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[Bryant]

One of my old aikido instructors dedicates an entire portion of his training sessions to "back grabs", basically , someone grabs you from behind while standing and you have to escape from the hold, it's done round robin with one person in the middle and everyone takes turns putting the person in a hold of some sort. If the person can prevent you from fully applying the hold that's great, if not you have to find a way to escape, simulated strikes and low power strikes are allowed in order to soften the hold. the student must finish with some sort of take down or throw (it was an aikido class). Do any of you guys do anything similar to this?

examples of attacks
Rear Bear Hug
Half Nelson
Full Nelson
Rear two handed Choke
Hair Grab
Belt Grab
Double shoulder
Double elbow
Double wrist
etc...

[Nick Hughes]

Is that a trick question?   

Nick

[JimH]

Yes, we do them ALL.

Here is a method to defend against attacks from the rear,especially rush Grabs/tackles.

Many schools teach to drop both legs out from the center to get better stabilized position.

Instead of both legs stepping out equally from the center,(still absorbing the push forward),step off center to the left or the right,causing the push to turn you slightly allowing the opponents force to travel by ,or enough ,to give you balance disruption of Him/Her to do a technique or strike.

I find a quick shift/step to my left  while rotating my right arm down,rearward and up(circular move) is usually enough to send the aggressive attacker,trying  for a grab or hold, flying.

Responses to Rear Grabs must be Immediate or they/the attacker will drive/carry you forward and down.

[Hock]

I know you are asking everyone and probably know this, but in our Level 10 test, these are the requirements. The first 9 levels prepare the practitioner to deal with the problems.

++++++++++++++++

UC Level 10 Task Group 6) Combat Scenarios Vs Grabs
Fight as realistically as possible, these 28 combat scenarios vs. various grabs

   5 Combat scenarios vs. single-handed grabs
      * 1 on the ground
      * 1 shoved against a wall
                         *  Any other 3


   5 Combat scenarios versus double-handed grabs
      * 2 on the ground
      * 1 shoved against a wall
                          * Any other 2

   5 Combat scenarios versus tackles/grabs

   3 Combat scenarios versus font bear hugs

   3 Combat scenarios versus rear bear hugs

             3 Combat scenarios versus kicks

   4 Combat scenarios seated versus standing attackers.


UC Level 10 Task Group 15 Combat Scenarios Vs. Chokes and Headlocks
Fight as realistically as possible, 15 combat scenarios vs. Chokes, Neck Cranks and Head locks

   5 Combat scenarios versus one-handed, front chokes. The other hand attacks
      * 2 of these combat scenarios on the ground
      * 1 scenario shoved against a wall

   5 Combat scenarios versus double-handed frontal chokes
      * 2 of these on the ground,
      * 1 shoved against a wall

   5 Combat scenarios versus rear chokes
      * 2 on the ground,
      * 1 shoved face first against a wall

[cfadeftac]

Bryant,

In my old Kempo class every second week or so the instructor would have the class line up behind one guy and then attack with any rear grab they liked (one at a time of course), this would carry on until the student failed to escape and then the next person in line would take his spot.  We were allowed to pick up and even tackle the guy, really there were no rules and every student went as hard as they thought the guy being attacked could take without injury.

Andrew

[whitewolf]

Andrew-sounds good to  me-white wolf  (el lobo Blanco)

[theardri]

One of my old aikido instructors dedicates an entire portion of his training sessions to "back grabs", basically , someone grabs you from behind while standing and you have to escape from the hold, it's done round robin with one person in the middle and everyone takes turns putting the person in a hold of some sort. If the person can prevent you from fully applying the hold that's great, if not you have to find a way to escape, simulated strikes and low power strikes are allowed in order to soften the hold. the student must finish with some sort of take down or throw (it was an aikido class). Do any of you guys do anything similar to this?

examples of attacks
Rear Bear Hug
Half Nelson
Full Nelson
Rear two handed Choke
Hair Grab
Belt Grab
Double shoulder
Double elbow
Double wrist
etc...

Oh yes! This was a major part of my Combatives classes! It was always the most fun part too, because as you got more confident with partners it became a game to see who would "win"

[Hock]

and we have the age old problem...

the age old problem that Force-on-Force training and proponents always have...and perhaps the single most misunderstood aspect of Force-on Force training....

You really can't do to your training partner, what actually would shock, stun, or knock out a real opponent, and would actually help you win the situation.

