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Author Topic: esoteric concepts  (Read 2193 times)


  • Kung Fu Genius
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esoteric concepts
« on: July 16, 2008, 03:17:46 PM »

is it better to teach bare bones tactics that work most of the time
with little or no emphasis on abstract principles associated with high levels of skill
or should you insist that the student understands what he is doing
on a deep level from the very beginning...

for example
if you have a student who has "dead hands"
regardless of how many drills you introduce him to
or how many ways you explain the concept of "live-adaptable-fluid-energetic-hands"
either through limited comprehension or laziness the guy just does not get it
do you continue to labor in vain
or do you keep it simple and keep it moving

part b of the question
what if dead hand guy has been training for three months?
What if dead hand guy has been training for three years?

Proverbs 27:17 - Proverbs 24:3-4


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Re: esoteric concepts
« Reply #1 on: July 16, 2008, 04:14:25 PM »

I suppose it depends what do you want to achieve.

Do you want him to be a Instructor? or just competend in fighting?

Some People never get the Hubud or Sumbrada.

As long as he understands Body Dynamics.

Like in Security some people are switched on and aware whats going on around them, some even if you drill them and hit them on the back of the head a few time they still don't get it.
So you give them jobs they can do.

Anyway just my 5 cents, as the Aussie Dollar is nearly even with the US.
« Last Edit: July 16, 2008, 04:36:05 PM by Karl »

Benjamin Liu

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Re: esoteric concepts
« Reply #2 on: July 16, 2008, 04:32:04 PM »

It depends on what you consider advanced and who the student is.  If the student is very good and picks things up quickly, then moving on to more advanced skills should be no problem.

It is probably better to start out with usable CQC skills.  Many martial arts schools, at least in the past, taught building-blocks to more advanced skills at the beginning and saved self-defense applications for later.  IMO it is probably better to do the self-defense first so if the student only stays a month or so he'll still have learned something useful.

I've seen some people teaching beginners techniques that even advanced black belts have trouble with, and these are usually techniques that have a low-probablility of success against attacks that will not likely occur.  :D  I can understand occasionally  playing around with something like that when the real work is done, but to base a class on it is stupid.

I'm not sure what you mean by "dead hands."  I've not heard that term, but I'm guessing that a classmate of mine from years ago fits that description.  This guy would grab someone's hand and try to get a joint lock, putting a lot of muscle into it and still not getting it because he was doing it wrong.  He's look at the joint he's trying to lock and focus on it, oblivious to everything else around him.  If given special attention, he'd improve, but then after he stopped getting his free private lessons in every class he's start losing what he learned and be back to where he started.  This guy did train for years.  Well, he'd not show up for every class, and he'd take breaks for a month or so at a time, but still, he trained enough to be skilled, but wasn't.  He was very rigid and muscled everything, and was supposedly a black belt in Tai Chi.  It must have been that new ultra-tense Tai Chi.  :D  

If this is what you mean by "dead hands," then if he has no comprehension problems (like my classmate did) it might help to explain to him what he is doing, maybe videotape him so he'll see what he is actually doing vs what he thinks he is doing, and give him some individual instruction.  If he is as dense as the guy I described, then I don't know what to do.


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Re: esoteric concepts
« Reply #3 on: July 16, 2008, 06:00:55 PM »

Keep it simple and keep moving - unless the guy is a beginner.  There is some level of patience for those who are trying.

Trying is the key word.  If there is no apparent effort after what I would consider a reasonable amount of time (3 years is WAY too long) I move on.  If its in private lesons the guy is wasting both of our time(?) and would be best to terminate thre relationship.  Clss is open for everyone so you can't spend time around one person.  They either decide they want to learn or they don't.  You can shower the person with alittle attentionto see if it motivates him/her but otherwise it may be best to let them go (I've let several go & my life has so much more meaning!)

It can be very frustrating if you think it is up to you to make the person learn.  Its a 2 way street & the age old maxim "You can take horse to water..." definitely applies.

Keep at it!
Cheat in Beginning - Cheat in the Middle - Cheat in the End
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Re: esoteric concepts
« Reply #4 on: July 17, 2008, 03:39:37 AM »

Hi guys

I am new to this forum, well pretty much to any sort of combat forum, for that matter. Just a bit about myself, a 26yr old martial arts/combat enthusiast. As to my background in the martial arts, I would call myself a Jack-of-all-trades, master-of-none. I have trained in the martial arts, off and on (off alot) since I was about nine.

Arts include Goju Ryu Karate, ninjitsu, Capoeira (my Capoeira nickname is Buda), BJJ, a few lessons in Aikido from a friend who is a black belt and a few other arts that I have "practiced" through books and dvd's. These include Pencak Silat, Escrima and a few others. The furthest I got in terms of grading would probably be ninjitsu, 5th kyu.  So no expert of any art, by any stretch of the imagination, but an eternal scholar and a real sponge when it comes to learning something new in martial arts/combat.

The way I discovered CQC, was quite by accident. I have always known of CQC, but my impression was that it was only taught to those in the military and law enforcement. Despite all the arts I have done before, I always wanted to learn CQC, because I just knew instinctively this is the real deal. So in 2004, I applied to the NZ army, becoz I had this crazy idea of working(training) my way into the SAS. I was working on my fitness quite diligently. Unfortunately my application was put on hold, because I wasn't a citizen of New Zealand. When I did receive my citizenship a few months later, I changed my mind about wanting to join the military.

Anyways, back to how I found out about CQC being taught to civilians. I was looking into what other arts there are to learn and came across the Chris Pizzo site (yes I have read all the post about good ol Lt. X). But hey, to a guy like me who does not know alot of the field, the guy is a salesman. SO I signed up for his e-mails and checked out his site. But it just seemed way to commercial and way too "ten pounds in ten days" sort of thing, so I looked into CQC training in NZ and found the Todd group site, and, because I live in wellington, and there is only one instructor here, I have contacted him and arranged private lessons. I'm starting next week.

Sorry guys, I know its a long post for my first one, but I thought I should introduce myself before I put in my two cents worth.

BTW, in response to the current thread, I agree with the idea of just explaining the mistake or flaw in technique to the student. I remember, back when I was doing ninjitsu, going through wrist lock drills with my sensei at the time, and at one stage he just kept his hand still, and I was not able to perform the lock. The more I failed, the more annoyed and angrier i got and guess what? the worse my technique got. That was when he told me "breathe, relax". I took a minute to calm myself and started again. When I was more aware of my breathing and on relaxing, the better it got.

One more thing. Hock, I have read some of your material and blogs and "big ups" to you for your contribution to CQC.




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Re: esoteric concepts
« Reply #5 on: July 17, 2008, 11:23:38 PM »

Hey hello Buda-glad to have on the ride=Ill start right off and give you a nick name=its
Buda Butt====heheheh  (smile now its going to be a long day on the only forum in town)
Whitewolf (el   lobo blanco)


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Re: esoteric concepts
« Reply #6 on: July 18, 2008, 02:51:34 AM »

Haha.Why Buda Butt?


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Re: esoteric concepts
« Reply #7 on: July 18, 2008, 06:19:43 AM »

Buda-actually we named one of  grandchildren Buda Butt and it stuck  with  him-no  harm  meant-you took it the right way-looking forward to  your  posts-whitewolf (el  lobo blanco)