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Author Topic: Fluid Shock Punching  (Read 11032 times)

Hock

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Fluid Shock Punching
« on: June 23, 2008, 12:09:19 PM »

Fluid Shock Punching...

What cha think?

Hock

Milldog1776

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Re: Fluid Shock Punching
« Reply #1 on: June 23, 2008, 12:41:06 PM »

Sounds like more Systema horse shit.  ???
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Tank2

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Re: Fluid Shock Punching
« Reply #2 on: June 23, 2008, 12:46:27 PM »

Quote
Fluid Shock Punching...

Is that the idea that leaving your fist in contact with the target for a short time creates a shock wave through the fluid in the body? Almost an idea of a push into your target?

Not sure if we are on the same page?
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Bryant

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Re: Fluid Shock Punching
« Reply #3 on: June 23, 2008, 02:22:12 PM »

I don't know if you would call it fluid shock punching/striking
but I do know a little bit about physics. If you apply a great deal of force over a long period of time you get more of a push effect. Some of the force of the blow is absorbed through displacement and a smaller portion of the force is absorbed by the object itself. If we start to shorten the amount of time over which the force is applied and also the amount of time you are in contact with the target, you increase the amount of energy that must be absorbed by the target. The surface area over which the force is applied can affect the outcome as well, some people believe old school masters could break bones or damage internal organs at their discretion.

-B.
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Trainer

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Re: Fluid Shock Punching
« Reply #4 on: June 23, 2008, 02:42:17 PM »

Are we talking fluid shock/hydrostatic shock here?
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whitewolf

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Re: Fluid Shock Punching
« Reply #5 on: June 23, 2008, 04:53:16 PM »

Are we talking about using a high presuure hose to  knock um down???? Or seriously are we discussing continuous striking to  set up sort of vibration to the head for example?
whitewolf (el  lobo blanco)
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Hock

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Re: Fluid Shock Punching
« Reply #6 on: June 23, 2008, 05:05:54 PM »

Landing the strike, and leaving it there for a second, thereby spreading the shock through the body (we are a large percenatge...fliud)

Hock

Milldog1776

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Re: Fluid Shock Punching
« Reply #7 on: June 23, 2008, 06:35:10 PM »

Landing the strike, and leaving it there for a second, thereby spreading the shock through the body (we are a large percenatge...fliud)

Hock

I think it's nonsense. That's a push, not a hit.

How do you drive a nail with a hammer? Try to do it with one solid blow, or do you hit and retract? The less amount of time your hammer is in contact with the nail, the more energy is driven into the nail. That's what drives it into the wood.

It's the difference in what Tim Tackett calls "Heavy Punches" and "Snappy Punches". Heavy shots drive people back, Snappy shots drop them where they stand.

Keith
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Nick Hughes

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Re: Fluid Shock Punching
« Reply #8 on: June 23, 2008, 09:39:02 PM »

Bryant,

What you say would be true if you continued applying forward drive into the target (I think it's impulse v impact but not sure of the terminology...I did physics in 1975) but the forward motion stops.  You're leaving it on the target so that more energy is transferred into the target than bouncing straight off...but, the principle behind fluid shock wave is that the strike must stay on target for at least...WAIT FOR IT...3 milliseconds or about 1/10th of a second depending who you listen to.

PPCT made it one of their marketing ploys saying it was more effective and transferred more energy into the target than a regular snapping strike.  There were doctors on their board - and yes, I met a bunch of them at a conference in Orlando in 93 (I think it was 93) as well as attorneys and it was the toubibs who vouched for the concept.

People hear "stick to the target" and assume it means your lingering but really, 3 milliseconds isn't long.

As for snap and thrusting...no disrespect to anyone but you need both.  One of the reasons the karate guys got their arses handed to them in the famous karate guys v boxers in Karate Illustrated back in the seventies was they put on boxing gloves.  All of a sudden they found their snap shots didn't work - and of course rather than work out the padding in the glove absorbed the shock they all decided snap shots didn't work.

