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Author Topic: Chi-Sao  (Read 21346 times)

Bryant

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Chi-Sao
« on: April 24, 2008, 03:07:08 PM »

How many people out there have experience with this sensitivity drill?

used properly I think it's an excellent tool for developing attributes
that are useful for very close range fighting, however I think many wing chun
people get stuck on this exercise and thus miss the point
it is a means to an end , not an end in itself

I have not seen many people
who have a real method for putting the
skills learned in chi-sao into a practical context

comments?...
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Milldog1776

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Re: Chi-Sao
« Reply #1 on: April 24, 2008, 05:02:24 PM »

I feel that the Chi Sao drill has a very serious point of diminishing returns. The ammount of time necessary to develop the skills learned while doing the drill vastly outway the usefullness of the of the techniques in a real fight.

The problem I have found with certain drills like Chi Sao is that it is a very effective tool if utilized while fighting someone that fights like that. As soon as you leave the structure...it is somewhat less effective.

However...Chi Sao is very good for ground training. That may not be it's intended use, but grappling utilizes a lot more arm sensitivity than say...boxing or kickboxing.
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oz man

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Re: Chi-Sao
« Reply #2 on: April 24, 2008, 06:23:26 PM »

Good point KM, a ground situation is definintely more applicable. You can consider it in a leg and torso sense aswell, not just arms/hands. That capitalizing on force/momentum can be vital on the ground.
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seldomseen

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Re: Chi-Sao
« Reply #3 on: April 24, 2008, 07:22:40 PM »



       We use it to train in the standing clinch. It's very applicable in this situation as you are trying to go for underhooks, collar/elbow, etc., And as mentioned, we also use it in grappling training in the mount and guard.

           Jason
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loyalonehk

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Re: Chi-Sao
« Reply #4 on: April 24, 2008, 11:02:47 PM »

Taught a bit of it tonite in fact.   8) 

It is just another piece of the pie...  Great for in close fighting, sensitivity training and adhearing to your opponent (Sticky Hands).  I've found it best to have the students close their eyes as much as possible for best results.  We apply the concept using the whole body and add mobility as skill increases.  (ie Mobile Chi Sao).  With take downs, knees, leg kicks, sweeps, trips, off balancing, etc.... 

Add weapons into the play with anchoring and explosive shifting/transitions in and out of the Chi Sao mode per say...

I enjoy it...

I like to explain the applications as such: 

Blood in your eyes
Smoke
Sprays
Lights out
etc.

We used to train this in a tight, single car garage with lots of bodies moving about with the lights out.  You touch and engage at random...  Thinking of finger tips as razor blades.

Dean
out ;)
« Last Edit: April 24, 2008, 11:05:43 PM by loyalonehk »
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whitewolf

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Re: Chi-Sao
« Reply #5 on: April 25, 2008, 01:11:59 AM »

After reading the posts  here I went to the web and u tube to read up on chi-sao-what is apparent to  me (IMHO only)  is that the drills used are good when working with another chi-sao partner but what happens when you step out of the box and the opponent charges right over you during your blocks? Am I wrong? When a student of chi-sao comes up against the preditor lurking in the shadows and is attacked I think it is all in  favor of the preditor-this is why i reolized that training for the 3  second knockout is a  better way than spending 3  minutes blocking wrists and forearms-hope i dont hurt anyones feelings here on the comments i am passing on. white (el lobo  blanco) wolf.
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gematriot

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Re: Chi-Sao
« Reply #6 on: April 25, 2008, 03:31:00 AM »

Hi Whitewolf...
IMHO Sifu Alan Orr says just about everything that needs to be said about chi sau. His tape series is excellent.
Check out the clips below (if you haven´t already).
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AKkp19KV9xg
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kPOlQyO6jkA&feature=related
If you would like a more detailed analysis of chi sao (sometimes boring  :(), let me know.
« Last Edit: April 25, 2008, 03:39:51 AM by gematriot »
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grlaun

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Re: Chi-Sao
« Reply #7 on: April 25, 2008, 07:13:53 AM »

Well its too late El Lobo Blanco!  MY feelings are hurt and I don't even do much chi sau!

