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[mleone]

This may or may not fit the congress. But Ill throw it out there anyways!


It may not fit the congresss at all but here goes.

How about a Knife anatomy Home study course? A reading and quiz and submission of information.


2nd
A gun safety home study course, Learning about Gun safety. A reading a quiz and submission of info.

It may not fit the bill but I figured Id throw it out there!

[Bujinkandas]

I like the anatomy course idea.  I think it should be for the knife and for hand to hand.  I believe that all fighters should no the best place to deliver a technique and what theat technique will do to the body. 

[mleone]

Knife can be broken into 2 parts.
System targets, targets that are vital
and structured targets that cause damage but non lethal.

[Kaliman33]

i like the knife anatomy idea, what actions happen when you cut cetian parts of the body, etc

[Hock]

That would be pretty technical and I don't know how long such a home study would be.

Maybe from a medical source?

Generally I would suggest cutting or stabbing the closest thing to you (and that might not be the best target either, just handy) I know that is not too technical and not very intellectually satisfying.

Hock

[Adventure]

I have friends in the M.E.s office I could find out if they have any info (or where to get such info) on the most deadly or dangerous cuts stabs or such, but then is there not a Tac-Medic on the forum.


David

[Nick Hughes]

Just a few thoughts...there's already a pretty detailed section in "Kill or Get Killed" about target areas of the knife and bleed out times etc.

Sayoc kali guys also do an excellent breakdown on their number 3 template DVD which goes into cause and effect i.e. cut the carotid and neck muscles (sterno something or other if memory serves from my weight training days) how the head will actually fall over on that side and how his hands will grab certain places depending on where you cut him etc.  They've also found that a lot of people don't feel slashes if a blade is sharp but will react to being poked by the point, which makes sense.

Re the gat...There's a slew of those already on the market...might be a case of reinventing the wheel.

N

[mleone]

Lets not look at templates vs targets.
Its for anatomy not template based.
Not attack based but study based.

Im sure if some one submits the homestudy with a processing fee.
That would make sense

[Trembula]

Also, please remember that the timetables of death in many of the older books are bad guesses at best. Unless someone is going to do Nazi-type experiments of adrenalized, determined attackers and actually kill the test subjects, you'll never be able to get past the bad guess stage.

Everyone here has probably heard about the Miami Massacre or other famous instances of people who recieved injuries that should of been almost immediately fatal, but they fight on, maybe they live, maybe they die, but lots of times the guy getting shot/stabbed hasn't read the anatomy book or the ballistics tests.

As Hock has said at several seminars, some folks are just built a little different. There is an extremely rare condition where the heart is on the wrong side of the chest. Or maybe they have scar tissue, dense muscle, or that vein or nerve you are targeting ain't where the anatomy chart said it was. Maybe they have lots of blubber and your four inch knife doesn't even stab past it when you execute your number five thrust to the gut. Maybe you are facing some big boned good ol' boy and the .45ACP slugs you are shooting at him feel to him like .25ACP would to someone your own size...

A knowledge of anatomy though is a useful thing, for it will make you better at both healing and hurting. Get with a physical therapist, sports trainer, orthopedic surgeon and together with their knowledge and your own common sense experience, learn what MIGHT happen when the muscular-skeletal system is dynamically altered  . Get with a trauma surgeon, experienced combat Corpsman, Paramedics, etc. and pick their brains for annecdotal and clinical evidence of how fast bleedouts occur and the level of incapacitation from the injuries they have seen. Watch those horrendous Discovery Health channel programs where the subject is "World's most devestating injuries".

Dan

[Nick Hughes]

Sorry for any confusion y'all (see de prof...I am's picking up the vernacular of you southerners)

I wa only pointing out it had been done...I didn't say it had been done well or that the charts in KOGK were accurate etc.  In defense of the template - having spoken with Ray Dianaldo about it - there not saying stand in front and start doing this and he's going to stand there and wait for you.  It's more educational and you can take bits out of it i.e. if he moves here you could do this, but if he did this instead, then you could do that.

