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[Adventure]

This is what this officer has to say:


Calibre Press Survival Seminar, 2003

In its April 2003 online newsletter, Calibre Press published results of a research project completed along with PPCT Management Systems. This project measured the other side of the equation, namely the frequency in which police officers were forced to the ground by attackers. About 1,400 cases were reported by officers attending the Calibre Press Street Survival Seminar. [EN3]

Respondents were asked whether an attacker had ever attempted to force them to the ground. More than half (52%) reported this had occurred. Of that number, 60% reported that their attackers had been successful in taking them down. Of the 60% taken down, 52% reported receiving ground control training prior to the event, and 40% after.

At the time of the assault, most of the assailants were under the influence of alcohol and/or drugs. Most of the takedown incidents occurred during domestic and other disturbance calls, or during traffic stops. These are the same situations in which the majority of officers are assaulted and killed each year (31% during disturbances, accounting for 15.6% of officer deaths, followed by traffic stops, accounting for 15.1% of officer deaths).

45% of the attempts to take the officer down occurred during interviews

40% occurred at handcuffing

10% at escort

5% during booking

Standard assault patterns took the following forms:

Pulling the officer to the ground (33%)

Pushing the officer to the ground (28%)

Tackling the officer to the ground (24%)

Kicking or punching the officer to the ground (15%)

Once the officer was down:

The subject continued to assault the officer once the officer was down (64%)

The subject fled (31%)

The subject waited for the officer to get back up to continue the fight (5%)

Of the ground fights, suspects generally continued with grappling and pinning techniques (77%), or used punches, kicks, and strikes (66%). However, in 21% of the cases, the subjects attempted to disarm the officer, with 5% being successful. As a side note, the FBI states that of 594 law enforcement officers killed between 1992 and 2001, 46 were killed with their own weapon.

On the ground, the officers tended to use weapons other than firearms:

Pepper spray (OC) was used 29% of the time

Impact weapons (sticks, batons, flashlights, handcuffs, etc.) were used 26% of the time

Hands, feet, holds, etc., were used 24% of the time

Officers used firearms in just 13 cases (less than 1% of attacks). However, during these 13 uses of firearms, three resulted in suspect fatalities.

Final Comment

Statistics should be viewed more as guidelines than as specifics. The varied situational, environmental, physical, and psychological intersections that occur within confrontations make each and every one different. However, if similar patterns occur time and again, the patterns should not be ignored.

The LAPD study does not show that “90% of fights go to the ground.” Instead, the LAPD study shows that 95% of altercations took on one of five familiar patterns (with which any street cop will be intimately familiar). It also shows that of that 95%, 62% ended up with both the officer and the suspect grappling on the ground.

Obviously, being professionally charged with restraining someone versus being primarily focused on escaping an attack will change the dynamic of a confrontation after the initial engagement. This is why I believe police in an arrest situation are more likely than a citizen in a self-defense situation to stay on the ground during a physical encounter.

Nonetheless, it is interesting to note that more than half the officers surveyed by Calibre Press reported that suspects had attempted to take them down, and that the suspects accomplished this 60% of the time. Of that number, the overwhelming majority stayed on the ground grappling with the officer (77%). When considering these patterns of assault, they are of the same nature as criminal assaults on citizens. In other words, the mechanics of an assault (versus the mechanics of arrest) do not change simply because one of the people involved is a police officer. [EN4]

To conclude, one can quibble with the exact percentages, but being on the ground happens frequently during serious altercations. Could a person’s being taken down and not having an effective means to deal with the situation increase odds of death or serious injury, either to him/herself or to the assailant? My personal view is that this is the case.

http://www.ejmas.com/jnc/jncframe.htm

[Joe Hubbard]

100% of all fights start standing!

Out

Joe

[whitewolf]

Good stats-Joe made a excellent comment also=While in discusssions with the instructor of KM in Athens and talking to the second in charge of the school (who is a street police officer) the comments were made that they try to never ever go to the ground as their almost always a third party waiting to jump in plus the fact that street altercations are not a pretty sight (my words)-in another post their were comments about the English POs being hampered due to not being able to  seach a suspect the same way as here in the US-this adds to to the problem of ground fighting for them and anyone who is not trained in responses to subduing a suspect while off your feet.Sence a PO is bound to try to just subdue a suspect they are a hell of a disadvantage-my final comment is that it would probably save a lot of  POs lives if the chain of  command in the police departments all the way up to the top would add mandatory response training in the area of submissions to their sylabus for the line officer. whitewolf (el  lobo blanco)

[Joe Hubbard]

Although going to the ground should never be your main priority, if you find yourself there- you'd better know what to do.  Enter-Jim McCann!