I would however be aware that Mr. Webster was in the Navy and anything to do with a bunch of guys with lights out in a small room, touching each other frightens me. 

Dean was this before or AFTER the Navy?

Seriously (or semi-seriously).  I would go somewhat with what The Mill said about diminishing returns.  I think its important to develop the sesativity that Dean speaks of but not to over do it.  I believe it helps in the clinch, which can be a tough range to fight, especially if you are suprised.
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loyalonehk

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Re: Chi-Sao
« Reply #8 on: April 25, 2008, 08:23:13 AM »

I would however be aware that Mr. Webster was in the Navy and anything to do with a bunch of guys with lights out in a small room, touching each other frightens me. 

Dean was this before or AFTER the Navy?


RALOL  8)

Im still AD Navy.

PS
Got a couple females in class also  ;)

But hey...  I'll try anything twice  :-*

IMO...  Take Chi Sao concepts, do your own research and play with it.  As mentioned before, "It's just another piece of the pie". 

To me it seems to aid with reaction(s) and the Trapping applications (ie Trapping, hooking  elbows to expose the V-spot and such.

I try not over kill the "Ranges" talk...  If your making contact, you're in FIGHTING RANGE.

 8)

PS
Just a thought...  but if you commit yourself to this life style, then it would behoove you to check out all the tools of the trade.  To what depth is a personal choice. 

Traditional Chi Sao... Not for me, but add your flavor and spice it up!

websterkajupit.blogspot.com

Dean
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whitewolf

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Re: Chi-Sao
« Reply #9 on: April 25, 2008, 08:39:12 AM »

OK-some say  good  some say add to  it-some dont want to  go in a dark  room and touch heheheheh-so ill just keep reading the posts and add it as a piece of the pie-white wolf (el  lobo blanco)
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Martin25

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Re: Chi-Sao
« Reply #10 on: April 25, 2008, 09:59:13 AM »

Once you have the basic structure then go at it with the two training partners trying to hit each other and so on. Then its a fun and useful way of developing sensitivity,trapping and other skills. With a bit of protective equipment harder contact may brought in and good learning achieved. Try to avoid letting a senior beat up a less able student.
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Bryant

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Re: Chi-Sao
« Reply #11 on: April 25, 2008, 11:18:58 AM »

I don't know how other systems use chi-sao
or drills inspired by chi-sao
in the method I teach
chi sao uses three basic hand positions
Tan Sao - a palm up block / deflection
Bong Sao - a rotating elbow out deflection
Fook sao - a palm down cover
the participants alternate between these
three hand positions as they apply forward energy
and attempt to control the optimum line of attack
while simultaneously guarding their center line
as time goes by and skills improve
certain things are added or modified
depending on what the training focus is
if you play just to play then you eventually
get lost and reach a point of diminishing returns
it's important to know what you are doing and why you are doing it
so you can honestly measure if you are reaching your goals or not

many people train in a certain way without knowing why
simply because their teacher told them to do XYZ
if you ask them to explain what they are doing they are clueless

another thing to consider as a teacher is the fact that
people vary in level of intelligence and types of intelligence (ways of learning)
how do you teach in a way that allows the students
to realize his/her potential regardless of level of intelligence and or style of learning

there is a story of a old wing chun master named leung jan
who developed what is called the 40 points system
which was basically 40 specific application/techniques based on wing chun principles
I wonder how students progressed in this method as opposed  to the
more theoretical/technical styles of teaching that are very common in wing chun

then again it may have been a business decision
I think he may have charged a large fee for each point

B.
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loyalonehk

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Re: Chi-Sao
« Reply #12 on: April 25, 2008, 12:03:04 PM »

Good "point" Bryant.

We limit ourselves by imagination alone...

