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Author Topic: Chi-Sao  (Read 20949 times)

whitewolf

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Re: Chi-Sao
« Reply #30 on: April 30, 2008, 10:47:48 AM »

Bri-you asked why cracks in the MA world-i think it boils down to a  couple things.
1-$$$$$$$$$$$$
2-Ego
Myself I dont get envolved with folllowing the super MAs who can do  anything-I guess at my age and where I  have  been just  lets me take what i  think is good for me and put it in my tool  box
I have seen a few loud  mouths get their ass kicked royally after sounding off to the wrong person
It all boils down to reality and i guess who gets their the fastest with the mostest if you know what i  mean. white wolf (el lobo blanco)
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Bri Thai

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Re: Chi-Sao
« Reply #31 on: April 30, 2008, 04:09:48 PM »

Great post.

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Ed Stowers

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Re: Chi-Sao
« Reply #32 on: May 02, 2008, 10:18:33 AM »

I don't claim any skill at Chi Sao.  In fact, the only thing I claim to be an expert in is being me.  That said, I'll throw my two cents worth in on Chi Sao here.  I was introduced to it under a guy named Kimo Wong who taught it in Chinatown in downtown Honolulu, in some run-down building near King Street back in the mid-70s.  Yeah, I think Jack Lord was still filming Hawaii Five-O back then--it was a while back.  I think Kimo was one of James DeMile's students, and DeMile was one of Lee's original Jun Fan people.  Kimo was a little guy, but he hit really hard.  I watched the Chi Sao stuff being taught to more advanced students, though I was never really formally trained in it being the new slug in the class.  In those days, being a new student at the kwoon, I was usually already exhausted by the three hours of station-training "conditioning" that Kimo put us through.  I was far too tired after that to even move, much less learn advanced stuff.  So, what I say here is mostly my "impression" of Chi Sao and Wing Chun in general.

I am sure it has an application somewhere.  Kimo was very fast and could tie your arms up in a second when trapping.  Chi Sao seemed more esoteric, like Push Hands in Tai Chi--neat idea, but how do you use it?  But Wing Chun seemed to depend a great deal on straight-line blast attacks, which, considering it came from the boat docks of Canton, is not all that surprising.  It works fine if you can get in close and tie up the guys arms and punch him backwards so that he cannot recover.  It works against people not trained to deal with it.  Keep in mind, a master can do a lot more than the average joe, but even they get defeated at times (back in Texas we'd say "there ain't no horse that can't be rode, and there ain't no man who can't be throwed.")

It seems to me that once a trained opponent got outside of the straigtht blast angle and hit it from the flank, the Wing Chun practicioner had to reorient hsi centerline quickly or be at a serious disadvantage.  Hitting them 90 degrees to the blast really knocks them off balance, at least the lesser skilled ones.

In terms of martial "art," where this is a replicated traditional art of Hong Kong, I can buy it...sort of like how I can buy traditional Thai Dancing or Noh theater.  It is an art.  it isn't living, breathing spontaniety.  In terms of a combat science, it has its good points, but it doesn't cover the whole ball of wax by a long shot.  It is designed primarily for street fights using fists, more approrpaite for a duel than combat.  It is not meant to be an armed combat method.

Even so, I have serious reservations about some of what I was taught.  I remember being taught the Chung Choy punch, the one where you punch straight ahead with the bottom knuckles of the fist.  It works if you hit a soft enough target and use a whip-like snap rather than body weighted force.  But one time while experimenting with using that style of punching with a karate-style hip-twist, I easily broke my hand, even though it was encased in a padded glove.  The structure of striking with the bottom knuckles is just too weak for any real force to be used, and particularly dangerous if striking a hard target like the head (read-read my dislike for punching in general in other threads.  I have learned how to hurt myself pretty good with a closed fist).  Structurally, the karate-style punch is much stronger, but I still have reservations about striking my knuckles against hard surfaces a lot (as a guitarist, I really need to protect those hands, particularly the ability to articulate my finger joints.  Having broken metacarpals on each hand once when punching, I have decided to move away from that method of striking if possible).

