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Author Topic: John La Tourette Speed  (Read 13053 times)

whitewolf

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John La Tourette Speed
« on: April 29, 2008, 11:22:23 AM »

OK-along these lines I saw a Dr John La Tourette on u  tube demo on speed hitting-comments please..whitewolf (el  lobo  blanco))- i just love this forum..
« Last Edit: April 29, 2008, 12:18:02 PM by Hock »
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JimH

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Re: John La Tourette Speed
« Reply #1 on: April 29, 2008, 01:56:17 PM »

Speed hitting:
To me,it is nothing more than using the Defensive and Offensive moves simultaneously along with a possible physical response to the strike.

Problems with the clip:
The opponent stood till the end as a stationary dummy.
How does the Defender deal with an attack or the opponent just closing the distance in preparation for the fight?

If the attacker prepares for conflict by taking a boxing/striking stance (for example) ,he will most likely lower his head /chin and when his arms come up the shoulders will protect the neck line,making the edge of hand strike harder to obtain,especially from a hands down position as used by the defender in this case.

If the attacker closes the Gap straight in ,or at angle,the measured strikes launched by the defender will not be so on target.

If the strikes done by the defender are done with power,the physical reaction from the strikes will put the attacker way out of distance for the follow up,and since each person would react differently to the strikes of varied power,the follow up is not a known given.

In the demo we also do not have the attacker in any stage of adrenaline ,so the responses we see are not true as may be in Reality,they are staged for the demo.
(the demo reminds me of alot of the multiple strike drills of Kenpo with a Dilman twist)

At the end when the attacker is told to push,he does not really push he places his hand on the defender moves the defenders shoulder as allowed/instructed,leaves his arm there and awaits being struck.

The hay maker punch is delt with as in most arts,block/parry of the incoming limb while simultaneously striking with the other hand and then striking with the hand/arm used to block /parry.

Nice clip.
Nice Demo.
The loud exhalation by the defender also added to the movie like expectation of speed.

Years ago a guy sold a video of 100 strikes in less than a second,I think that was the count claim,lol.
The video showed the the guy put his arms up and charge the opponent.
That was it,the WHOLE thing.
The rest of the video slows down the action and we then are taken through EACH and EVERY point of Contact made by the guy into the oponent.

He sold loads of these garbage videos.

We are looking for Secrets that do not exist.

I like people who do not claim to deliver anything special ,just good old fashioned methods of dealing with fight concepts.

We do not need speed of follow ups if the first strike does the trick,lol.

Just my opinions as a student of the arts nothing more.
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whitewolf

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Re: John La Tourette Speed
« Reply #2 on: April 29, 2008, 05:12:44 PM »

JimH-thanks-I had thoughts that it looked a little corographiced too-No one is going to make a vidio that does not show them as the "winner"-as far as one of the blows he demo where right forearm strikes left side of neck and left hand strikes right cheek area -comments please-whitewolf (el lobo blanco) (you see i try to  pick  your  brain)  ;D ;D
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JimH

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Re: John La Tourette Speed
« Reply #3 on: April 30, 2008, 02:53:07 PM »

I looked at the clip for that segment:
If I looked at the right portion of the clip,the Dr makes an open handed slap,(left hand to opponents right cheek/ear area) and then a milisecond behind makes the Right forearm/ridgehand to the left side of the opponents neck,Brachial plexus area.
The idea, which works well on the stationary opponent ,is the head is in movement to the left which causes the neck muscles to tighten ,giving a stronger striking surface for the forearm to the brachial plexus.
It also stretches the artery on the right side while compressing,by muscular force,to the artery on the left side while striking with the forearm and driving the bone(forearm or ridgehand) in further compressing the blood flow.
The brain senses a traumatic effect to blood flow to the brain and drops blood pressure causing the person to drop,to go prone, to allow blood flow to continue to the brain with less effort,by gravity if need be.
(when Jim Fix the runner had a heart attack he grabbed on to a fence ,keeping his upper body errect,harder for blood to get to the brain.Had he fallen prone they said he might have lived)

These strikes work,they work BEST on a stationary target,a willing person,a person  who has been the subject of these required strikes before,( as we see often in George Dilman students).