Chi Sao
Mobile Chi Sao with "Sticky Legs"
Add trapping, small joint manipulations, off balancing, throws, sweeps, trips, transition to weapons (knife, palm stick, side arm)....   then we must realize that we are no longer doing "Chi Sao" but expanding the borders of ancient concepts to modern applicable infighting.   

Now head butt, knee the balls and bite the SOB>

Where was I going with this??? 

Back to work  ??? :D

Oh yeah,

Good point B 8)
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whitewolf

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Re: Chi-Sao
« Reply #13 on: April 25, 2008, 06:49:56 PM »

OK-so what we are saying is use chi-sao and add to  it-i can go  for that-my question is how long does one train in chi-sao to use it effectively without saying "shit which hand goes  where and  when and dam it i screwed up lets start again partner?? Ok-maybe i am being a little silly about this-ill start over-my question is would you recommend that a instructor teach chi-sao to a civilian who  comes in to  learn self  defense tactics twice a week at your school or would you concentrate on reality tactics that would go into muscle memory and get them into a alert mode and proact when attack is emment.
After watching some vidios of Chi-sao practise and then watching for example Mr John Perkins method it appears that Mr Perkins method is more suited to the street.
I am not knocking the method only raising the question to get some thoughts on the subject-by discussing pros and cons it would seem like we learn more-

I just  looked at the clock its 347am here in camel  country and i  got to get a few more hours sleep before hitting the road and dodging the local drivers-Chi-sao wont help you on the highways here only thinking like a  kuwaite will save ones  ass-hehehheh-you all take  care-whitewolf (el lobo blanco)
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JimH

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Re: Chi-Sao
« Reply #14 on: April 25, 2008, 09:08:43 PM »

Chi Sao and Contact flow are DRILLS.
The reality of application is dependent upon how much the two,or more fighters,stay in arm to arm Contact.

All this exchange looks good in Demo but in a Real Conflict is sensitivity and movement or direction of flow that dicernible?

Me ,I do not want to exchange.
I Do Not want to maintain close in arm to arm contact,nor do I care which way his energy is going to flow next.

Close the gap ,move to an outside (close in) angle ,control the limb ,take the balance and destroy things.(elbows,knees,attack the head,neck,eyes ,nose groin and other targets)

Look at the clips on Youtube for combat Chi Sao,or Contact Flow with Perkins and look at what is being demonstarted in all the clips.
Now picture being that close and taking your foot and deliver a low angle side kick ,front kick or scoop kick down and through the knee.
The drill and training to ATTEMPT to use it for Real are Great if you have a person who just throws arms and hands.
Get a person who will take your knees,groin ,bladderwith feet ,legs or knees and the drill is useless.

Having trained in Wing Chun and having learned and done the drills,then having been in real altercations I never felt,nor tried to spend the time to feel, the attackers energy flow.
Sorry.

I agree with Loyalonehk once it is not a drill then "we are No Longer doing Chi Sao,we are In fighting".
"Now head butt, knee the balls and bite the SOB"

Just my opinion,based on my likes and dislikes of applicaton.
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whitewolf

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Re: Chi-Sao
« Reply #15 on: April 25, 2008, 09:37:36 PM »

Hey JimH- i knew it i knew  it  i  knew it-thank u  sir-whitewolf (el  lobo blanco)
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Bryant

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Re: Chi-Sao
« Reply #16 on: April 28, 2008, 02:32:03 PM »

Jim H,

That thing you mentioned about kicking
that is an excellent field of study within the context of chi-sao
is it possible to kick while in contact with someone who is applying
pressure and upsetting your balance, it can be difficult if not impossible

think about the charging counter to the clinching knee
that hock demonstrates in one of the UC modules as an example

if your balance is constantly being compromised you will not
be able to lift a leg to kick, at least not without
making your situation worse...

B.
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Hock

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Re: Chi-Sao
« Reply #17 on: April 28, 2008, 02:45:07 PM »

and remember my age old motto...