I think in terms of "art," the circular style of Pa Kua is probably far more sophisticated than Wing Chun.  The footwork is certainly more impressive, and not as subject to being knocked off balance.  And I think because of its circular movement, it woudl give a Wing Chun man a tough opponent if two equal practicioners were matched.  At least as far as "arts" go.

But look at these words:  "matched."  That denotes a duel or sporting type of event.  This is where all of the arts get into trouble with combat.  Real combat is no sport.  You cheat as often and as hard as you can.  He takes a stance, you grab a bat.  He pulls a knife, you pull a gun.  Real criminals kills people every day like that with very little training, and sometimes they kill even highly trained sport fighters.  I think this is where we often get into confusion.  If we're talking art let's talk art; if we're talking combat, then it's a whole different game.  The wonderul thing about this forum is the attempt to bridge this gap.  But it remains very much an entrenched way of thinking, to talk about one while using the conditions of the other.

I liked Wing Chun.  It was fun.  But there is a reason it is not taught to SpecWar operators.  It takes too long to learn (there's a lesson there), it is too restrictive in its angles, and it doesn't work well with modern weapons.  It is about a "style," an "art," not victory at all costs.  Parts of it can be useful in less-than-lethal confrontations, but only if you have drilled in it a lot.  Necessary if you plan to teach the art; not as much for combat where such hours of drill on one thing is seldom needed.

Even Bruce Lee decided to get away from Wing Chun.  If I recall correctly, he was in a challenge fight (duel) with Wong Jack Man in his kwoon--the famous challenge where the sifus of San Francisco sent their top fighter to stop Bruce from teaching gung fu to non-Chinese (a fight the movie totally screwed up, by the way).  In the real fight, according to Lee's wife Linda, Wong Jack Man quickly began running away after having taken a few of Bruce's straight fist shots.  Bruce was then forced to chase him around the kwoon, and since he was using the Chung Choy style of punching used in Wing Chun, he ended up punching the back of Man's head as he ran away.  Not only was this not very effective, it hurt Bruce's hands as well.  I believe that is the moment of epiphany (read disillusionment) when Bruce began to away from Wing Chun as his primary art, even though he incorporated much of it into his "no style" JKD .  In that context, Chi Sao is just one page in a chapter called Wing Chun.  Neither of which is the whole novel.

All of the comments about Bill Cheung I find rather disturbing.  If he is going to teach Wing Chun, teach it as an art and let it be.  There's no need to go after the combat crowd.  Why do they always have to go for notorioety, the fast buck, and the latest fad?  Whatever happend to humility and manners in martial art masters?

I guess it's easier to have a philosophy than to live by it.

« Last Edit: May 02, 2008, 10:23:17 AM by Ed Stowers »
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whitewolf

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Re: Chi-Sao
« Reply #33 on: May 02, 2008, 10:57:38 AM »

Ed-excellent post-as a side note my wife and I were at the MC air station in Hawaii in the 70s-5 years to be exact-I took some lessons from some buddist monks while there-i cant remember the name of the location but it was half way down the highway leading into honalulu-what i rememebr most was the meditation time-(it killed my legs while sitting)
take care-whitewolf (el  lobo blanco)
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Bryant

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Re: Chi-Sao
« Reply #34 on: May 02, 2008, 11:53:38 AM »

Ed,

I'm stealing this...

 "there ain't no horse that can't be rode, and there ain't no man who can't be throwed."

B.

 ;D
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Joe Hubbard

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Re: Chi-Sao
« Reply #35 on: May 02, 2008, 12:23:52 PM »

Remember in the BIGGER picture Chi Sao only represents 1/4 (Forearms) of the sticking points that occur in a fight:
     
     - Hands
     - Forearms
     - Neck
     - Body

Block, Pass & Pin also falls into this Forearm range and much easier to pass on with less time involved.

