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Author Topic: What is knife defence?  (Read 4311 times)

PaulGappyNorris

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What is knife defence?
« on: June 14, 2008, 12:30:58 AM »

Until recently I was very anti-knife carry, as all of my preconceptions were negative towards all those that do, now it's just against the majority that do. However, even though I would prefer to have an 'equaliser', or,  more directly a 'frightener' when a situation may become dire I'm really not sure how a knife can really be a weapon of self-defence? It is made for killing, and most of the knife attack  training I've seen and experienced is geared towards a kill!

I fully understand those in the military, law enforcment or on the hard line of security carrying any type of blade, but what about Joe civillian?

If a knife is carried for self-defence then shouldn't it be as big and scary as is practical to carry, as opposed to a small concealed hideaway knife?

Surely, as soon as you have to use a knife to defend yourself, it immediately becomes a killing intent mentality?


...just a few thoughts thrown together for some feedback.

As an aside. How many people who 'play' at knife training have ever used a blade for real, even on a dead carcass? I've slaughtered, skinned and gutted a few animals, so I'm not squeamish about cutting something up. but to knife someone for real, even when up against the wall? That would really have to be a life or death situation..
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Lone Wolf

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Re: What is knife defence?
« Reply #1 on: June 14, 2008, 05:31:53 AM »

     I hear what you are saying and to a certain extent agree.  I look at it this way.  I am a carpenter and a volunteer firefighter.  I carry a knife every day and use it as a working tool all the time in both of these capacities.  I view the knife as a tool that I have with me all of the time which is just one of many tools around me which could be a weapon.  You know, the one mind any weapon thing. 
     And some instructors like Hock and others explicitly talk about less than lethal options with a knife.  Some incidents I have heard of are ended when the knife is pulled.  Others are over when the bad guy is cut and sees his own blood.  But,  how will it go for you on that day with that opponent?  Who knows?  It's a fight.  Then there may be a whole legal issue depending on where you live.
     But, I see the knife as a tool with a wide range of application.  How your mind applies the tool is the key.  Also, in regaurds to the whole blood/gore thing, you are totally right.  How will you react?  I have dressed deer, seen badly injured people at accident scenes and not been affected.  But when I watched my wife get an episiotomy with kid one, I about passed out and had to sit down.  What can I say.
     As for the size of a knife, of course bigger is better:)  I carry a spyderco manix 'cause you know, a guys gotta compensate somehow.  And the whole mindset thing, well that's up to you to keep it real and not swerve off into fantasy land.  That's one of the reasons I like Hock and why I come to the forum.  Helps me keep it real.

Just my .02. 

Loy
     
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Benjamin Liu

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Re: What is knife defence?
« Reply #2 on: June 14, 2008, 12:46:05 PM »

"Until recently I was very anti-knife carry, as all of my preconceptions were negative towards all those that do, now it's just against the majority that do."

An extremely bigoted and uninformed view.  A knife is a common tool and most people carry knives as tools.  Very few carry, use, or know how to use knives as weapons.  According to an article I read in a knife magazine a few years ago on the criminal use of knives, even most criminals who use knives use them as tools, such as for cutting things when breaking and entering.

Hollywood does not equal reality.  The average knife user is not Norman Bates.



"However, even though I would prefer to have an 'equaliser', or,  more directly a 'frightener' when a situation may become dire"


If you want a "frightener" carry one of those personal alarms.  It probably won't do much good, but it is better than brandishing a gun or knife with the intent to scare and no intent to use.  Doing that would be a good way to get killed.


"I'm really not sure how a knife can really be a weapon of self-defence?"


Buy some DVDs and manuals, such as TM 1-3.


"It is made for killing,"


No it is not, it was designed as a tool that people later used for killing.  Most knives are made for other purposes such as cutting things.  There are a few knives made for fighting such as daggers, dueling Bowies, actual Japanese tanto (well, that is actually a sword) and a few exotic knives, but for the most part a knife is made as a tool.  Specialized fighting knives are only a very small minority of the knives carried, and although I prefer single-edged knives as tools, there are people who like double-edged knives so they can take twice as long before sharpening or so they can have a rough edge on one side and a very fine edge on the other.  Some people also mainly cut cardboard, packages, and rope and almost any knife will do. 