"When you fell the sticky?.....KICKY!"

Hock

JimH

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Re: Chi-Sao
« Reply #18 on: April 28, 2008, 03:57:30 PM »

In Chi sao ,the Drill,one more or less wants to stay in contact so the center lines are kept more or less facing each other.
The movement off line is a quarter turn left or right with feet more or less planted,but this shift disrupts energy flow enough that the opponent is not longer at our center line,no forward pressure, and we can take their knee/legs then.

Forward pressure is taken,given and shifted,while arm contact is more or less maintained,as per the Drill.

With in the confines of the drill,shifting balance to kick is hard because of the center line being assaulted and pushed back,causing balance disruption.

If one takes the Rapid Assault/straight blast attack,and instead of trying to go into an arm contact drill,one steps off line to an outside angle and closes the gap,then one can take the attackers legs and displace them simultaneously.

In a straight line attack,if we redirect one of the first strikes launched by the attacker,we have affected their balance already and  we can launch a straight in knee /shin attack,further displacing them.

If we have an attack on the street,why would we wait for the opponent to make /launch an attack/
If the threat is recognized then we should be preempting and taking their legs to cause balance disruption before they even get close enough to attempt a rapid assault down the center line.

If we watch Mr Perkins ,and many Wing Chun instructors they do throw low line kicks during the chi sao/contact flow.
(and these are done during the forward pressure with in the drill,not even moving off line)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WGbsM1Ud548

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jSmGwh_DkEk

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=szdF1nIAfpk

In the last one we see two Wing Chun Grand Masters Really Fighting.
No chi sao
No Straight blast
No verticle fist
No blocks
No parries
Nothing that looks any thing like wing chun from either man

We see off hand srikes,attempted throws,stand up grappling and take down to the floor
(The only principle of wing chun is center line to center line,NO One moved off it to any extent)

I am in an art that has throwing,so if  by happenstance,I have some one forward pushing/striking if I Cannot move off line,for what ever reason,why not grab them (hands,arms,clothing(pull them in while simultaneously scoop kicking their shin or knee sacrice throw them face first  or head into the ground)

One does not need to accept the forward pressure/strikes in reality,only in the drill.

If we watch these drill either by Wing Chun,JKD or Attack Proof/Guided chaos:
if we do not see either party bend,twist or more their spine,(spine stays errect) then a kick can be delivered by either party as balance disruption comes when the spine is shifted at the head,shoulders,hips,knees or a leg pushed or pulled,arm pushed or pulled.

Reality is not a Drill

Contact and directional intent are not held long enough  in reality for the Feeling/sensitivity to be perceived as in the Drill.

These are just my opinions and I mean not to seem an expert in these arts,nor what various people can and or cannot do in a Real Fight.
I would be foolish to tell people that you absolutely cannot kick a man in the head with a side kick if standing next to him,when I have seen Bill Wallace do just that,but I could say the majority will not be able to pull such a move off in reality.

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Bryant

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Re: Chi-Sao
« Reply #19 on: April 28, 2008, 04:11:02 PM »

great post JimH!
Thanks
I'll have to watch those clips when I get home
no video capability here at work
I'm assuming that last clip is cheung vs boztepe
B.
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Hock

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Re: Chi-Sao
« Reply #20 on: April 28, 2008, 04:19:24 PM »

Yes, that last clip is the ambush/surprise fight. (lots of people have many opinions about that event, but in truth, it never would have happened if Chun wasn't such a grandoise, arrogant, over-bearing, loud mouth.)

(What happened to the famous wing chun battle punch that I see EVERY wing chun guy simulate as a ground finish? ;D ) Works really well against...a man with no arms. Those arms just get in the way!