Out

Joe

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Ed Stowers

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Re: Chi-Sao
« Reply #36 on: May 02, 2008, 01:50:21 PM »

Joe,

I really enjoyed the trapping aspects of wing chun, and the class was fun...well, outside of station training; that was just hard work and suffering.

Whitewolf, I assume you mean Kaneohe MCAS.  Beautiful bay there.  I was stationed at NAS Barber's Point at the time, flying in P-3s over on the other side of Oahu and drove over to Honolulu on Saturdays for the class.  Those were the days.  Surf.  Sand.  Chinese food at Wo Fat's.  Aikido at the Hoganji in Waipahu and Wing Chun in Chinatown.  Valerie Bertinelli and Linda Carter on TV. Pie and coffee at Anna Miller's at Pearl Ridge shopping plaza.  Deployments to the Philippines.   ::)Ah, if I could only go back in time.

I do miss the place, but I'll bet it's really developed now.

I still like traditional arts.  For example, I have recently become interested in Pa Kua and Chi Kung.  However, I am interested in them from a curiosity aspect, from the viewpoint of traditional art and health, not from a combat perspective.  I think there are simpler, easier, more efficient ways to train to fight that don't involve 20 years of studying strange, esoteric, highly detailed drills and patterns.  Traditional arts simply take too long to learn to apply in a practical manner.  But as a life long hobby they're great.  I just don't consider them my combat method.
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whitewolf

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Re: Chi-Sao
« Reply #37 on: May 02, 2008, 02:12:10 PM »

Ed-your thoughts bring back memories-after retiring there i was a store detective at Liberty housre-that turned out to be dangerous as hell-the shop lifters ran in packs-one pack had a Mother of the group try to run you over in the parking lot if you came out after the thiefs-one time down at wikiki store me and a shop lifter fell through a plate glassdoor while i detained him-as far as changes to alongpo it is now all tourist-almost no bars (can you believe that) we had some wild nights there comming back accross shit  river (at the time the city was the best kept secret in the far  east)-heheheh-I tok some self defense classes in the city of olongapo also-anyhow that was a long time ago-stay  safe  whitewolf (el  lobo blanco)
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gematriot

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Re: Chi-Sao
« Reply #38 on: May 02, 2008, 03:53:37 PM »

Dear Mr Stowers
I must admit that I was perplexed by your statement that the Chung Choy punch is structurally inferior to the Karate punch. Everything I have read, experienced up till now suggests just the opposite to me. I would like to hear more on the episode in which you broke your wrist, if you would take the time.
I also second your idea that pakua is far more “philosophically coherent” than wing chun and would be interested to know if you have seen anything by Dr. John Painter, (see the link below)?
http://www.ninedragonbaguazhang.com/welcome.html
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Bryant

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Re: Chi-Sao
« Reply #39 on: May 02, 2008, 05:33:33 PM »

If I were to study another traditional Chinese art with any level of seriousness it would probably be Baguazhang , it is an excellent and beautiful art. although not something I would pick if I wanted quick and easy to use self defense skills. Bagua is very deep both technically and philosophically. I studied Bagua for a year at Sifu Ray Ahles school in Bergen NJ , I enjoyed my lessons , it was just too far away (1.5 to 2 hour drive depending on traffic). If I could find a competent teacher in the south jersey area I would consider studying

B.
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bk

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Re: Chi-Sao
« Reply #40 on: May 03, 2008, 09:35:50 AM »

Quote
Remember in the BIGGER picture Chi Sao only represents 1/4 (Forearms) of the sticking points that occur in a fight:
     
     - Hands
     - Forearms
     - Neck
     - Body

Block, Pass & Pin also falls into this Forearm range and much easier to pass on with less time involved.

Out

Joe

Hi Joe,

Good post.