Inexperienced instructors let the scenarios degrade into wrestling matches, because while trying to be all 'Force-on-Forcey-like," the simulated, vital strikes are easily and often ignored by the busy trainer while attacking, then wrestling becomes the only option.

It is such a thin tightrope to oversee and coach. In a perfect world, a coach oversees each scenario and essentialy should evalaute it and declare possible knock-out blows, winning moves etc.

Without some acting on the part of the bad guy, the good guy never trains the actual steps that would help him.

Universally we are all such bad actors when we do these things. (As Joe Hubbard says, like actors in a sex film, without the sex.) This is the cause of much misunderstanding and criticism. I ask the bad guys to act conservatively when hit, stabbed or shot, but not ignore good strikes.

Conservative acting in scenarios is mandatory and pivital when training people to react in scenarios.

This approach coupled with some serious sparring (once again a thin tightrope to oversee) can really help develop folks.

Hock

[JimH]

Hock I agree,
the Attacker must act as an attacker,Verbal and Physical acts must be believable.
The victim needsmto respond accordingly with immedaite response to the threat.
The Attacker must give appropriate responses to the strikes delivered by the Victim.
Yes it does require a knowledge of body responses to strikes and a level of Stuntman type acting but it is a Replicable Method of specific Scenarios and resposnes.
(Also if the attacker can get into the Role of Violent Aggressive Attack it tends tohelp people learn to flip the switch toa fight type mindset)

[lakerssportsfan]

the age old problem that Force-on-Force training and proponents always have...and perhaps the single most misunderstood aspect of Force-on Force training....

You really can't do to your training partner, what actually would shock, stun, or knock out a real opponent, and would actually help you win the situation.

Inexperienced instructors let the scenarios degrade into wrestling matches, because while trying to be all 'Force-on-Forcey-like," the simulated, vital strikes are easily and often ignored by the busy trainer while attacking, then wrestling becomes the only option.

Excellent point!

I think the big problem is not to overreact to simulated strikes or underreact.

[Hock]

Yes, not over act!
It needs to be conservative. Reacting on the "lessor side," than over-reacting which leads to a false expectations. (and again, we are all such bad actors this is tough)

I think every trainer should cuss and yell when attacking with scenarios, as much as possible. More acting! It is odd that acting in needed in reality training.

Hock

[loyalonehk]

So you're not looking for the "No Touch Knock Out" response...  Hmmm   

(Couldn't resist)   

[cfadeftac]

I found the repetitive nature of the drill with one attacker after another grabbing you was a pretty good way of making certain responses automatic.  The defense we used to avoid being picked up by a rear bearhug actually worked for me live when I was attacked by a guy at a party who with no provocation and no verbal just grabbed me from behind and  picked me up in the air.  The first part of the defense worked like a charm whereas the second part with elbows and a throw, well we never made it there since we ended up on the ground in a scramble.

Andrew

[Joe Hubbard]

You really need to explore the "early phase" counters to some of these hold/grabs.  A lot of systems show all these over complicated "late phase" counters to things like a full-nelson- you just got to ask yourself, why were you so unaware that you got snared in that hold with zero awareness in the first place?

Out

Joe

[cfadeftac]

As an interesting aside I have been attacked twice where there was no warning, both times I was a teenage loner and from talking to people afterwards both times it was just to see how many times they could hit the little guy, in both cases I think my basic martial arts training worked fine.  As well I know an instructor locally who has been in a few scraps and he feels that in a stand up fight or where there is warning that boxing and combatives is a great mix, but that when there is no warning that (he was attacked by a large man in a grocery store who was just looking for someone to attack) his Tai Chi always came through.

I am wondering if other people find that they are able to access more of their skills when completely caught off guard compared to starting in an interview situation?

I have talked my way out of a few assaults/muggings and must admit I was always nervous that I would not be able to access my skills if these situations kicked off, whereas in both cases without warning I seemed to take control of the situation rather easily (possibly because they were both shocked that they failed).

Andrew

PS Sorry to go sideways

[Bri Thai]

Great thread.

To my mind the problem of "under acting" (i.e. the trainer not reacting appropriately to the strikes) is not as bad as the problem of over acting.


OK, if he under acts..... so what?  The scenario may not follow a realistic pattern, but you still get the stimulus and still get to practive the move.  It's even done in a worse case scenario manner, so all is not lost.

But over acting?  Things can get ridiculous.  That is where we do, indeed, develop magic no touch nonsense.  On a lesser scale harm is still done.  If you are used to people falling over, what happens when they don't?  And, of course, they subconciously fall over more easily as time goes on, without even realising it.

