now thats a true story the joke being about every swinging dick with a beer in his hand claims to be Special Forces in Thailand.
Within some of your pictures there is one with you wearing a Tabbed Uniform with Sergent Stripes, It appears to show your name on the pocket. In the same picture Steve is shown clearly wearing a Army Uniform with correct name and no rank. Some would get the impression you were Active Army from that picture being posted. There is also another couple pictures that suggest were Operational in Thailand and elsewhere along with a few other simple matters that you could clear up like your references to the Nung that give the impression you were in combat with them and were a witness to human death during it. I'm not making any accusation but I would like to hear from you exactly what you were referencing.

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Quote: Old post 12/10/05 at 05:15 PM    Reply #14
Wow! The ancient of days. Young & dumb.
I remember getting busted by our Thai *civilian* liason at that party...too young to drink & hair "too fuc#ing long!" I told Mr. Sang that I was also too young to carry my side arm, and promptly offered it to him (barrel first).Very young & dumb.
Celtic Sword was allowed a moustache. Many of our Nungs had mid-back to waist length hair. We were working w\paramilitary units (modelled after the old school PRU teams \ CIDGs). Glad I didn't have to get the standard Army *birth control* haircut -- the wearer NEVER gets laid. My hair got less *feathered* as I recall.Youth...too bad it's wasted on young people.

Blaise Loong

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Old post Yesterday at 10:26 AM    Reply #6

I am a legitimate U.S. Army Special Forces Combatives Instructor. Authorized via Col. Baratto & Maj. Williams, 1st SFG(A). Feb. '85 (to present). - Blaise Loong
 
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Old post Yesterday at 11:40 AM    Reply #8

 Blaise, nobody is questioning the document you posted concerning Special Forces Combatives. One of the first questions I asked was whether you were ever active duty, you said no. However there is a picture that you posted on your website of you wearing E5 Rank, possibly E4 Rank and Jump Wings. You said you were Qaulified Parachutist, Did you earn Jump Wings and were you authorized to wear them. Steve Doyle is also shown in uniform with you, was he a U.S. Army Private? I can understand if they were just trophy pictures you guys were taking but if they were you should just say, hey we took some fun pictures, no harm in that. [/b]

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Old post Yesterday at 03:50 PM    Reply #9
 
Changtokmun has been banned
 
Read about him here (his user name is AR549). You will see that he is not well liked and has been offensive to the Dog Bros., Sifu Inosanto and many others. He causes trouble on a number of forums where he has been banned. Just don't need him here:[/color] - Steve Doyle

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(moderator here editing just to tryto shrink the space of this post. Nothing Vital removed)

« Last Edit: March 30, 2008, 07:26:26 AM by Hock »
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Bryan Lee

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Re: Special Operations Martial Arts
« Reply #28 on: March 30, 2008, 04:22:55 AM »




  The picture of Blaise Loong and Steve Doyle in Army Uniforms is claimed to have been taken in Rhodesia Minor in 1985. There are multiple Army Vets with the name Steve Doyle, If anyone can confirm that the Steve Doyle in the picture was Army when the picture was made that would help. Loong clearly stated he was never Active Army and outside of some kind of trophy picture he was never authorized to wear Special Forces Tabs, Airborne Tab, Sergent Stripes or any other Active Army Uniform. It was he himself who posted this picture on his website, then the question of Rhodesia in 1985 in Army Uniform comes up.

  I understand Loong was involved with Special Forces for around 2 weeks in February 1985 and received a certificate to do further training by the Company Commander of said First Special Forces Group. He himself claimed to be a Civilian adviser which is code for CIA. In his own words,


(Quote)"....the U.S. Army's Special Forces Combatives Course(s) that I helped to develop in Feb. 1985 for the 1st Special Forces Group (Airborne) at Fort Lewis, WA, along with other proven military\warcraft close quarter tactics that I have since become aware of.

Prior to 1st Group's reactivation, I worked w\personnel of the 5th SFG(A) and the Tahan Pran of the Royal Thai Army. My official designation was "civilian advisor". I was never a US soldier."(Un-Quote)



 It is my understanding that Blaise Loong was never again to work with Special Forces after the original class in February 1985. His name came up a couple years ago when there was talk of him being a guest instructor at a Camp put on here in Thailand by James Webb who has ran a few camps over here since he retired.

  Anyone who can put me in my place feel free to do so but I find it very hard to believe anyone would be a Civilian Adviser to the Royal Thai Army who cannot speak Thai, the same goes for the Nung which are Vietnamese. I also am left amused by the suggestion that anything official would be going on here with someone who is here for short duration trips and find it more likely that these would have been holidays in Thailand not CIA Missions.

  If you look closely at these two pictures it appears the weapons being held by both Blaise Loong and Steve Doyle are the very same weapons in both pictures yet one is clearly taken in Arizona and the other is said to have been taken in Rhodesia Minor. I also find it very strange that Steve Doyle would buy a semiautomatic Valmet in California then ship it to Rhodesia and back, the picture of receipt has now evaporated the post remains, said weapon was purchased early 80s.

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Old post 05/12/06 at 05:21 PM    Reply #55

Thought I would post this for you guys in the CA AO.
This is my original receipt for my Valmet I bought at Dave's Guns in Costa Mesa.
Those were the days when you could legally buy assault rifles in CA. Some info is blacked out cuz I have the picture sitting on my ValmetWeapons site.
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http://www.ValmetWeapons.com
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JimH

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Re: Special Operations Martial Arts
« Reply #29 on: March 30, 2008, 09:43:16 AM »

In the Special Forces Apache Pictures the  men are wearing mix and match Vietnam era clothing,available from the Military stores and Surplus stores.

The other picture shows the men,supposedly in the mid 80s,also verified by the special Forces Tab  authorized in the  early to mid eighties,but the uniforms are old issue,pre Camo BDU,again 1960s - 1970s issue.

Doyles name tag is not Army Issue,he is also wearing a Special Forces Recon Team intruder patch on his pocket.

Is this picture possible from one of the searches for the remains or Men of RT Intruder and or other men in the Vietnam war ?

I know that Ross Perot,Colonel Howard,Colonel James "Bo" Gritz and CWO Webb area few of those who have gone to and run teams into Thailand,Laos and Vietnam looking for men and or remains of men.
Could these men,pictured, be part of one of ,or a few of those searches?
Perot is one Money Man who paid for several POW issue searches in the late 70s to the late 80's.

As to the picture:
No one in SF Goes Operational with all this name tags and badges on,defeats the purpose of denial if caught.
I do not think the US would have had Badged Identified members bearing weapons on the ground in Rhodesia in 1985.

I think the name tags and badges are an identifier of intent of the mission,if there was one,this is why I say possibly POW issues search.

SF Recon Team Intruder ran Ops for the CIA/US Army,they were part of 5th group.

as to mr Loong being jump qualified:
5th group ,as all groups, are capable of running their own jump schools,so Mr Loong could be jump qualified by members of 5th group,he could also be qualified by formrer SF group members who run Civilian jump schools.
(not being RA,he would not be wearing SF Insignia,though SPECIAL non RA people are put though the SFQC course)

Looking for POW issues could also explain how Mr Loong speaks VN. ,as well as why he appears in Thailand for short periods of time.

Then again they could be CIA or military Posers,anything is possible.
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