Here's the deal based on emperical evidence...snap shots work fine against the head when there's no padding involved...try one against the body of a guy in the UK in winter wrapped in two undershirts, one flannel shirt, a woolen jumper, a leather jacket and an overcoat/raincoat deal and it will plain not work.  That's when you have to drive in a thrusting technique to penetrate the layers of clothing that are actingl like the padding in a boxing glove.

Other applications for thrusting techniques abound.  I've stopped fights - tons of them - by doing one of those big thrusting side kicks that picks the recipient off the ground and launches him backwards about 18 feet pulling down people, tables, and chairs as he goes.  No, he's not nearly as hurt as he would be if I snapped it BUT, the sight of him sailing so far pulling furniture with him causes the uninitiated to believe you can unleash hell on them and they lose all interest sharpish.

In reality you'd better know how to do both.

Nick
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thtackett

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Re: Fluid Shock Punching
« Reply #9 on: June 23, 2008, 11:10:59 PM »

Very true. Sometime you need one and sometimes the other. Sometimes it depends on distance. Sometimes on your follow-up hit or kick (if needed).
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Bryant

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Re: Fluid Shock Punching
« Reply #10 on: June 24, 2008, 07:16:12 AM »

I agree you do need both, it's really situational , what's important is to have the ability to do both .Short and long energy , knock out power , and knock down power.

short energy - snappy - increasing change in velocity throughout the strike

long energy - pushy - high velocity that remains constant throughout the strike

and in speaking of time we ARE talking about fractions of a second

B.
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rasdj

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Re: Fluid Shock Punching
« Reply #11 on: June 24, 2008, 09:13:54 AM »

basics: impluse = force x time = change in momentum(basically change in velocity as mass is constant). so for some applications the longer you apply the force the bigger the momentum change, think follow through on tennis swing or baseball swing. so the follow through(therefore longer contact) is great if the person is, as Nick points out, wearing winter clothing. in non-technical terms, momentum is the "umph".  seeminly contradictory(physics is a fickle mistress) is the fact that newer cars have "crumple" zones which decrease the force you feel in an accident by lengthening - drum roll - the time (stopping time). those who've had the experience of accidents in older rigid and new crumple zone cars can attest to this. once again non-techie terms impulse is the "crack" a handy thing when hitting heads w/ unpadded hands or head gear.

btw for those so inclined in the physics just google impulse-momentum theorem, fun stuff.

p.s me thinks my oft sadistic college physics teacher would be proud to see such pugilistic applications  :-\
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Bri Thai

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Re: Fluid Shock Punching
« Reply #12 on: June 26, 2008, 09:19:01 AM »

Personally I get sick of some arts out there that claim to be "scientifically proven" but then make things up as they go along.  This guy actually got into the science of it all.  I've held the pads for him to, and I can say that he hits far far harder than any other person I have met in the martial arts over a 27 year period.  I came from Shulokai too, where we prided ourselves on our impact generation.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-Syhm3Sq2Sk

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whitewolf

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Re: Fluid Shock Punching
« Reply #13 on: June 26, 2008, 10:47:10 AM »

I understand what Hock and others are stating but at the same time most evey fight i  have seen on the street the two opponents are swinging like hell and i dont think they unless they have been practising "Fluid punching" for years even think about holding a punch for a split second to get that vibration going-they are trying to finish the fight the quickest they can-maybe a sucker punch would work but when it goes all out i dont think the brain can compute that type strike-I imagine Hock/Nick/JimH/dog/tackett/and others can do  it-the average guy -i dont believe he can-am i  wrong??
whitewolf (el  lobo blanco)
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JimH

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Re: Fluid Shock Punching
« Reply #14 on: June 26, 2008, 02:27:45 PM »

Fluid Shock,to me in simple terms,(aside from all the scientific evidence of a strike and PPCT research ),is that fluid is hit and sent into motion causing a wave effect inside the body.
(shock wave)
This would occur on large mass areas of the body ,which contain and or are surrounded by water.
Not good or desired strike areas to me as fluid absorbs the impact and disperses it,not always causing pain or injury to slow or stop a fight.

