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Author Topic: How much grappling?  (Read 5740 times)

bk

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How much grappling?
« on: March 30, 2008, 09:13:19 AM »

Hello,

Just wondering...
How much grappling do you do?
What kind of grappling...BJJ, MMA, Ground/Pound, Judo?

I find this to be my weak area/range. So I have dedicated more time to improving it the last year or so.

I know the ground is not the place one wants to be if ever confronted but I do think its important to learn/have good escape technique and an understanding of what it feels like to carry someone's weight...in order NOT to panic when you find yourself on the ground. Plus BJJ and submission fighting are great for learning sensitivity.

Anyway, looking forward to reading what others train and is it part of your daily workouts.

Thanks,
Brenda


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Hock

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Re: How much grappling?
« Reply #1 on: March 30, 2008, 09:56:48 AM »

It is REALLY difficult doing any grappling programs and not falling into the wrestling and sport trap, muscle memory. (unless that is what you want to do, of course). Most instructors don't even grasp the difference. It takes constant, constant vigilence to stay on course.

If a person were to buy only one DVD on ground fighting? I would say that Jim McCann's Ground n Pound
http://www.hockscqc.com/shop/product272.html

...is the best survival collection there is anywhere.

I believe in the seemless application all tactics, standing, kneeling, sitting and on the ground. Always experiement with everything on the ground. Certainly striking and kicking, but run everything though a "ground test."

In a class room you can cover this easily. Do the move standing, kneeling and on the ground (sitting, as in a car, or something-may need a whole lot chairs) In one taught move your students have been up, down and eveywhere and see what works where.

The single-most missing link in knife courses, is the lack of knife ground fighting.
The single-most missing link in stick courses is stick ground fighting.

Today's most, modern UFC style of fighting doctrine destroys the old Brazalian wrestling doctrine mode and is really a great labroatory for study and research.

Hock




VicMackey

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Re: How much grappling?
« Reply #2 on: March 30, 2008, 11:46:17 AM »

I balance it with my striking although I use it more to help me get back to my feet. But there is a separate session where I just do grappling not only for the skill building but also for the appreciation of the art. my grappling usually comes from jujitsu, law enforcement DT, wrestling, and FMA.
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oz man

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Re: How much grappling?
« Reply #3 on: March 30, 2008, 11:25:18 PM »

Whichever way you approach it, the aim should always be to get back on your feet. Someone will no doubt be able to correct me if im wrong but i believe that around 80% of fairdinkum fights end up with either or both people fighting from the ground. (assuming a one on one situation). Whether its from being knocked over, tripped/thrown by opponent or objects like gutters, chairs/tables, it does become a likely situation.

Embarassingly enough i once tripped over my own feet trying to evade a heavy kick while sparring and ended up on my back with a standing opponent. The leg takedown of hooking behind their ankle and pushing through their knee was ideal for the situation and a technique that is a vital part of anyones arsenal, because if i wasnt sparring it was the only thing that saved my arse, or more importantly my head!!

I've never really been interested in the more ground orientated styles like bjj, but like most styles they have their parts that cannot be denied in the big scheme of things, and as we all know play a vital role.

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grlaun

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Re: How much grappling?
« Reply #4 on: March 31, 2008, 05:39:08 AM »

I hate the ground.

That doesn't change the fact that it is a reality and needs to be trained for.  Seeing as being on the ground is on my top 5 things to despise I approach that area with a specific mentality:

1)  How to prevent going to the ground
2) Counters and reversals to enable me to get up off the ground
3) Kicks, strikes and as many dirty tricks as I can find to prevent a wrestling match as most people are bigger than I am and I want to get off the ground.
4) Limit the amount of BJJ, Submission wrestling, etc. tactics that keep me on the ground
5) Maneuverability standing & on the ground to keep me on my feet
6)  Agressiveness that disuades the average attacker to not get too close or get off me quick