I know of otherwise great arts that are failing in that sense, and they can't even bear to listen to reason.

[lakerssportsfan]

I agree with Brithai.  Overacting is much worse.

[JimH]

We run a drill in which one person ,a potential victim ,stands in the middle of the floor,or next to a wall.

The Potential Victim closes their eyes,people form around  the Victim:
One or more people MAY BE Assigned to Attack
One or More attackers maybe Armed.
a weapon may be deployed at any time in a verbal or physical confrontation.
Maybe NO ONE Attacks.

The Potential Victim opens their eyes,this simulates having been unware of a potential problem developing around you, and the situation runs its course.

The Victim maybe attacked or not
One or more Attackers may confront,verbally into physically,Verbally only or physically only.
One or more may present a knife or Pistol and make a threat
One or more may just rush to stab/slash
The Group may just walk by and brush the potential Victim no confrontation.

The attack can be close or far,known or unknown.

You must have immediate action drills/responses

I agree with Joe,
One needs to develop Early/Surprise attack responses over Late Phase/Developing attacks which should have been seen and or dealt with before they grew into some kind of hold.

[whitewolf]

All-I agree with you guys-to add a little- If one waits till the attack has gotten to the hurt phase it is probably too late as the preditor is in the phase of going out full force and you are now trying to defend--so it is paramount when confronted you act in some manner to defuse the situation by a-knocking them out b-get the hell out of  dodge=
i am asuming in this that you all ready tried to defuse the situation as we have disscussed before in other posts i.e. violent person at a work  place..where you have tied the calming approach. Although i have pro bably not been in as many atacks as some of you out there i do know that from how i  have been attacked and how i  have been envolved in as either a spectator or private PO/Security Officer many of the altercations were over in 5-10 seconds when the person struck fell to the ground/or started bleeding from nose/mouth a great deal and could not continue and the striker won the battle. Maybe drunks roll around alot and neither get hurt but the fights on the street i have seen are quick hard and deadly -fast.. So- to get back on track we should train for surprise attacks all the time with the attacker being "conservative as Hock states"-i am firn believe that will train your muscle memory to jump in and save your ass.
whitewolf (el lobo blanco)

[Hock]

The "attack world" is broken down into two pieces.

Interview or Ambush.

By interview I mean that it could be any stand-off contact with or without words (usually with words) and these words could also be froma  whisper to insane yelling. BUT there is still some kind of assessment or "interview" in progres.

An ambush is by complete surprise or by somewhat surpising sudden rush. The greatest armies in the world have been defeated by ambush.

On any given day, anyone of may react differently to these two problems. Mental and phsycial training hopes to corral these responses. 

Doctrine! Doctrine! Doctrine! It defines and refines the training. Is the "How" you will be attacked in my 12 Step Primer Program.

Hock 

[whitewolf]

Hock-thanks-whitewolf  el lobo blanco

[JimH]

In an Ambush/Immediate attackscenario we see ,and QUICKLY find what does and does not work,what is and is not Immediately usable.

The Ambush has the attacker on us fast,in our face,(how ever they got there) up close and personal.

We find that if they are on us,(through failure of awareness most tiems)
we do not have the choice to avoid
we may have limited verbal dialogue
we will most likely be right in the contact/fight
Contact will be close so many things we rely on at distance will not be an option/s
We must RECOGNIZE the threat and act Immediately (preempt over React to the attackers assault)
we must Train,work and develop the tools that work best for us in that Range
(More so than at distance,as distance gives time,shorten the distance decrease the response time available)

In My Opinion Ambush styled attacks need More training and dedication to finding workable usable tools.

[oz man]

Great post guys,

because the nature of these things is so predictably unpredictable, early and late phase counters are both vital tools. Obviously we prefer early if we are allowed the chance, as whitewolf said, if you are trying late phase stuff the attacker is already so heavily committed to the attack, his force/momentum/strength only increases.

As for the acting, i have seen students that have been training these tech's back and forth with a partner and acting out the reactions so much that they start preempting the reaction. They actually start falling before they are taken down............

Hock, i remember a story you told us at a camp here in oz some years back, about a policeman that had been training handgun disarms with a buddy and when the real thing happened on the street, he disarmed a guy and then handed the gun back to him for "his turn".!!

That repetitive back and forth training and acting out of responses should be carefully monitored and broken up to avoid those sorts of things.

Reality training supported by acting.....?! Doesn't sound quite right does it boys.
But if underacted but still present it can definitely help.