Fluid shock strikes do not work on the Boney areas of the body such as the joints,feet, throat ,eyes,nose,chin.neck,as the areas do not hold much water around them.(but a strike to a boney area such as the face can impact the brain)
Brain fluid shock can be a good thing as it can upset the balance and or cause a body shut down with a knock out.

Mick Coup clip shows how impact works .
This is also how the 1 and 3 inch punch demos work and get people all excited that it shows power when in fact it shows a pushing impact.

My unscientific two cents.
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Trainer

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Re: Fluid Shock Punching
« Reply #15 on: June 26, 2008, 02:35:26 PM »

i use fluid shock alot, i have found it to be very effective against large muscle mass areas. As Nickers pointed out its also an effective strike mhen dealing with cold weather issues. It gets mildly chilly here in Canada during the winter. That being said I also use the snap shot. I base the shot used agaisnt the target/body part im looking to hit
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grlaun

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Re: Fluid Shock Punching
« Reply #16 on: June 27, 2008, 06:16:06 AM »

Nickers? NICKERS? Oh man, I'm using that!
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whitewolf

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Re: Fluid Shock Punching
« Reply #17 on: June 27, 2008, 07:58:33 PM »

heheh-is not Nickers what you put on your legs in merry old England??That cracked me up this morning-WW(ELB)
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PaulGappyNorris

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Re: Fluid Shock Punching
« Reply #18 on: June 27, 2008, 10:39:27 PM »

Apart from the obvious bullshiteometer going off the scale on this subject - does anyone have a valid explanation of the term fluid shock punching?

Sounds like another catchy phrase to add to more unscrupulous MA/SD advertising....along with the all time favourite 'reality based'!  :(
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grlaun

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Re: Fluid Shock Punching
« Reply #19 on: June 28, 2008, 05:21:26 AM »

Roger that PGN, got my gumboots on through this field!
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Cheat in Beginning - Cheat in the Middle - Cheat in the End
Official Evil Ninja - 2008
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"You tell that muthaf**ka, he owes me money!"

JimH

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Re: Fluid Shock Punching
« Reply #20 on: June 28, 2008, 08:38:30 AM »

Take a water bottle and fill it,not to full,about 3/4 of the way and hold it up or palce it against the wall and punch it.
The action of the water/fluid inside creates a wave.

The body is made of fluid and some try to sell the idea that by making a strike, and sticking the target, that pushes or displaces the fluid in an area,most times a large mass area,the wave will create a further impact on muscle and or organs.

A fluid shock is also seen in a head strike or by causing the head to move by some means:
The head moves violently causing the brain and fluid in the skull to shift and the brain strikes the walls of the skull instead of being cushioned in fluid.

If one is familiar with History of WWII and the Dambusters,or if one is familiar with the use of explosives:
The bomb or explosive device if given a barrier of water between it and the objective,the expolision will cause a water/fluid shock wave which Magnifies the initial explosion (or in the case of a hand/foot ,knee,elbow or heat butt strike/explosive strike).
This is how the bomb for the dam busters was used.

Some are trying to equate trying to strike the human body as with the delivery of a dynamic/explosive impact.

I doubt the need to stick to a target to get a desired effect.

A properly delivered strike/punch will yield a result without the need to stick to a target.
Examples
a Kidney punch
a liver strike
a head strike
Maybe a heart strike
(if we look at people dying from being hit in the chest with a baseball ,we see impact and targeting is all that is needed to get a result)

My unscientific two cents
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Nick Hughes

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Re: Fluid Shock Punching
« Reply #21 on: June 28, 2008, 09:33:43 AM »

PGN,

Not to hijack the thread but why do you have an issue with the term "reality based?"

People lamented for years that learning to defend against fellow students holding their hands in place after they'd punched, defending against attacks such as spinning back kicks, and doing things like x blocks against knives was "unrealistic."

I take the "reality based" to include things like dealing with the screaming and yelling, the onslaught of an adrenalin dump, soft skills, and realistic attacks...so, why the issue?