Do you really think most people who carry knives do so for killing?  When was the last Boy Scout Camp massacre? ::) 


"and most of the knife attack  training I've seen and experienced is geared towards a kill!"


Most modern training I've seen is geared towards stopping the attack.  Traditional martial arts do tend towards killing, even finishing off an attacker, but just be aware of that and don't include finishing in your personal practice.


"I fully understand those in the military, law enforcment or on the hard line of security carrying any type of blade, but what about Joe civillian?"


So you are an elitist who thinks "civilians" should be unarmed pesants?  Why should they be treated differently from police and military?  It can't be a training issue, since most private citizens who happen to be practitioners of blade arts have many times more training in blades than either police or military who do not train in blade arts.  Those police and military who do train in blade arts would be more like private citizens who train in blade arts in terms of blade training.  The skill issue is whether someone trained or not.


"If a knife is carried for self-defence then shouldn't it be as big and scary as is practical to carry, as opposed to a small concealed hideaway knife?"

For a fighting knife, a Bowie, Smatchet, or kukri might be a good choice.  Most don't carry knives for fighting, however.  There could also be state and local laws against carrying large blades.

A full-sized Bowie can be easily concealed, even when wearing knee-length shorts and a t-shirt, assmuming you have the proper rig.  If you are carrying a knife primarily for defense and really do want a big knife then you might want to go this route with a Cold Steel Laredo Bowie, Cold Steel Trailmaster Bowie, or one of the Ontario Bagwell Bowies, assuming it is legal in your area.

Another factor is not what is legal but what the proscution will do.  People have acted entirely within the law and have been unjustly, but "legally," imprisoned, and others have committed murder and got away with it.  In a way "what is legal" depends on how good your lawyer is compared to the prosecution, which pretty much means that "justice" depends on how much money you have.  Considering this, carrying a smaller knife without a politically incorrect name is a better choice.  While many people are patriotic, even the word "military" is un-PC and more Leftist prosecutors have used the name of a Spyderco Military against the defendent.  Names like "Endura" and "Delica" are neutral and better choices.  Avoid knives with words like "combat," "fighter," "warrior," etc. in the name.

"Scary" is a personal opinion and not really a logical criteria for choosing a knife.  A fantasy knife might be "scary" but it would probably also be a piece of junk meant only for display, even if it costs over $100.00.

As the vast majority of people who carry knives carry them as tools, they usually carry something as small as possible that would still be useful for what they intend to use it for.  Some jobs require big knives, but most people who use machetes would keep them in their vehicle or wherever they will use them rather than carry them around town.

As for me, I've carried a knife of one type or another since I was a Cub Scout and never really trained in bladework to any large extent until I was in my mid-20s.  I figured that since I always had a knife it would be a good idea to learn to use one in defense. 


"Surely, as soon as you have to use a knife to defend yourself, it immediately becomes a killing intent mentality?"


That all depends on the situation.

You are also missing a few steps in a self-defense scenario.  One is situational awareness to know when a problem is likely to occur, and another is avoiding the problem, and another is evaluating the situation and responding in the proper manner.



"As an aside. How many people who 'play' at knife training have ever used a blade for real, even on a dead carcass?"


I use my survival, fighting, and utility knives in the kitchen and for yardwork such as clearing trees and other vegitation and cut various targets.  I sometimes use big survival knives in the kitchen to prepare food and pocketknives as machetes to clear vegetation for practice in using them in non-optimal settings.



"I've slaughtered, skinned and gutted a few animals, so I'm not squeamish about cutting something up."

Now this is confusing.  You admit to using a knife as a tool, yet you condemn most other people who carry knives?  Isn't it possible that most other knife users use knives as you just admitted to doing? 


"but to knife someone for real, even when up against the wall? That would really have to be a life or death situation.."