I've done the same thing in karate.  One drill for close in stuff I do involves a deceptive approach, slapping both ears, immediately sticking your thumbs in his eyes, tilting his head, sticking a headbutt on his beak, kneeing his balls, then doing the head twist takedown.  I would hope no one would be standing after the ear slap but it teaches possible sequences and what you can follow up with if the first technique doesn't work etc.

I also did a post about assassination attempts with knives for a body guard course I was guest teaching on.  A bunch of victims survived because the assailant had missed a vital spot by centimetres.  The ones that didn't survive got tagged right where they were supposed to.

(I'll mention them here if anyone is interested.)

So, no argument from me about charts and or accuracy or the durability of humans under stress etc.  I'm living proof, ran round for four hours after having a lung collapse from being stabbed.  There are absolutely NO guarantees in any of what we do.

PS:  Really love Hock's analogy about plays on the football field and how they're all supposed to be touchdowns which sums this topic up pretty well.  I'm going to unashamedly pinch it and use it at my seminars Hock - with proper mention of the source of course.

[pbowling]

I've been in Trauma and Emergency Medicine since 1968 as a EMT, Paramedic and finally as a Physician Assistant for the past 26 years.  During that time I've seen wound that should not kill take a life almost instantly and wounds that should be fatal need not much more than a band-aid.  As Dan says it depends on lots of factors.  I have photos of large kitchen knives in the back that did not penetrate the chest cavity and small "pen" knives penetrate the heart.  One police officer tripped and fell forward as he was shot from the back, the bullet went in just above his anus and traveled through the abdomen to the chest and hit the aorta - pretty much instantly fatal.  A .22 cal bullet shot into the head of a drug dealer which bounced around and should have been fatal -- the patient was in a coma for a couple of weeks , two months later he was out of the hospital and walking as nothing happened.
The most predictable wounds are lacerations.  If you cut a tendon it "ain't" gonna work!  When I see lacerations, especially transverse laceratiions to the hand and forearm, I'm very suspecious of tendon injuries. 

[Rawhide]

We already got an internet study course right here:

Sayoc kali guys also do an excellent breakdown on their number 3 template DVD which goes into cause and effect i.e. cut the carotid and neck muscles

Beware the templete.
2 Quick Reasons

Reason 1) Bodies move instantly
Your number 3 target is gone after stabbing your number 1 target, or slashing 9 to 6. Bodies move after being stabbed and slashed. Now, if the templete was based solely on learning knife manipulation? It is as good as any solo command and mastery drill you'll find here or anywhere. But when they try to sell it is an attack pattern directly related to and predicting victim wounds? Sorry. It is sham. Problem is? People move, especially after being cut or stabbing.

Reason 2) When you work this templete they demand that your other free hand drop dead and dormant by your side. This creates HORRIBLE muscle memory. Did I say HORRIBLE! They claim, "Stop swatting at flies (ho-ho) we'll have plenty for that arm to do later. " It may well be too late. Imagine telling a boxer to practice a jab hundreds and hundreds of times, while ordering them to drop their cross arm down dead while jabbing.  After a short while, when you jab? Your other arm will drop. (This too is the curse of many karate systems who insist on carrying their other fist on their hip)

My basic summary.
1) People bleed.
2) Everybody may bleed out faster or slower than expected. Overkill needed.
3) Knife cuts a main line. People bleed pretty good.
4) Man see his own blood? Man often scream. Heart beat faster. More blood.
5) Knife in eye? Bad.
6) Knife in heart? Bad.
7) Knife cut Muscle? Bad
Knife cut neck? Bad
9) Cothing gets in way? make clothing red.
10) Tommy Lee Jones Old and Ugly. Electra? Delicious

Doc Hock

Remember that its supposed to simpler not more complicated.  I just need to know where U need to strike to kill someone on the front, side and back of the body and where the none lethal targets are.  Nothing too complicated.  Most of us martial artists are not Phds (excluding de Professor ) and our brain capacities are not designed for a great amount of technical information.  Just learning to beat someone up is quite enough.

