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[whitewolf]

I reread the posts here and it occured to me -what happens if the water bed explodes from the strain of two bodies ground and pounding on the water bed-
1-does one drown?
2-Are they thrown out of the bedroom window?
3-are they both suffecated from plastic covering them?
4-does the one who is a better swimmer win?
And lastly does the owner of the trailer (single wide) have god dam home insurance for water damage?

As for the post that gives the %,s of police going to the ground -good info..
WW (ELB)

[Benjamin Liu]

As a side note, the FBI states that of 594 law enforcement officers killed between 1992 and 2001, 46 were killed with their own weapon.


This also shows the problem with the statistic some people like to use saying that "25% of police officers who are shot (in some statements, 25% of those who use their gun) are shot with their own guns."

[whitewolf]

Ben that is interesting-shows that more POs should be trained in gun retention in close quarters

Also I have added some to this in Arnolds Bus stop to keep it professinal here
WW (ELB)

[harvey]

These comments are based on a very good article(Sep. 08) in Black Belt magazine on the percentage of time that fights end up on the ground. The article states that the chance of both combatants ending up on the ground is 42% not the 95% that's been talked about alot since the early 90's. This 42% is based on 300 youtube fight videos involving average citizens. I had debates about this 95% number since the beginning. I based my thoughts on real experience in the street. In all the self defense encounters that I have been in only 10% ended up with both of us on the ground. With criminals carrying weapons and multiple attackers you do not want to go the ground but you still have to learn ground fighting and ground grappling because you obviously have to prepare for worst case scenarios on the ground. When I teach ground fighting I emphasize position, transition, and situation. Getting to a safer position either to escape or present your weapon to stop violence or both. Also in the study 72% ended up with one person on the ground and one standing and 59% of those that when down first lost and 33% there was no discernible winner. In conclusion do not go to the ground in a life or death or non-referee situation unless you have no choice. More stats is'nt this great its just chaos out there in the big bad world.
Harvey

[Benjamin Liu]

I had debates about this 95% number since the beginning.

The interesting thing is that it has been known for a long time that the ads' "statistics" were based on a creative mis-interpretation of the police statistics, yet they continue to be repeated as some sort of immutable law of the universe all over the internet.

What I found funny was that the percentages seemed to rise, originally it was "90%" IIRC, then went up to "95%."

Most non-dojo fights I've seen that went to the ground did so due to the two totally unskilled people trading blows, getting too close to hit each other with long flailing strikes, then losing their balance and falling to the ground while continuing to try to flail at each other. 

[harvey]

exactly ben what you say is so true.

harvey

[shastana]

Its good that your dept is having you do more ground fighting, but just like any other slice, anything is good as long as it doesn't become an obsession.  Ground ground ground ground...and more ground.

Weapon retention and quickdraw, counter grappling and takedowns, and your bag and tag restraining...and some ground. 

Thanks for your work knocking back the village idiots!

[grlaun]

We are doing some ground fighting as well.  The limited standing skills we have are decent but extremely limited (in the Academy)  not too sure they will improve once I'm out so i'll be going to training seminar's and classes to keep up the skills.  I think it is a good idea too but would like people with a combative sense and not the Gracies...

[harvey]

My previous statements more apply to citizens fighting not LEO. Ground fighting and grappling skills apply more to cops because people resist arrest on the ground and LEO are actively trying to control the opp. without having to punch the guy in the face. As for the Gracies if you want to learn the fundamentals of ground work then Gracie combatives is a good start you just have change the thinking. Gracie strategy is to control your opponent to exhaustion obviously this strategy is limited. So with some modifications(different strategies not just one) Gracie combatives can be useful by teaching basic ground movement, transistion, positions, and certain behaviors of bad guys when they go to the ground. It sound like I am a Gracie guy I am not.  This is just based on my experience in BJJ and what I know about Gracie technique. I am also going to say that LEO probably do not have the time to rework a entire system and you shouldn't have to. So you need find an instructor in your area with right mind set for stand up, weapons and the ground a person that understands the different missions.  I almost sound like a politician on this one everybody is happy Ha, Ha.
 
Harvey

[whitewolf]

Harvey- makes sense to  me WW (ELB)

[shastana]

Harvey, Hock gave some good insight on countering the resisting detainee. To apply rear naked chokes push down on head then thread arm thru, or push down and move side to side so his face 'gently carressess' the concrete back and forth, back and forth.  Then put on choke.  Good example of 'modifications' to ground fighting for the LEO and EDJ.

Rawhide-show them how its done!

[harvey]

Thats why I have been learning from Hock for 10 years.

harvey

[grlaun]

Harvey, Hock gave some good insight on countering the resisting detainee. To apply rear naked chokes push down on head then thread arm thru, or push down and move side to side so his face 'gently carressess' the concrete back and forth, back and forth.  Then put on choke.  Good example of 'modifications' to ground fighting for the LEO and EDJ.

Rawhide-show them how its done!

I think I 'demo' it on Volume 5 or 6 Unarmed/Force Necessary...!  OUCH!  But it works SO well!

[whitewolf]

Actually I learned this from a former vietnam era Green Baret in Hawaii-but instead of rubbing face back and forth we were shown to take the arm around neck-pull his head back and then slam it into pavement with the hand behind his head 2 times at least-then finsih the choke to put him out of his misery.-either way it should win the war for you- WW (ELB)