Again, you are missing the whole point in using weapons in self-defense.  When using a weapon that could be lethal force, you only do so when the attacker has the ability, intent, and means to kill or seriously injure you or another person.

Take a combat handgun or CCW class to learn the laws in regards to the justified use of deadly force in your state. 
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Joe Hubbard

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Re: What is knife defence?
« Reply #3 on: June 14, 2008, 01:02:37 PM »

Paul

The carry laws vary between the U.S. and the UK.  If carrying is not legally acceptable, you should not carry; if it is, as in most States across America, you have to make a judgement call of whether or not you need to.  When I visited the U.S. back in 2004, I carried while I was there.  In the UK, I do not.  As far as your assessment of whether or not people become a lethal timebomb when they pack, this is precisely why you would want to train in a solid knife system; very much the same way that you would want to approach owning a gun legally- you want to be highly skilled.  This is what is meant by "Skill At Arms."  Otherwise, you are just some toerag carrying a weapon believing that when the shit hits the fan, you will rise to the occasion.  The real truth in the matter is when the shit hits the fan, you will drop to your own level of skill- period!

Out

Joe
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PaulGappyNorris

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Re: What is knife defence?
« Reply #4 on: June 14, 2008, 02:03:18 PM »

Interesting reply benjamin.

As I wrote, it was a post of a few thoughts to get some feedback...

I should clarify, my dislike is/was of people who carry a knife for SD, not (as I do) who carry for everyday use. and, as I stated, my views have changed over time. I should have made it clear but was typing on the hoof,

With regards to a personal alarm? They are as much use as an ashtray on a motorbike.

Quote "When using a weapon that could be lethal force, you only do so when the attacker has the ability, intent, and means to kill or seriously injure you or another person.
"

That could apply to me unarmed, with a housebrick in my hand, or a pair of my wife's knitting needles so what's new? I always assume that any incident will be serious - fortunately for me I haven't had one yet.

The point I'm (now) clarifying, is that the moment you hold a knife in your hand as a method of SD it IMHO immediately becomes a killing tool. To suggest anyone is ever going to be skilled/trained enough to use it "passively" in a chaotic violent conflict is nonesense. A knife, when produced as a means of SD, immediately becomes a tool for killing. No more, no less. Just my opinion of course  ;)

Quote "You are also missing a few steps in a self-defense scenario. "

No, not at all. But I am missing the time to correctly phrase my post. Thanks. Next time I write something I'll be sure to never to write it on the hoof.

I've had a little knife training within the parameters of traditional MA, and a very brief (weekend) course with Hock in the UK, so whilst I'm no expert I have enough understanding to help should the poo hit the fan.

Currently I'm living in France "banjo land" where everbody carrys a knife , but around here there is more chance of getting run over by a tractor than stabbed by a coked up druggie.

THanks for reminding me to think before I post  ;)
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Trainer

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Re: What is knife defence?
« Reply #5 on: June 14, 2008, 05:59:26 PM »

Ok, so I normally carry a folding blade on me at all times. There is NO off duty carry or CCW in Canada. And here is a little something that happend to me last week, I was at the park with my kids, when in the corner of my eye I see a blur. I look and see this german shepard makeing a B line for my seven year old. I did what any parent would have done and went after the dog. I caught it a mere 6 inches or so from my son as it was lunging for him. I hit the dog like a ton of bricks and we end up on the ground fighting. The dog turns and latches onto my face (which now has a shit load of stiches in it) I punch it in the throat and and then try to choke it out while I reach for a knife thats not there. Things got a little messy from there. For my money a knife is a tool that can be used for a great many things not the least of which is defending yourself or others. The difference is really in the mind set. Its carryed it for defence. But i believe that the best defence is a good offence. And here in Canada anything that is used with the intention of a weapon is considered a weapon under the law. It all about intent. Dont fuck with me or my kids and you will be fine. fuck with me or my kids and i intend to do you harm. If I have to use a toothpick to do it I will.

And finally over th elast year every shit rat that i have arrested has had an edged weapon of some kind on them. And they carry them when im not working.