Out

Joe

[Karl]

I agree with Joe,

Thats like the fight should be over in 60 Seconds, if it isn't you better know some stuff.

It's not so much of going to the ground, as knowing what to do so you don't get taken there and if you do get taken there.
Knowing what to do to get up safely.

[Joe Hubbard]

Alas, the reason we train.  Well stated brother Karl.

Out

Joe

[Ed Giglio]

I agree with all your comments. However the first element to address, especially for LEOs, is the number of hours actually spent training. In the UK you have 6 hours a year mandatory training in officer defence...6 hours I tell you!

Many of my fellow officers couldn't fight their way out of a paper bag and through inglorance and lack of training seriously believe the 6 hours is all they need and that they have become proficient in the use of their weapons.

Now, I am no ninja by any stretch of the imagination however I do put in a hell of a lot of training hours a year, daily, weekly, monthly. Mainly because its my passion. But even so I have found myself analysing the post-incident and kicked myself for forgetting or not being sharp enough to use a particular weapon transition, tactic etc...

In addition, I am sorry to say this, but all the police defence trainers I have encountered are pathetic. Their coordination, skill level and instructional prowess are very very low.
So before we can concentrate on what to teach in the syllabus changes have to be made in the number of mandatory hours training for officers (and they should undergo an exam and not simply turn up as most do!) and assign willing and capable instructors.

Finally, the aspect of fitness has also to be addressed. Some hardcore, functional training should be also made mandatory. Not only is it necesary for chasing suspects (I am the assigned unit runner: they drive me to the location and let me loose...mainly because everyone else is so overweight!) but also for fighting. Additionally, its great to establish some of the lost esprit de corps and , this will please the Commissioner, it is good for public perception to see fit-looking cops on the streets.

So to recap, mandatory training; able and motivated instructors and fitness. These are the building blocks that in my view need to be established before designing a syllabus.

Rant over!

Ciao

Ed

[Hock]

There is newer research fom 2006 involving criminal justice college studies but the results are near the same.

Hock

[Joe Hubbard]

The moral of the story?  Cops and citizens need to know what to do if they get taken to the ground.  Not only do they NEED to know how to get up, they need to understand the tactics that will allow them to get up- this means understanding that range!

Londoners, listen up.  Big Jim McCann is coming to London in October.  The dates aren't confirmed as yet, but they will be soon.  He will be teaching a prominent MMA group in North London, but all others are welcome to this invaluable information- please don't loose out!

Anybody with inquiries can contact me direct on: 0789 444 6794

Out

Joe

[Hock]

Back..had to go for a second...

The newer studies summerize that we hit the ground in a fight....in this occurance order

1) We trip and fall
2) We are punched down
             a) sucker punches
             b) round house punches
             c) sport jab/cross
3) We are tackled
4) We are pulled down


These studies, like political polls are estimated extroplations and so forth. But one thing we know for sure, we hand, stick, knife, gun and mixed-weapon fight on the ground despite the varied guestimates. This we can conclude. Therefore...

Safe thing to do? I decided long ago? Is EVERYTHING you do standing you should try and train on the ground or knee high. Seemlessly. That way you are prepared to do as much as possible if down there. Then there are the things to learn unique to the ground.

You know...I am not too concerned with the stats on this? 40% to 90%? Whatever? It happens a lot and just have to do it.

and as an aside, I thoroughly impressed with the evolution fo the UFC today, they are grounding and pounding the wrestlers today. This should have been done in the 1990's for God's sake. I do feel fully vindicated in my early complaints about the early UFC. BUT it created a SEA of wrestlers worldwide, confused and hypnotized into wrestling. It even destroyed the US Army approach to combatives.

Hock

[Joe Hubbard]

Amen!

[Karl]

Hi Ed, i feel what you say.
Down under we have the same problem.
I am Private Security but have Friends in the Force who tell me things.
When ever there is a chase and somebody has to go over the wall, the first question is.
Who is just out of the Academy??///
Then, Ok you go over the wall and chase him,them.
Even the Corrective Service doesn't have an annual Fitness Test.

For the Force they only have to pass the annual Firearms Test once a Year.
No Annual Fitness Teat.

Just remember, If you practice something every day, for Years.
You will be very good at what you are training.
It might be the wrong thing, but you will be very good at it.