Hock

Bryant

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Re: Chi-Sao
« Reply #21 on: April 28, 2008, 04:55:25 PM »

LOL!
Haven't you heard
the streets of America are overrun with armless miscreants
I enjoy Wing Chun
but Wing Chun does have it's issues , like all arts it has weaknesses
I think in learning Wing Chun I learned a way of thinking
that lead me to the SFC
1. define the problem
2. find the solutions
3. internalize solutions to make it natural and spontaneous
that's what they did 400/500 years ago(in creating Wing Chun), then some of us got stuck on 400/500 year old solutions
the problem with many Wing Chun people
is they are very arrogant and believe Wing Chun
has the solution to every self defense scenario
I can go on and on
but that's enough for now
B.

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Bri Thai

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Re: Chi-Sao
« Reply #22 on: April 29, 2008, 03:56:57 PM »

I remember the British martial arts magazines back in the 80's when Cheung was always prattling on about how he would take on all comers to prove his modified Wing Chun was the best thing out there.

I also remember the first reports of the Boztepe incident.  The article, supported by photos, shows a young Boztepe initially talking to Cheung, pointing to a magazine article where Cheung was issuing his challenges.  Then Boztepe informed him that he would, indeed, like a piece of that particular pie.... then they square off and fight.

Now the Cheung camp went pretty quiet for quite a while, and the official excuse was that Cheung's Kung Fu slippers were to, well.... slippery!  The Cheung camp only resurfaced a considerable time later with an amazing array of excuses, many of which contradicted each other, including:-

*   slippery slippers

*   Cheung had to lose on purpose as Boztepe's friends were holding a knife to the throat of some of Cheung's students

*   Cheung was playing with him, being careful not to hurt him

*   Cheung actually won the fight, and the film was edited....

*   Cheung was jumped on from behind

etc. etc.

My view?  A very flawed art was considered the bees knees back then.  I did it for 12 months too!  But these flaws were exposed when two so called "Masters" rolled around like to girlies in a bitch fight.  Pathetic.

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oz man

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Re: Chi-Sao
« Reply #23 on: April 29, 2008, 05:05:49 PM »

Yeah i remember the old wrong shoe excuse going around. The others i hadn't heard but they don't suprise me. What a laugh!
 
I remember when hock had started coming to australia and then all of a sudden up pops William Cheung in a blitz magazine wearing military camo's and trying to sell his reality military style, unbeatable never seen before combat techniques.

That pretty much summed it up over here. I hope his camo slippers had some serious unbeatable never seen before grip on them.......!?
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whitewolf

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Re: Chi-Sao
« Reply #24 on: April 29, 2008, 05:15:36 PM »

speaking of slippers-there is a add for slippers to  wear on mats for the karate kids-it will never cease ::) ::) whitewolf (el  lobo blanco)
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cfadeftac

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Re: Chi-Sao
« Reply #25 on: April 29, 2008, 05:56:39 PM »

I remember when I first started to learn Wing Chun my instructor warned me that there was something in the drills and structure of the art that made the practicioner believe they were unbeatable. Since he also also taught Judo and  Aikido, as well as attending as many Modern Arnis camps as he could, he wanted to make sure that I did not fall into the trap of believing that I was undefeatable.

AN

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Nick Hughes

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Re: Chi-Sao
« Reply #26 on: April 29, 2008, 07:41:01 PM »

Ah yes, Bill Cheung...who produced the letters from Bruce Lee and claims he taught Bruce only AFTER Bruce died.

He also has the nifty trick of claiming he's fifteen years older than he is so Kung Fu's health benefits are immediately impressive.

When I was the Chief Instructor for Bob Jones' Melbourne dojo we had an open fight night every Friday.  Anyone could show up, be matched up and put in the ring for 3 rounds of kick boxing.

Bill Cheung rolls in with two Fijiian/Samoan boxing champs who he's roped in and taught front kicks to and now claims they were Wing Chun students.

I was the only one there in the heavyweight class of the big one but wasn't - until that night  :) at least - a kickboxer.  Dave Berry - a bit beyond his prime - was the other lighter guy's weight.