There are people out there that I call professional victims, these folks think that they can go anywhere and say anything to anyone without anything bad happening to them. They feel that no one should carry and weapon at all or even see the value in learning SD. And yet these are the same folks who cry when they get hurt or when PO PO has to lay the smack down on someone.

Ok this post is very fragmented soooo sorry for that, ive been drinking a few wobbly pops and am feeling the effects.
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Nick Hughes

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Re: What is knife defence?
« Reply #6 on: June 14, 2008, 06:24:57 PM »

Quote
sure how a knife can really be a weapon of self-defence? It is made for killing, and most of the knife attack  training I've seen and experienced is geared towards a kill!

Paul...isn't lethal force part of the use of force continuum in self defense?  It's why I laugh when people say something is more legally defensible than something else.  As Marcus Wynne told me once, a shotgun to the head at point blank range is lethally defensible in the right circumstances!!   Ergo, if lethal force is indeed a part of the use of force continuum then a knife can be a weapon of self defence no?

I've carried a tactical folder every day I've lived in the States...I've never pulled it here yet in self defense (which is why I have to chuckle when people on Self Protection.com forum say if you have a weapon then all you're going to do is pull it...what bollocks) but if I was jumped by eight or nine guys carrying lumps of wood and bottles etc I certainly would. 

Quote
If a knife is carried for self-defence then shouldn't it be as big and scary as is practical to carry, as opposed to a small concealed hideaway knife?

In an ideal world yes...but this is why people carry pistols instead of assault rifles.  Nobody argues which one is better in combat but the pistol is concealable, the rifle is not, the pistol can be used with one hand, the rifle cannot.  Lugging round Excaliber or its equivalent might be better than a Benchmade in a fight but the same arguments of concealability and ease of use apply.  As the old handgun saying goes "better the .32 in your pocket than the .50 cal Desert Eagle that's home in the drawer."

Quote
As an aside. How many people who 'play' at knife training have ever used a blade for real

I have.  And I was also acquitted in Australia for stabbing a truckdriver with a broken bottle during a fight one night in a park in Newstead.  He and his two colleagues were drunk at the strip club I worked at (I was cooking at the time because my hand was healing up from one of the two times I broke it) and backed into a car then tried to drive off.  I saw it happen, jumped on the running board of the truck and was taken for a ride while they tried to smear me off the side by scraping along signs and buildings (fortunately it was the a furniture van with a cabin narrower than the storage portion on the back).

When they finally drove into a cul de sac he jumped out and came at me with his full bottle of whisky (sorry Hock...I broke it when I belted him and he dropped it)  He then went down the back of the truck and let his mates out who came out with a lump of two by four and one of those baling hooks for pulling bundles with.  I picked up the bottle, stabbed him once in the gut and once in the chest, sidekicked his mate with the wood and wrenched his knee and broke the jaw and nose of the third one.  The driver then got in the truck and attempted to run me down in the park so I threw the 2x4 at the windshield and he drove off.  The cops picked us all up shortly thereafter.

I was charged with GBH for the bottle and the police, as is their wont in Australia, supplied their own witness who told a version where I was very much at fault.  Fortunately my attorney was a genius (who was later to die of a heroin overdose) and they found the guy who I'd told to "call the cops, those guys just tried to kill me."

His argument in court, which fortunately convinced the jury was "there's only one guy here in court who doesn't have a vested interest in the outcome and that is the witness my client approached and asked to have him call the police.  Guilty men don't ask people to call the cops, they try and vacate the area as the truckies did."

Sad to say the truckies skated on the damage to the vehicle, hit and run, attempting to murder me by swiping buildings, driving while drunk, driving the wrong way down several one way streets (they were out of towners) and the cops weren't charged with supplying a tame witness and nor was he charged with purjury.   