Hands = Chi Sao and "hand fighting" from greco roman with inserts, passes, strikes, arm drags..etc

Forarms= Hubad with all its inserts, passes, switchs, strikes, arm drags..etc

Neck = Muay Thai neck tie up drill with all its inserts, strikes, passes, arm drags...etc.

Body = Pummeling with all its inserts, locks, takedowns, strikes...etc.

Making them flow together for an intense "sticky" session.

Thanks,
BK
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Karl

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Re: Chi-Sao
« Reply #41 on: May 03, 2008, 09:57:23 PM »

Hi Joe and b_k,
I don't know anything about Chi-Sao.
I agree with you thou.

I look at it what comes to mind is the Hubbab drill with Inserts.
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Ed Stowers

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Re: Chi-Sao
« Reply #42 on: May 05, 2008, 09:56:03 AM »

Whitewolf,

No, I think you are bringing memories back to me.  I was talking about Oahu being overdeveloped, but now that you mention Olangapo, it really gets me thinking about those days.  Yeah, all I remember were bars out in town.  What an interesting place for a single 18 year old to be stationed in the 1970s.  We deployed to Cubi Point for 6 months at a time and I would occasionally take the bus ride down to the Subic gate, cross the river and experience the town.  Anyone who wasn't there would have a hard time believing the things that went on in town.  They still had martial law in effect in those days under Marcos and you couldn't be outside if you were in town between midnight to five a.m..  I got caught out there a couple of times and couldn't leave until dawn.  I had a lot of experiences there, some good, some bad, but most of what I remember are good now as the bad ones fade with time.

There was one funny incident where I got robbed one night.  I never took much money into town and I was coming back to the gate one morning on a trike and the guy whipped into an alley and five Filipinos approached with Balisong knives and demanded my money.  I think I had 5 peso on me at the time, maybe 10 (the exchange rate was 19 pesos to the dollar at the time).  I prudently handed it over.  They didn't believe it was all I had so I let them search me.  Disgusted, most of the robbers walked away, but this one Filipino chap looked at me and said, "You come with me."  Feeling a bit worried as to what he had in mind, I was somewhat relieved when he walked out on the main street, approached a vendor, and bought an orange Neihi soda with my 5 pesos.  What is funny is what happened next.  He turned and handed the soda to me and said, "here, you need this worse than I do."  Then he walked off.  I guess he figured he needed to rob higher ranking people than I was after that.  :D

Gematriot,

What I stated about the Chung Choy structure was just my opinion, but it was based on experience.  I've done a lot of karate and Tae Kwon Do, as well as Kenpo, Aikijutsu, and Wing Chun.  I've hit a lot of hard stuff with karate punches and never had  much of a problem.  But I definitely broke my hand hitting with the Chung Choy using a lot of muscle power.  Granted, I was hitting a steel door, practicing my Chung Choy, but I was wearing one of those Jhoon Rhee Safe-T pads at the time and felt my hand would be protected.  I suffered a metacarpal fracture, or what is known as a "boxer's fracture," where I broke the bone of the hand just under my little knuckle.  I did this while using karate style hip power when using a Chung Choy punch.  It required that the doctors at Tripler Army Medical Center in Honolulu to reset the bone--not a fun experience--and I almost broke my other hand trying to punch the doctor after that...fortunately he had two Samoan orderlies hold me until I quit snarling.

As you know, the Chung Choy requires a straight ahead piston motion with the index knuckle forward until just before impact, when the top of the hand on the thumb side is jerked back and the lower three (smaller) knuckles deliver the blow.  When used as designed--against an opponent's nose--the cartilage in the nose lessens the feedback of the blow and the hand is fine.  But against a hard target--like a steel door or a forehead--the smaller metacarpals in the hand are just not as strong as the larger metacarpals under the first two fingers.  High impact can lead to fractures.  Also, the motion of the wrist, from angled-forwards to angled-backwards at impact (executed with a whipping snap motion of the wrist) places the wrist at a slightly "bent upward" angle on impact.  This is structurally weak and can subject the wrist to damage as well if you hit something hard or immobile.