Cheung would have left claiming we were too afraid to fight if we hadn't produced anyone so Dave and I went into Bob's office demanding to fight them.  Bob was apprehensive because Dave wasn't a kid and I wasn't a kickboxer but he finally relented.

I beat my guy with a TKO in the first round and Dave beat his guy so badly, in and out of the ring, that Cheung threw (literally) the towel in.  In fact, I'd always assumed the expression, throwing the towel in was a figure of speech until that night.

Ah memories....

Nick
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oz man

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Re: Chi-Sao
« Reply #27 on: April 29, 2008, 08:39:42 PM »

Top story nick, there's a million about that guy.

You would have seen the claims he has been making for years about holding the world record for most punches thrown in a second...........
8.2 punches the story goes.............WOW! Thats impressive!

He does his best work with his hand, but it ain't for punching!
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Bri Thai

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Re: Chi-Sao
« Reply #28 on: April 30, 2008, 06:03:13 AM »

I remember there used to be a guy on the net a while back called Dan Webre.  He was a Wing Chun stylist, and he produced his deadly "Outlaw Fighting System!" after being convicted and imprisoned for some offence.  People who have seen the stuff said it was appalling, the type of stuff that only the likes of Phil Elmore etc. would like (i.e. super deadly claims with no sweat or hard work involved!).

Anyways, this Webre claimed that is was "easy" to punch 12 times per second.  12 fookin' times!  I can't even tap my fingers that fast! 

Why is there so much cack in the martial arts world, and why is Wing Chun one of those at the fore front of it?
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gematriot

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Re: Chi-Sao
« Reply #29 on: April 30, 2008, 09:38:15 AM »

Quote
Why is there so much cack in the martial arts world, and why is Wing Chun one of those at the fore front of it?
My two cents on the above quote...

As we all know not all martial arts are created equal. As regards Wing Chun I think that the whole Cheung / Boztepe debacle is one of the major reasons why Wing Chun went awry.
Back when that “fight” occurred Cheung was trying to break into the German market. He was stopped since he “lost face”. The WT then became the largest and most powerful organization internationally. Through clever marketing (grading schemes, extra programs, close affiliation with Budo International Magazine), the WT has created a mentality that their system is the best for self defence. THE GENERAL PUBLIC BELIEVES IT. Case in point: I had a young fellow shopping around for classes at our gym. This fellow had not had any classes before, had no other experience of any kind, etc… Within three months of joining WT he began to use group speak, “we do things this way…, our training methods are better than others… When I pointed out certain facts such as: he could hardly say WT training methods were better than anything else, WHEN HE HAD EXPERIENCED NOTHING ELSE” he retreated into his bubble and never spoke to me again. This, and many other similar anecdotes, proves to my mind that a cult like mentality floats through certain aspects of the WT.
When you add to this the fact that the primary training methods in WT have serious problems, you quite quickly get to the point where, the “whole problem is greater than the sum of the individual problems”. IMO these problems are: 1) a curriculum that is too standardized around the concept of rank slots. Example: Billy asks how to stop / handle situation X.  Under the WT model the following has been known to happen: The instructor doesn’t feel comfortable answering the question because the solution REQUIRES USE OF TECHNIQUES THAT DO NOT BELONG TO THE STUDENT´S RANK CURRICULUM. (This is quite different from withholding based solutions based on the student’s inability to perform at a high enough level – although this is frequently the justification given).
2) The fact that the Chi Sau program follows the same striated learning program can result that the interchanges displayed (Gwoh Sau) become too dependent on memory. If this occurs Chi Sau can degenerate into a game of scissors-paper-stone with far more variables. This can have two results: a type of mechanical sensitivity which drowns out spontaneity and b) a cyclic approach to training whereby a technique is learned so that it can be used in chi sau and once used in chi sau is considered to be learned.

For a better exposition of these ideas I recommend

http://www.yunhoiwingchun.com.au/Articles/AspectsoftheWingChunWorld/SourcesofPowerintheWingChunWorld/tabid/137/Default.aspx



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