Oh well, that's how the game was played then...(a lot of them went to jail for it later during a Royal Commission into the whole corrupt bunch)

Yer Uncle Knuckles


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Hard pressed on my right. My center is yielding. Impossible to maneuver. Situation excellent. I am attacking.
--Ferdinand Foch-- at the Battle of the Marne

whitewolf

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Re: What is knife defence?
« Reply #7 on: June 14, 2008, 10:32:29 PM »

First-Trainer-hope you  heal  up ok from the dog  bite-proud of you that you defended the boy/Nick hell of a fight you discribed==whitewolf (el  lobo blanco)
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Trainer

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Re: What is knife defence?
« Reply #8 on: June 14, 2008, 11:51:59 PM »

Thanks WW, My issue was mostly with my kids being traumatised. My boy took it in stride my daughter was quite shaken up. I dont want them to be afraid of dogs. I spent 5 hours in hospital, the worst part was that none of the pain meds they gave me worked so I had to get stiched without it. Kids are fine now we talked about it and im healing fine. It the fucking rabies shot that pissed me off mor ethan th ebites.

Nick, enough CD,s write a book already
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PaulGappyNorris

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Re: What is knife defence?
« Reply #9 on: June 14, 2008, 11:53:46 PM »

"isn't lethal force part of the use of force continuum in self defense? "

Oui, bien sur! However, as soon as you use a knife to 'defend yourself' when being attacked you have instantly stepped over the boundary of 'reasonable force, surely? The moment you have that weapon in your hand, and, regardless of being trained or untrained, the knife will be used to its full potential.

I don't know what sweet cereal your parents gave you as a kid Nick, but you sure do seem to attract some unsavoury characters  :). Regarding the bottling incident? That appeared to be a life or death situation, and you were lucky the guy survived or your case would have been quite different maybe? However, in that scenario you stabbed the bottle with vicious intent! You didn't wave it about to try to scare him/them off!

Point being, nobody truly knows the seriousness of their situation, so in any given altercation (despite having superman awareness skills) a knife, when deployed, becomes a killing tool, not a weapon for self-defence per se? It will be used to its full potential every time.

I may seem like I'm splitting hairs, but, I'm simply curious as to peoples differing opinions. Self-defence, and, knife  don't match up for me. I'm one of the 'starry eyed fools' that would like to think  that if I pulled a big F@@k-off knife then any scumbag trying to do me wrong would then run off into the sunset..... not so, of course. I would simply be forced to use it at its full potential - one (hopefully) dead scumbag, and a bunch of seriously sliced up accomplices - I wish  ;)

The majority of reports in the media suggest that those who do carry illegally (in the UK) do so as a means for self-defence. The reasoning is foolish at best, and criminal at worst.

 
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Nick Hughes

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Re: What is knife defence?
« Reply #10 on: June 15, 2008, 12:30:32 AM »

Quote
Oui, bien sur! However, as soon as you use a knife to 'defend yourself' when being attacked you have instantly stepped over the boundary of 'reasonable force, surely? The moment you have that weapon in your hand, and, regardless of being trained or untrained, the knife will be used to its full potential.

Why would I have stepped over the boundary of reasonable force?  I could come up with a million scenarios but the bottom line is people shoot people here and it's deemed reasonable force.  One case springs to mind out at the Uni here in Charlotte.  A women woke to find a man standing naked in her room.  He had a knife and he said if she didn't stop her dog from barking (it was locked out of her room and he came in over the balcony) he would kill her and it.  She said if she could turn the light on it would stop the barking.  He agreed but instead of turning on the light she grabbed her gun and shot him.  He said "damn, you shot me" and turned to run.  She shot him twice more.  It was deemed reasonable use of force (turns out she'd been raped once before up in NY and was determined it would never happen again hence moving to a state that allows weapons).

I just googled "man stabbed in self defense and got 1 million 400 thousand hits...here's the first one...

Quote
HOUGHTON COUNTY -- The Houghton County Prosecutor's Office has made a ruling in the stabbing death of 31-year-old Wayne Clish.

After reviewing the new 2006 self defense laws in Michigan, it was decided that his death did not violate the state law.

Clish was stabbed when he entered the residence of a 23-year-old man, allegedly with the intent to commit a violent felony.