Hock's materials, Jim McCaan's and Nick Hughes all work in this manner so I get anything that comes out regarding this area from these sources.  I do have many other grappling resources but they are all sport oriented despite thier 'combat' name.
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Jason

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Re: How much grappling?
« Reply #5 on: March 31, 2008, 06:00:48 AM »



         Brenda,

                 I have to admit, I was one that fell into the big grappling craze in the mid 90's. It's fun to train, and an excellent workout. However, I found myself lulled into a false sense of security, actually wanting to go to the ground. After a few at work situations that wound up on the ground, I realized that it wasn't as safe and warm as the mats in the dojo. So, now I train survival tactics with the goal of getting back up again. In answer to your question, I would recommend giving ground training enough  time that you or your student takes to grasp that concept, and stay proficient at it.. It takes good training partners as you have to work with people that will "yield" to the fact that that eye gouge, or groin shot would have definitely weakened their grasp to enable you to escape/gain the upper hand.

        Jason
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jpmbujutsu

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Re: How much grappling?
« Reply #6 on: March 31, 2008, 09:03:04 AM »

Training with many Ground fighting  experts whether it be seminars or DVD's, more often then not usually reveals they rely upon extremely complicated tournament or sport techniques and will never be used by either the attacker or the person defending themselves.

When the fight hits the ground there are no tournament rules or referees. The attacker is often motivated and armed. Even if you are skilled enough to gain a submission hold there is little nothing you can do to prevent the attacker from pulling a weapon and using it.

Let’s not forget the trained NHB fighters who know how to put you down with nasty and painful submission holds. Once they get you into one of their holds, you’re completely helpless… and… in the street, you’ll be unconscious or dead.

You need Ground fighting which is a real world comprehensive study of what goes down on the street when the fight hits the ground.

Although Grappling and Mixed Martial Arts are extremely useful for self-defense. The problem lies in where is that line.  That fine line between sport & street.
When does the sport aspect of grappling & MMA actually endanger our lives on the street?
The Who? Who are we fighting? Our uncle, brother, a mugger, a gang of attackers?
The What? What do they want? What do you want?
The Where? Where are we? In a bar, in a parking lot, in the mountains or on the beach?
The Why? Why are you fighting have you been attacked? Are trying to stop a fight?

Here is a true story. A guy I know who shall remain nameless is atop notch grappler.
He was young and was hanging out in a bar. He got into an altercation. So he decided to takedown the guy, which he did successfully, got to his opponents back put him in a rear naked choke and woke up in the hospital. See he forgot the who, what where, & why he was in a fight. He did a masterful job of executing what he set out to do. The disconnect was that he was in a street fight and did not address the fact that the guy he got into a fight with had friends. So when he got behind his opponent to choke him one of his buddies ran over and skull stomped him. The who, what where, & why are very important questions to be addressed. With that being said you have the guys on the exact opposite side of the coin who only train for the so-called street. They do not spar or roll around and understand what it really takes to move somebody off of them or what it is like to get hit and choked. But the guy who rolls everyday does and is better prepared to handle it. You need to find a happy mix between the two.
You have to “Bridge the gap between sport & street.”
Which is what I try to do.
 

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grlaun

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Re: How much grappling?
« Reply #7 on: March 31, 2008, 11:03:50 AM »

and you do a DAMN fine job too.
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whitewolf

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Re: How much grappling?
« Reply #8 on: March 31, 2008, 12:35:15 PM »

Good story-and very very true-their is not a referee around when it is real-I recommend IMHO that you learn how to avoid going to the ground at all costs-If you have ever seen a street alterncation where the guy on top drives his fist into the face of the one on his back you will understand-in addition if this guy is attacking you and he really wants to  hurt you he will not stop and if you go to  the ground underneath and he is 180-200 lbs or more you are in trouble-i was shown at one time that when training you should start on the ground and learn to get up instead of going to the ground at the start and then attempting to stand. Take heed in what Hock posted. I would also train to get what i call a animals attitude so that you not only defend but turn into the attacker. You always can tell the police that you were in defense of you life after you blinded the attacker..
stay  safe  whitewolf (el lobo blanco)..
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whitewolf