Nick
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Hard pressed on my right. My center is yielding. Impossible to maneuver. Situation excellent. I am attacking.
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whitewolf

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Re: Fluid Shock Punching
« Reply #22 on: June 28, 2008, 10:22:59 AM »

All=reality based term has beeb used as long as i  have  been on this forum-now all of a sudden it dont make sense??? I have to say it  makes a  lot of sense=reality is the "Actual"-not with pads/shin guardsmouth pieces/redman suit=etc etc-what it is -is
this:
1-PO on foot patrol -3 am -comes around corner face to  face with street person holding a razor
2-PO doing a body search and forgets and gets stuck with a needle while searching pockets
3-Store detective stops a shop lifter and the thief goes crazy and starts to fight and accomplis jumps in
4-Marine drinking in a bar in hong kong gets jumped by 3/4 civilians
5-Navy corpsman gets shot while assisting a wounded Marine but still treats the wounded
brother in arms.
I could go on but you get the idea i  hope=reality sets in PDQ
stay  safe  whitewolf (el lobo blanco)
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JimH

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Re: Fluid Shock Punching
« Reply #23 on: June 28, 2008, 10:49:36 AM »

REALITY BASED is what most traditional arts used to be,fighting for survival on the street and or in combat.
In the late 60's to the 80's most martial arts,what ever art you pick,were not sport based,the primary focus was street.

Johnny Kuhl in the US developed a magazine around street use of traditional martial arts  and his Dojo had a full bar with breakable bottle,glasses ,tables and chairs,so reality in training is NOT NEW.

Reality Based Self Defense is not a new concept,though Wagner may take credit for the term/phrase ,it is a term that has been revived due to need as many martial arts got away from the purpose of martial training ,they focused on sport and competiton and the selling of untested crap that would get you killed.
(the Military and Police departments have used scenario Based,Reality Based scenarios for decades and the Military and Police is where Wagner took the concept from)

Reality Based means it is scenario based rather than just sparring based.
It also deals with more than just the conflict/fight phase.
Situation are created and students work through possible solutions,and the scenarios are replicable,they can be done over and over.

To some Reality Based Self Defense means without tradition and with out having to spend alot of time learning it,this is true to an extent but any skill not trained will be lessened over time to the point where  it takes too much time for recall for it to be effective in an immediate use situation.

Reality Based is a Good term for instruction not based on sport.

It lets the buyer Know what they are looking at,rather than see a traditional(sport based school) ask the instructor if they teach self defense and get a "YES Sport and Street are the same" answer and never do a scenario based on immediate need drill.

...
shock wave strikes with the ultimate shock wave strike being performed
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TlytmtStpdg&feature=related
« Last Edit: June 28, 2008, 10:54:20 AM by JimH »
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PaulGappyNorris

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Re: Fluid Shock Punching
« Reply #24 on: June 28, 2008, 10:50:52 AM »

My gripe with 'reality based' is that everyone and their Mum are using it!

FFK's sake it's a misnomer in 99% of advertising.

"We do reality based karate"
"We do reality based Taekwondo"
"We do reality based Hapkido"
"We do reality based self-defence" ...really  :o?

If you teach a M.art you shouldn't need to add anything extra.



IMO the majority of tools who 'add' this to their slug line of MA/SD advertising are full of bull, and are trying to convince themselves that they teach effective combat when in fact they are teaching a bunch of kids, housewives, fat tubs of lard etc. a few crappy 'get out of jail free' moves.

No big deal. It's just a personal grip of mine  :)
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whitewolf

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Re: Fluid Shock Punching
« Reply #25 on: June 29, 2008, 06:00:07 AM »

PGN=did you read the post i sent on reality sanarios? I wouldnt get to  upset about that word-as JimH states it  has been around. As for the types you mentoned in a dojo including wifes,fat people etc etc-I think they are there to learn not just come to waste   their time.
When i had my school I  had teens,single women,older nurses,out of shape guys-all were there to improve their odds against the preditor.
Every one cant look  like claude Van dam in a movie-
Not getting on your case just wanted to attempt to  have you see "reality" ;) ;)
whitewolf (el  lobo blanco)
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