Sorry just my 3 Cents.
As the Aussie Dollar is now 96 to the dollar it has to be worth something.

[WTAC]

I have seen this data many times. They don’t really talk about Officers taking the suspect to the ground. In California resisting suspects get taken down by Officers a large portion of the time. The full LAPD study talks a little about it. In California ground fighting training for L.E is pretty common. It varies in quality but it is taught at almost the Departments I have contact with. One of the reasons LAPD did so well in their study.
Aaron

This is what this officer has to say:


Calibre Press Survival Seminar, 2003

In its April 2003 online newsletter, Calibre Press published results of a research project completed along with PPCT Management Systems. This project measured the other side of the equation, namely the frequency in which police officers were forced to the ground by attackers. About 1,400 cases were reported by officers attending the Calibre Press Street Survival Seminar. [EN3]

Respondents were asked whether an attacker had ever attempted to force them to the ground. More than half (52%) reported this had occurred. Of that number, 60% reported that their attackers had been successful in taking them down. Of the 60% taken down, 52% reported receiving ground control training prior to the event, and 40% after.

At the time of the assault, most of the assailants were under the influence of alcohol and/or drugs. Most of the takedown incidents occurred during domestic and other disturbance calls, or during traffic stops. These are the same situations in which the majority of officers are assaulted and killed each year (31% during disturbances, accounting for 15.6% of officer deaths, followed by traffic stops, accounting for 15.1% of officer deaths).

45% of the attempts to take the officer down occurred during interviews

40% occurred at handcuffing

10% at escort

5% during booking

Standard assault patterns took the following forms:

Pulling the officer to the ground (33%)

Pushing the officer to the ground (28%)

Tackling the officer to the ground (24%)

Kicking or punching the officer to the ground (15%)

Once the officer was down:

The subject continued to assault the officer once the officer was down (64%)

The subject fled (31%)

The subject waited for the officer to get back up to continue the fight (5%)

Of the ground fights, suspects generally continued with grappling and pinning techniques (77%), or used punches, kicks, and strikes (66%). However, in 21% of the cases, the subjects attempted to disarm the officer, with 5% being successful. As a side note, the FBI states that of 594 law enforcement officers killed between 1992 and 2001, 46 were killed with their own weapon.

On the ground, the officers tended to use weapons other than firearms:

Pepper spray (OC) was used 29% of the time

Impact weapons (sticks, batons, flashlights, handcuffs, etc.) were used 26% of the time

Hands, feet, holds, etc., were used 24% of the time

Officers used firearms in just 13 cases (less than 1% of attacks). However, during these 13 uses of firearms, three resulted in suspect fatalities.

Final Comment

Statistics should be viewed more as guidelines than as specifics. The varied situational, environmental, physical, and psychological intersections that occur within confrontations make each and every one different. However, if similar patterns occur time and again, the patterns should not be ignored.

The LAPD study does not show that “90% of fights go to the ground.” Instead, the LAPD study shows that 95% of altercations took on one of five familiar patterns (with which any street cop will be intimately familiar). It also shows that of that 95%, 62% ended up with both the officer and the suspect grappling on the ground.

Obviously, being professionally charged with restraining someone versus being primarily focused on escaping an attack will change the dynamic of a confrontation after the initial engagement. This is why I believe police in an arrest situation are more likely than a citizen in a self-defense situation to stay on the ground during a physical encounter.

Nonetheless, it is interesting to note that more than half the officers surveyed by Calibre Press reported that suspects had attempted to take them down, and that the suspects accomplished this 60% of the time. Of that number, the overwhelming majority stayed on the ground grappling with the officer (77%). When considering these patterns of assault, they are of the same nature as criminal assaults on citizens. In other words, the mechanics of an assault (versus the mechanics of arrest) do not change simply because one of the people involved is a police officer. [EN4]

To conclude, one can quibble with the exact percentages, but being on the ground happens frequently during serious altercations. Could a person’s being taken down and not having an effective means to deal with the situation increase odds of death or serious injury, either to him/herself or to the assailant? My personal view is that this is the case.

http://www.ejmas.com/jnc/jncframe.htm

[michael]

It does seem that LE training has been changing over the last  few years to include more groundfighting training. I know at my department it has, and a lot of the DT curriculum is based around it. It is still not enough, but it is a start....

[herb]

 Hmmm, im kind of confused Hoch, the Ground and pound method was used by wrestlers, notably Mark Coleman, Mark Kerr, and Dan Severen, agianst the submission based BJJ fighters.
You need wrestling skills to pin and pound.