About three years ago I broke the same spot on my opposite hand when I pounded the floor of my house in order to get my dog's attention.  Somehow, in that episode, I punched the floor rather than hammered it and struck with my lower knuckles (probably too many years of punching habits--I punched rather than hammered and without thinking).  Although I didn't break this bone as badly, it was still painful and required 6 weeks in a cast.  That messed up my guitar playing for a while and made me look pretty stupid to boot.  But that is what I mean by structurally inferior.  The karate punch uses the first two metacarpal knuckles (bigger bones that can take more impact) and a straight wrist (which can also absorb more impact). 

I can't speak for others, but I don't like broken bones; especially self-inflicted broken bones.  It seems that striking should injure the opponent, not yourself.  This is why I have weaned myself away from the Chung Choy and a dependence on punching in general.  Punches work great on soft targets, and properly thrown punches will still work on hard targets...BUT...I do not feel I can control the situation well enough in a slugfest to land proper punches 100% of the time when it all hits the fan; things just seem to happen too fast.  Wild punches mean an eventual broken hand, especially if you catch the skull wrong on hit something like your enemy's elbow.  To my mind, in such situations it's not a case of if, but when.

That's what I meant.  I can send you a more detailed account in private if you want.  Thanks for the link on Pa Kua.  No I haven't read any of his stuff yet.
« Last Edit: May 05, 2008, 03:12:38 PM by Ed Stowers »
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whitewolf

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Re: Chi-Sao
« Reply #43 on: May 05, 2008, 11:43:00 AM »

Ed-wow lots of  info there about punching-personally I  never took any chinese type training so what you are saying is very interesting-my first contact with punching was training for boxing starting in summer camp when i  was a youngster and taking lessons as i  got  older=I faught in marine boot camp and got knocked out  once and won once. After that did some more boxing and training-once took some lessons from a guy who won against M Ali when he was a amature-also took lessons over the years from semi pros/mma guys etc-
As far as Olongpo-I spent many  days and nights there-i was there before martial law also-us marines and sailors were the only ones not armed in town-Me and a  couple buddies were jumped once just as we got over the bridge by a few locals-I backfisted the MF in the face and that was that-they  left-i got a lot stories but ill save them for another day-
you take care-whitewolf (el  lobo blanco))
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Ed Stowers

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Re: Chi-Sao
« Reply #44 on: May 06, 2008, 10:06:05 AM »

Whitewolf,

Boxing is a tough sport.  You have to learn to take it as much as you dish it out.  Being a mere mortal, I have gotten--as I have grown older--to prefer to dish it out and not take it if possible.  Getting beat on a lot has to come back at you at some point in old age.  Boxers can hit really hard, and many are really confident in their punching skills.  I was too, until I broke my hand.  It helps a lot int he ring when you have your hands taped and gloves on.  Take all of that protection off and it gets iffy.  Even Mike Tyson broke his hand punching some guy out of the ring with bare fists.  it's a great sport, but I my own experience has taught me, the hard way, not to make punching my primary weapon anymore.  I need to incorporate more tools in the toolbox here in my middle age.

I remember an incident on night in Olapgapo where a kid snatched a wristwatch off a Marine crossing the bridge and was shot to death by a PC (Philippine Constabulary) officer who saw it.  The Marine got his watch back, but didn't feel it was worth it.  I didn't witness this, but I heard about it many times from different people who claimed they had seen the incident.  Life was cheap there.  I did witness a Marine toss a whole paper bag full of pesos off the bridge one night to one of those little girls who stood in the banca boats in the river.  She caught it, but it knocked her off the boat into the river.  As nasty as that river was, when she hit the water about a dozen little boys onthe edge dived into the water to retrieve those pesos.