Again if arms come up,adrenaline flows,and the target moves then these speed strikes,precise strikes with follow ups are harder to make.
That said
If one has a mouthy ,stationary, attacker who wants to demand or spend time talking the threat before they carry it out,then a fast preemptive entry along with a brachial strike with a forearm or ridge hand ,or the set up we see in the clip ,works well.

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usks1

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Re: John La Tourette Speed
« Reply #4 on: April 30, 2008, 03:22:39 PM »

These demo's look cool, and the idea of having a quick pre-emptive strike is a good tactic to have in your pocket.

But make sure you spend just as much time or more learning to deliver those strikes with power vs a target. No matter how fast you are, if you don't hit your target, or don't hit it with enough force to get the desired effect... Then it is just ballroom dancin.

Train hard.

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" I see people doing all kinds of crazy stuff.. Eatin razor blades and sh--t.. But I wanna know.. Can he fight?? "

Moses Powell ( RIP ) - The warrior within

VicMackey

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Re: John La Tourette Speed
« Reply #5 on: April 30, 2008, 04:30:15 PM »

You wanna see real speed? See Muhammad Ali, Joe Louis, Mike Tyson, and Vitor Belfort (MMA) in their prime knock out moving opponents with their sheer hand speed. And, Tyson and Louis hand power to go along with that speed.
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"Fail to prepare, prepare to fail."
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"An armed society is a polite society."
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JimH

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Re: John La Tourette Speed
« Reply #6 on: April 30, 2008, 07:15:59 PM »

Quote USKS1:
"No matter how fast you are, if you don't hit your target, or don't hit it with enough force to get the desired effect... Then it is just ballroom dancin."

Absolutely Right.
                 ........................................................................
Ali and Tyson,Boxers who had speed and Power ,IN THEIR RANGE.

Ali was more or less an outside fighter , he was at his best on the outside ,long reach and Great Foot work allowed him to make it work.
Ali made the opponents plod in against him and he measured them and worked them.

Tyson on the other hand had NO Foot work and walked in delivering power and eating shots to get inside the opponents range to take them apart.
(similarly to Joe Frazier)

Boxing is a sport that requires the participants to more or less fight centerline to centerline.

Good fighters,no matter from where they come,fit USKS1 quote above.
They Hit there Target to get the Desired Effect from the Range that is Most advantageous to them.

« Last Edit: April 30, 2008, 07:19:37 PM by JimH »
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whitewolf

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Re: John La Tourette Speed
« Reply #7 on: May 01, 2008, 01:28:34 AM »

JimH and all-I now recall (it takes some time these days- ;D) that i attended a seminar given by Michael Depasqual Sr in the 80,s-he gave a talk to the local FBI and security personnel in Newark NJ-he talked about I>E>D>s back  then and gave a demo on the strike by the left hand to the face while other hand hammerfists to  other side on neck-this is just another example of how tactics are copied  and passed on today. I am not commenting on the effectiveness of the strikes only passing on that H2H tactics have been around a long time. As a side comment Mr Depasquale  Sr was a pretty nice gentleman -I was fortunate to be able to  talk to  him and meet his wife at a Gary Alexander Martial arts award dinner before Mr Depasquale Sr passed away. stay  safe-whitewolf (el lobo blanco)
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Nick Hughes

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Re: John La Tourette Speed
« Reply #8 on: May 01, 2008, 07:28:05 AM »

De Pasquale rocked.  He and Pete Siringano were two of my heros growing up and I finally got to meet De Pasquale Sr at karate college.  We chatted for ages and I was invited to his - and Wally Jay's - birthday party in VA. Great night, great man.