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Re: How much grappling?
« Reply #9 on: March 31, 2008, 03:14:53 PM »

BK-ok i reread the posts-i just got off 12 hours work so ill pass on some more that i should have said before-First yes its good to learn how to survive on the ground (you note i  said survive)-training on the ground should be reviewed so you feel comfortable in a unknown area (not standing)-get a instructor who will help you learn to incapacitate the opponent so you can get up-how about practising by putting a tight skirt on over your work out clothes and see how it changes the action-blind fold yourself and practise defenses-tie one hand to your side and then fight him off-(that one is a real workout)
learn the mental aspect of the fight and how to Never Never Give up-hope this is a little better-whtewolf.
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Joe Hubbard

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Re: How much grappling?
« Reply #10 on: March 31, 2008, 07:28:55 PM »

What is the “Big Picture” in terms of Ground Fighting?  How about Top & Bottom reference points?  That’s a pretty good place to start.  From there, we could introduce various combinations of this to apply to your combat scenarios, such as:
   Standing Vs. Knee-High
   Knee-High Vs. Standing
   Standing Vs. Supine
   Supine Vs. Standing
   Knee-High Vs. Supine
   Supine Vs. Knee-High
With that in mind, we now want to explore the most common positions that belong to all combat proven ground systems.  It’s pretty simple; everything is really a stylistic variation of 4 positional reference points.  These would be categorised as:
   Mount
   Guard
   Cross Side
   North & South
Beyond that, we would then assign the various Top & Bottom reference combinations to these positions and that folks is about ten years of positional ground study in a nut shell for all ground related systems!

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Now that the big picture is established, you’ll want to figure out the best possible strategy from each one of these grounded positions, which in a street fight will predominately be, to get back to your feet and finish the deal.  For instance, if you are in a top reference position, getting to your feet is easier than if you are on the bottom, but nevertheless, many who are seduced by endless grappling flow drills and submission chains tend to lose their way and regardless of being in a propitious top reference position, they end up being as pinned to the ground as the guy in the bottom position is; leaving themselves wide open for a third party attacker to “Go Postal” on them.  So with that mindset established, we need some scenarios that will encourage neutralising the threat and getting back to our feet.
   From the Mount (supine) position, the most important thing to do is get the guy off of you and create space, not to roll into his guard.
   From the Guard (supine) position it is to reverse the opponent into the mount and then finish him.
   From the Cross Side (supine) position it is to get into the guard (supine) and reverse the adversary from there.
   From the North/South position (supine) it is to get back to Knee-High position.


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« Last Edit: March 31, 2008, 07:33:13 PM by Joe Hubbard »
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whitewolf

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Re: How much grappling?
« Reply #11 on: March 31, 2008, 11:26:48 PM »

BK-more good posts-you will notice that as they state-it is easy to gt into the grappling mode -one has to reolize at the outset of the training that the object is to relieve yourself from the grasp standing/sitting/kneeling/on the ground: Here is a good training idea=it has been passed on before in other posts.  Sit back to  back-when the instructor says GO-you both turn and without not getting up past knees attempt to pin the other.Once the pin has been accomplished punch (50% power)=OK now you did that try the same (as i previously mentioned) using one arm only (simulated you were hurt going to the floor)=Even if you are pinned each  time using one arm start thinking ahead-how do i get out of this? Same principle as grappling but you are now thinking how to survive.
Lastly no matter how much  one has skills it is good to  train with someone who has been out in the streets and survived-whitewolf (el lobo  blanco)
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theardri

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Re: How much grappling?
« Reply #12 on: April 01, 2008, 04:59:50 AM »

Recently I began to introduce some BJJ and MMA style Pankration into my regime. My Combatives instructor back home had suggested BJJ as he knew Milwaukee was not “filthy” with options. I’ve also added some Krav but obviously not for grappling.