In another incident, we had a lieutenant commander jogging down from Cubi Point on the road one day and about 40 monkeys charged out of the jungle and beat the crap out of him and left him lying in the road.  Nobody prepared you for the Mad Monkey Attack!  He spent a few days in the hospital and had some wonderful rabies shots.
« Last Edit: May 06, 2008, 10:09:09 AM by Ed Stowers »
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Joe Hubbard

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Re: Chi-Sao
« Reply #45 on: May 10, 2008, 04:21:07 AM »

Nice post Brenda.  I love to string all those synergy drills together and use them regularly when teaching.  I leave out Chi Sao only because the time spent learning it doesn't equate in the rewards (if you know it already, then fine).  I use a wrist realease drill at the Hands part of that matrix which is quite combative and fun to train.

Ed

I lived in Honolulu in 77-79'.  I lived in a room above the Lollipop Strip Club on the main drag in Waikiki.  I was the resident bass player at Keone's Jazz club.  My mentor at the time was Flip Nunez- a piano player from the Bay Area who trained in Ed Parker's Kenpo and had worked out with many of the Oakland Bruce Lee guys.  Along with him teaching me Bebop jazz, he showed me one night how to split someone's face open with a power slap.  We were on a break from the gig outside the club at 0' dark hundred when a local boy approached Flip saying, "Hey Bra, why you give me big body..." and before he finished, Flip intercepted his intentions with the power slap to the face!  He explained to me that when faced with a threat like that, you either hit the guy in the middle of what he is saying or you hit him in the middle of you are saying.  A simple, easy to remember concept that has stayed with me.

Out

Joe
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Martin25

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Re: Chi-Sao
« Reply #46 on: May 12, 2008, 02:46:47 AM »

I have had experience of plenty of of Chi Sao and Filipino energy drills.
The chi sao seems to me to be harder to learn but has a rich reward when done properly.
Beware of learning it badly and do seek out a top instructor, as many claim to know it but don't.
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whitewolf

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Re: Chi-Sao
« Reply #47 on: May 12, 2008, 04:43:13 AM »

Joe-can you discribe  the power slap a little more-does it come from down by waist or up higher and come at a angle to the side of the face-or-either way?? Also interesting to attack in the middle of  what the person is saying or when you are talking-either way seems like the opponent is concentrating on the word while you give him a fat  smack....whitewolf (el  lobo blanco)
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whitewolf

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Re: Chi-Sao
« Reply #48 on: May 12, 2008, 04:55:50 AM »

Ed-just got a  chance to  read your  latest  post-Been in greece on some training in KM-those stories are something else-I was a istsgt and then SgtMaj the times i  was in Subic-as you relate their are a million stories-One night I was called to go to the local jail to check on a  complaint against one of my marines-while waitin I was called to the cell door by a Marine from another unit-he said Could I get him out -I said no he  had to  wait for his  unit -he was really shook up-there must  have  been 50  people in the same cell-it was not a good scene at  all-
As far as boxing goes-what it really does is get one to  be  able to  continue the fight while getting the shit  kicked out of them-i agree about the hands getting damaged-some of the people i met over the years who gave me lessons had hands that looked like bricks-bones had been broken and healed over and over-these guys were from the era of  boxing of the late 40s and 50s-at my age i basically trin to  strike with  palms-i also train on the heavy  bag  and do  not  use   gloves but puch 75% most of the time-you take  care-and stay  safe-whitewolf (el  lobo blanco)
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Joe Hubbard

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Re: Chi-Sao
« Reply #49 on: May 13, 2008, 11:29:26 AM »

The Power Slap is an open handed hooking strike to the side of the face, ear or neck.  The power is generated by torquing your ankle, knee, hip and shoulder (of the side you are hitting with).  This is a very effective tactic from a preemptive strategy.  For more on the verbal interupt concept, go here:

http://www.hockscqc.com/shop/product328.html

Lots of other cool drills that make up the whole progression.

Out

Joe
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whitewolf

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Re: Chi-Sao
« Reply #50 on: May 13, 2008, 01:55:16 PM »

Joe-thanks-whitewolf (el  lobo  blanco)
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