Nick
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whitewolf

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Re: John La Tourette Speed
« Reply #9 on: May 01, 2008, 09:13:23 AM »

Nick-yes he was ausome-I know his son and attended a seminar he gave also-As for Depasquale Sr - when i talked to  him the last time he still was discussing the martial arts and I will always rememeber he seemed to never give up as he got weaker. It seems like the great ones are not really remembered and the bull shitters jump up and sell a bunch of crap-thats one reason why I pick my instructors carefully-take their classes and keep on going and dont join a super duper  Karate know all teach all school that says it is the only  way to  go-now that i am on a roll I read the last BB mag and must have counted at least 10 or  more schools that teach the ""Only "" way to  go. Again its the $$$$$-
stay safe Whitewolf (el lobo blanco)
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JimH

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Re: John La Tourette Speed
« Reply #10 on: May 01, 2008, 02:21:02 PM »

Michael De Pasquale Sr  and Jr are both Great martial artists who have always believed that through Martial arts training you could achieve anything.
They always Gave/give back.
They have always worked to ever expand the Arts as a whole,not just their own brand of Jujitsu.
I had opportunity to meet Sr many times,never to train with though,as Nick said he was a legend when I was a kid reading the Mags and to meet and talk to him was an honor to itself.
I have had opportunity to train with Michael De Pasquale Jr a few times and see him at least once a year at events in the NY area.
(a few months ago I had opportunity to talk with Mike Jr,Gary Alexander and the legend Joe Hess in a little circle and man what an honor just to mostly listen to these guys and the History of the Growth of the arts)

I like these trips down Memory/Legend Lane Whitewolf.
(nothing is NEW just repackaged,with some people selling the repacked stuff as original and the ONLY Way,lol)

The TRUE / ONLY  Way  is the ONE that works for you which gets your hide out of a jam in one piece.
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whitewolf

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Re: John La Tourette Speed
« Reply #11 on: May 01, 2008, 09:15:48 PM »

JimH-I agree-whitewolf (el lobo blanco)
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VicMackey

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Re: John La Tourette Speed
« Reply #12 on: May 04, 2008, 07:40:21 AM »

Speaking of Tyson, I have to disagree. In his early days when he was an awesome fighter, he had foot work and stalked his opponents. He was also difficult to hit bobbing and weaving out of that peekaboo stance taught to him by late, great trainer of champions, Cus D'Amato. He'd even toy with his opponent sometimes and make him miss prior to landing bombs on him. He was very economical and worked the body a lot too. For a knockout artist in his earlier days, he has even shown that he has the endurance to go the distance. Believe me, I got his films of his training and earlier fights. He's even threw 5 punches per second on a heavybag or in the air, different angles too and bending his whole body to generate power. He had amazing hand speed for such a heavywieght since Louis and Ali. After he fired Kevin Rooney, he was never the same fighter again. He was already hosed up after his fights w/ Frank Bruno and Buster Douglas. He was much worse after prison.
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"Fail to prepare, prepare to fail."
"A citizen is armed and free while a subject is disarmed and under control."
"An armed society is a polite society."
"Keep your friends close and your enemies closer"-Sun Tzu
"Everyone has a plan until they get punched in the mouth"-Mike Tyson

VicMackey

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Re: John La Tourette Speed
« Reply #13 on: May 04, 2008, 07:45:21 AM »

Ever seen Joe Louis's earlier fights? He made it look so easy. Very little effort and little waste of motion. His chin was his flaw though. It was said that his trainer had a jar of flies for Louis to catch in order to develop his hand speed. Like Tyson, he had power and speed in both hands. He had a chopping block for a right hand, a jab that would bust a lightbulb, and a left hook that would take anyone out. No heavyweight ever held the title longer than he did.
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"Fail to prepare, prepare to fail."
"A citizen is armed and free while a subject is disarmed and under control."
"An armed society is a polite society."
"Keep your friends close and your enemies closer"-Sun Tzu
"Everyone has a plan until they get punched in the mouth"-Mike Tyson

VicMackey

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Re: John La Tourette Speed
« Reply #14 on: May 04, 2008, 07:46:44 AM »

The late Bruce Lee had phenomenal speed too as shown in his exhibitions/demonstrations. Too bad he never cared to compete to prove it.
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"Fail to prepare, prepare to fail."
"A citizen is armed and free while a subject is disarmed and under control."
"An armed society is a polite society."
"Keep your friends close and your enemies closer"-Sun Tzu
"Everyone has a plan until they get punched in the mouth"-Mike Tyson

usks1

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Re: John La Tourette Speed
« Reply #15 on: May 04, 2008, 09:09:08 AM »