I train with a partner in what I learned back in NZ (so Phase one Combatives ala Todd) several nights a week, then I go to three Krav classes a week and one no uniform BJJ class. I’m considerably older (ten years (I am 35)) than the rest of the class, but still can keep up, though the amount of caffeine I need to keep up with them has increased ;)

For me it’s taught me how a grappler thinks, and hopefully will help me avoid playing THEIR game. Wit the increase in the last decade of people worshipping MMA, more idjiots learn to grapple, but almost none of them learn how to actually fight to win.


Hello,

Just wondering...
How much grappling do you do?
What kind of grappling...BJJ, MMA, Ground/Pound, Judo?

I find this to be my weak area/range. So I have dedicated more time to improving it the last year or so.

I know the ground is not the place one wants to be if ever confronted but I do think its important to learn/have good escape technique and an understanding of what it feels like to carry someone's weight...in order NOT to panic when you find yourself on the ground. Plus BJJ and submission fighting are great for learning sensitivity.

Anyway, looking forward to reading what others train and is it part of your daily workouts.

Thanks,
Brenda



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juszczec

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Re: How much grappling?
« Reply #13 on: April 01, 2008, 09:28:32 AM »

Just wondering...
How much grappling do you do?

1 day drills with compliant/semi compliant partner

1 day rolling with actively resisting partner.

Option to mix striking into either day.

Quote
What kind of grappling...BJJ, MMA, Ground/Pound, Judo?

Technically its the judo/bjj/wrestling/jujutsu I've picked up over the years.  I jokingly call it Polish Jujutsu - I'm Polish, so tell the PC police I can make that kind of joke  ;D

Basically, I want to know/teach the different ways the joints DON'T move and come up with ways  to make them move that way.

Quote
I find this to be my weak area/range. So I have dedicated more time to improving it the last year or so.

I'm in a different boat.  About a year ago, my guys convinced me to let them mix striking and grappling together.  We had been keeping them separate, but everyone was skillful enough to get away with it so we did.  In the last few weeks, I found myself in a training situation where I ABSOLUTELY COULD NOT take stuff to the ground.  It slowed me up just enough that I'm personally going to switch between periods of mixing striking/grappling and periods of doing them separately.

Quote
Plus BJJ and submission fighting are great for learning sensitivity.

Actually, I think they are easier for learning sensitivity.  You are making somekind of body contact and can get instant feedback about what they are doing.  Contrast that with striking.

Mark

bk

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Re: How much grappling?
« Reply #14 on: April 02, 2008, 07:55:31 AM »

Hi,

Thanks all for a great discussion. I appreciate your thoughts and suggestion.
Ground grappling/fighting is usually the most difficult range for smaller folks. Thats why I devote a lot of time to it. Its the one range where I suck.

I am pretty good at stand-up and weapons but the ground is difficult.

I do train many of the aspects mentioned. I enjoy the challenges of both grappling and striking when on the ground. I am improving over time and I am feeling more confident and getting stronger with better technique.

I enjoy the conversation(s) on this forum,
Brenda
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Martin25

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Re: How much grappling?
« Reply #15 on: April 07, 2008, 09:23:20 AM »

I have looked at this area  for a couple of years have to  I admit that I don't know very much though.
 I have found the following;
The danger of the sport mentality.
Dealing with a weapon changes everything.
The need to practice staying on my feet and getting in very quick nasty hits to vulnerable areas.
Two versus one on the ground will most likely result in a defeat for the individual.
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Martin

whitewolf

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Re: How much grappling?
« Reply #16 on: April 07, 2008, 11:18:56 PM »

BK-qustion did you try the training yet with one hand tied yet? I think Hock  has information on being attacked in a car also-chedk that out too-
Also look at my posts on "Word" for the mental picture which is needed also.-on the ground and standing==whitewolf (el lobo blanco)
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