Quote
I don't know what sweet cereal your parents gave you as a kid Nick, but you sure do seem to attract some unsavoury characters  . Regarding the bottling incident? That appeared to be a life or death situation, and you were lucky the guy survived or your case would have been quite different maybe? However, in that scenario you stabbed the bottle with vicious intent! You didn't wave it about to try to scare him/them off!

Nature of the job mate...strong alcoholic content, all male clientele and Aussie's propensity for fighting made for interesting times.  (that story incidentally is another verifiable one as there are court records etc)  I don't know if it would have been any different if he'd died.  The charge would have been manslaughter and I imagine the results would have been the same given the testimony of the witness that carried the weight with the jury.  I.e. they were trying to kill me and there were three of them all armed.  He did see the bottle...if he'd decided to run off I wouldn't have stuck him or chased him but I pulled it prepared to use it but hoping I didn't have to.


Quote
Point being, nobody truly knows the seriousness of their situation, so in any given altercation (despite having superman awareness skills) a knife, when deployed, becomes a killing tool, not a weapon for self-defence per se? It will be used to its full potential every time.

I disagree with this...of course you can know the seriousness of your situation.  If I'm being chased by a car load of guys brandishing weapons and they run me off the road and come for me I know how serious it is.  If there's been a slew of home invasions in the neighborhood by a bunch of armed thugs and I hear my door cave in at 3am I know how serious it is.  If I'm the only man in a foxhole, with two rounds left surrounded by five thousand insurgents I know how serious my situation is.

Regarding the knife being deployed to its full potential...I hope so, otherwise why pull it.  It's the same with a gun...it's full potential is to kill someone...you should only pull it when it's justified to use lethal force and be prepared to do so.  If it's not justified then you shouldn't pull it.  Statistically more people run when a weapon is produced than those who opt to call the weapon bearer's bluff but you should always be prepared to go the whole way or don't bother having the thing in the first place.

As for your wishing the guy would bugger off...the above statistics would bear out that the odds are in your favor they would do so.  (Might I suggest the line "that's not a knife...this is a knife" while you pull out your humungous excalibur replica ;))

Criminal in the UK yes...not criminal here unless you choose to live in a state where it is illegal.

Nick










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Hard pressed on my right. My center is yielding. Impossible to maneuver. Situation excellent. I am attacking.
--Ferdinand Foch-- at the Battle of the Marne

PaulGappyNorris

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Re: What is knife defence?
« Reply #11 on: June 15, 2008, 02:16:27 AM »

You have given me some interesting food for thought Nick. But I think my attitude is geared specifically towards a UK resident - where a "good telling off" is order of the day..

ie. in the UK, if anyone 'carries' it is immedieately stepping over the boundaries of reasonable force.

Not to say I'm right here, but I am interested in alternative views.
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whitewolf

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Re: What is knife defence?
« Reply #12 on: June 15, 2008, 04:31:22 AM »

Paul-I recommend you  move to the USA quickly if not sooner=at least  here we have a  chance in court if we were attacked and it came to our life being snuffed out=presently I am in kuwait-there is a growing use of the knife among the third country  nationals here-so i  have a folding knife kept up in the sun visor/a collapsable baton in my side glove  box and a collapsable tire changer handle under my  seat=if i go  someone is  going with  me..stay  safe,whitewolf (el  lobo blanco)
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Trainer

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Re: What is knife defence?
« Reply #13 on: June 15, 2008, 08:40:43 AM »

Paul, Im not sure if you are here to just stir things up or that you really are that ignorant.

Your comments on s/d are just mind blowing to me. It almost sounds to me that you are trying to make the case of not fighting back.

Even in the UK force in s/d is situational and assesed on a case by case basis. That assesment also includes one VERY important factor, that factor id how the victim PERCIVED the level of threat which is often supported by situational factors.

In my book you get the big hmmmmmmmmmm?
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Nick Hughes

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Re: What is knife defence?
« Reply #14 on: June 15, 2008, 10:33:49 AM »

I know Paul from another forum...he's the real deal.

Nick
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Hard pressed on my right. My center is yielding. Impossible to maneuver. Situation excellent. I am attacking.
--Ferdinand Foch-- at the Battle of the Marne
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