Speaking of Tyson, I have to disagree. In his early days when he was an awesome fighter, he had foot work and stalked his opponents. He was also difficult to hit bobbing and weaving out of that peekaboo stance taught to him by late, great trainer of champions, Cus D'Amato. He'd even toy with his opponent sometimes and make him miss prior to landing bombs on him. He was very economical and worked the body a lot too. For a knockout artist in his earlier days, he has even shown that he has the endurance to go the distance. Believe me, I got his films of his training and earlier fights. He's even threw 5 punches per second on a heavybag or in the air, different angles too and bending his whole body to generate power. He had amazing hand speed for such a heavywieght since Louis and Ali. After he fired Kevin Rooney, he was never the same fighter again. He was already hosed up after his fights w/ Frank Bruno and Buster Douglas. He was much worse after prison.

I don't think anyone argues that hand speed is important. But it is just one of the factors to a successful strike or kick. Placement & power are also major pieces of the puzzle.

The demo that started this thread is one of many used to demonstrate speed. It shows speed, but no power or ability to deliver the body mechanics to develop power.

Watching Tyson hit a heavy bag with 5 hits in under a second with power is a much better example imho.

Also seeing the speed / power & accuracy demonstrated by any of the great fighters you mentioned is a much better example of speed punching than a silly 25 slap hit per second demo.

We could go on forever about fighters who demonstrate great handspeed but just as importantly, out of the many very fast fighters out there, the majority that stand out from the crowd also demonstrate great timing...

They have the spacial awareness to know what is up around them, and they fire hard & fast when the target is available. Many consider timing to be more important than speed. I just see it as another piece of the big puzzle.

Jack Johnson
Muhammad Ali
Sugar Ray Robinson
Roy Jones Jr
Oscar DeLahoya
Sugar Ray Leonard
Even though many don't like him, Hector Camacho was a fast & accurate hitter too.

Anyway. I am all for being fast, but not if it sacrifices power or accuracy. And ya gotta have timing too.. Did I already mention that..   ;)

Keep up the hard training.
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" I see people doing all kinds of crazy stuff.. Eatin razor blades and sh--t.. But I wanna know.. Can he fight?? "

Moses Powell ( RIP ) - The warrior within

VicMackey

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Re: John La Tourette Speed
« Reply #16 on: May 11, 2008, 12:33:59 PM »

I yeah, I forgot Roy Jones and Ray Robinson. Thanks for mentioning those 2. Both Robinson and Jones, even when retreating, had the power to knock out anyone even with either hand. And Robinson doing that with a left hook is amazing.
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"Fail to prepare, prepare to fail."
"A citizen is armed and free while a subject is disarmed and under control."
"An armed society is a polite society."
"Keep your friends close and your enemies closer"-Sun Tzu
"Everyone has a plan until they get punched in the mouth"-Mike Tyson

Hock

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Re: John La Tourette Speed
« Reply #17 on: May 11, 2008, 12:37:58 PM »

It is interesting about the retreat punch and power.
It sort of defies much of the doctrines about power and punching and foot positioning, etc...

Hock

Martin25

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Re: John La Tourette Speed
« Reply #18 on: June 06, 2008, 04:18:27 AM »

Anyone who ever stood in front of Bruce Lee or challenged him in the street became a believer in his speed and power. I don't think that he believed in competitions because they are not real all out fighting with no rules.
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Martin

hessian1

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Re: John La Tourette Speed
« Reply #19 on: June 06, 2008, 07:45:15 AM »

 
  Hi all,

      Actually the secret to the retreating knock out has already been explained by USKS1 when he discusses the ability to think and operate in the middle of whats going on and coupled with timing. What is occurring is the fighter moves backward drawing the other fighter into a charge to keep their perceived advantage going, here's where the timing comes in, the retreating fighter then times the punch with the other fighters rush for maximum effect using their momentum to add energy to the punch.

    If you ever get the chance to watch footage of a knockdown/knockout while the fighter is moving backwards you will notice a slight shift in speed or pause by the retreating fighter basically allowing the pursuer to run into the punch. This is either by shear blind luck or you are watching a great fighter at his very best.