[usks1]

I agree with Jeff.

Simpler the better. I know if I hit a guy in the throat it is bad, if I slash or stab the throat it is worse.
I know a man has main pumpin lines running from his brain thru his neck, on the inside of each arm, down the inside of each leg.... I know if I penetrate deep enough there are a lot of vital organs that are gonna get damaged... I know a knife on / in or around my body is bad, so same goes for the bad guy.

Here is how one of my students and I did a little knife research this year.

We went deer hunting. We bagged the deer, took them to his garage, and hung em, skinned em, quartered em, and then cut em up.

Want to know how a knife cuts flesh, then cut flesh. We also did lots of experimenting on the torso carcass while it was hanging..

 - did some thrusting with the blade sideways to go thru the ribs. worked o.k. if you were accurate.
 - did some thrusting with the blade vertical to see if the ribs would stop it.. Nope, went right through no problem.
 - did some thrusting to see how deep we had to go to hit vitals... about half a blade on a 6 inch knife and we were into good stuff.
 - found out 1 slash opened up the stomach lining, and the goods hit the floor.

We made a mess, but we did our own little "myth busting" session, and tested some ideas. Granted anatomically a deer and a human are different.. They just haven't opened a hunting season on people yet..:-) ( just kidding )... But you get the idea. We have to work with what we have available.

This may not be for everybody, but it worked for me.

Keep up the hard training

Dean.

[Trembula]

"Back in the day" (and present in some areas of the country), most men had at least a modicum of experience in killing and dressing out game. I find it sadly humorous when someone says that they are prepared to use a knife or gun in self-defense but cannot stomach the thought of butchering even a cute little bunny rabbit, let alone something in the medium-to-large game size. Personally, I see that experience as an important part of the endless cycle of life and death in our universe and a valuable step towards preparing oneself for the eventuality of having to take another human being's life. The hunter is able to see the effect of his bullet/arrow on his quarry and the smells and feel of the flesh and innards while dressing it out. And while I am typing on the podium pontificating, anyone who eats meat but can't stand hunting is a hypocrite.

Dan

[Hock]

7) Knife cut Muscle? Bad
Knife cut neck? Bad
9) Cothing gets in way? make clothing red.
10) Tommy Lee Jones Old and Ugly. Electra? Delicious

I can't seem to get rid of that smiley face on number 8. I have even re-typed the whole thing. There is no smiley face significance to number 8. Technology gone wild.

The template thing and Dianaldo....
I will just suggest this...as a generalization of all systems of course...

Many times downline instructuctors have a bit more sense than system heads and creators. Many times these smarter people have to rationalize, explain away and in some cases cover up small-to-glaring, doctrinal errors in systems.

They rationalize their time and investment in certain systems etc. There are many times on record these smarter people have winked and shaken their heads and whisper "ahhh...that's not too real..." or "just do it..the technique will change in a minute." Or, some are happy in the floating state of semi-martial arts where they really don't care.

Me, I have grown into an old, cranky pain with zero tolerence for doctrine error. If something is wrong I fix it immediately. If its crooked I straighten it out.

Back to the templete. If it is openly described as solo training to learn knife manipulation? It is as good any other system. If it instead is described as teaching target acquistion in succession it is misleading. Ray may not do it this way, but many, many do, in many systems. This is an inherent problem with many if not most Filipino martial arts and striking systems.

When we hit the wooden war post it is about striking power and working the wrist, elbow, shoulder, body. Not about neck slashes or chest stabs.

The commandment:
"Its not about the target. Targets change. It is instead about working the weapon to hit any target."

Hock