  Keep safe and train hard/smart,  Mark H
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Keep safe and train hard,  Mark H

arsenalgunna

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Re: John La Tourette Speed
« Reply #20 on: June 07, 2008, 10:44:02 AM »

It would seem timing is everything, with foot work secondary.  How would you train something like that?
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whitewolf

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Re: John La Tourette Speed
« Reply #21 on: June 07, 2008, 11:45:13 AM »

Arsen-i recommend start by  pushing the heavy back and as come back at you move back angle and strike at bag.e. jab cross hook and move-then add knee to strikes or both hands to  sides of  head twist and knee-hope that helps -whitewolf (el  lobo blanco)
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rasdj

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Re: John La Tourette Speed
« Reply #22 on: June 07, 2008, 05:55:34 PM »

It would seem timing is everything, with foot work secondary.  How would you train something like that?
I would say timing and footwork are equally important as footwork is what gets you into range (at least 1/3 of the time, otherwise he moves into range or a combination of the two).  Simply knowing that its the right time to strike isn't enough, you  have to be there. 
That said, the drill suggested helps you work both.
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hessian1

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Re: John La Tourette Speed
« Reply #23 on: June 07, 2008, 06:23:41 PM »


  rasdj,

      You are absolutely correct. Footwork is exceedingly important. Without a high level in skill of footwork you can't pull off the retreating knockout. The other thing is drills will get you to a certain level, but you need to practice all these skill in a spariring enviroment.
   It's like Tyson or Cus said "Everybody's got a plan until they get hit"

Keep safe and train hard/smart,  Mark H
 
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Keep safe and train hard,  Mark H

arsenalgunna

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Re: John La Tourette Speed
« Reply #24 on: June 07, 2008, 10:17:53 PM »

With someone closing in, it would seem obvious "that you would be there" to me, meaning it's not going to take a lot of footwork to angle off and strike.  The accuracy of the shot as well as the timing still, to me, seems to be paramount.
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hessian1

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Re: John La Tourette Speed
« Reply #25 on: June 08, 2008, 03:53:12 PM »

arsenalgunna,

     The beauty of this shot is that it appears that the "retreating" fighter is still moving backwards when the knockdown/knockout occurs.  There is no evident "angling off" to
set up the punch.

Keep safe and train hard/smart, Mark H
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Keep safe and train hard,  Mark H

Bryant

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Re: John La Tourette Speed
« Reply #26 on: June 12, 2008, 09:31:01 AM »

I had the pleasure of meeting "The Dean"
at the Tackett seminar, I would love to hear his take
on speed hitting from a Kajukenbo perspective.
B.
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usks1

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Re: John La Tourette Speed
« Reply #27 on: June 12, 2008, 01:59:47 PM »

Bryant,
Help me out... What group were you with? I suck at remembering names...

Here is a idea on speed hitting... Hit first, Hit hard, keep Hitting till they quit fighting back.. 

Then hit the road... fast... ;)
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" I see people doing all kinds of crazy stuff.. Eatin razor blades and sh--t.. But I wanna know.. Can he fight?? "

Moses Powell ( RIP ) - The warrior within

Bryant

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Re: John La Tourette Speed
« Reply #28 on: June 12, 2008, 02:16:17 PM »

lol!...sounds like a plan to me

I'm about 5'7"  black ; shaved head ; goatee ; was wearing black pants , white shirt

I am a wing chun guy

I was paired with another gentlemen who also studies wing chun

see you at uc camp

B.
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usks1

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Re: John La Tourette Speed
« Reply #29 on: June 12, 2008, 04:32:12 PM »

lol!...sounds like a plan to me

I'm about 5'7"  black ; shaved head ; goatee ; was wearing black pants , white shirt

I am a wing chun guy

I was paired with another gentlemen who also studies wing chun

see you at uc camp

B.

Gotcha.... It was good to meet and train with you guys.

We had a good Wing Chun crowd there, as well as different JKD groups. It's good to see everybody stepping out of their environments to check out some new stuff.

See ya in July..

Dean.
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" I see people doing all kinds of crazy stuff.. Eatin razor blades and sh--t.. But I wanna know.. Can he fight?? "

Moses Powell ( RIP ) - The warrior within
 

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