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[Paul Steadman]

Hello All,

I was watching one of the Training Mission DVD yesty and Hock was mentioning something about the military guys holding the knife back, other hand forward. Is that the norm for the army or was he referring to the camo pants wearing wannabes?

Just confused!

Cheers,

Paul

[Dawg]

I can't speak for the Army, but all the training I received in the Navy during the '80's was this way. When I was training with the Marines in the mid-'90's, it was also with the knife back, other hand forward. The lead hand was used to strike, grab, block and remove obstructions; this was to set up an opportunity for powerful stabs to overcome the enemy. I like the way Hock puts it: "Think of football with a knife."

You know, most of us regular folks in the military receive very little unarmed combatives or knife training; when we're called to handle a situation...we usually show up with some firepower.

Hope this helps!   

[Hock]

There are actually 6 positions (I shy away form the word stances because to me they represent "still photo training" and combat is balance and power in motion). In short, I mean that there is no there is no..."football scoring stance." Fighting is balance and power in motion.

Fighting stances are to

a) photo shoots
b) get your class lined up, organized and ready
b) scare opponents
c) maybe get your mind ready and on straight for a confrontation
d) then it becomes balance and power in motion

In the big picture of Knife fight postions there are:
   1) Standing/Moving - knife up front front
   2) Standing/Moving - knife neutral (somehwer near the hip)
   3) Standing/Moving - knife back
   4) Knee high (or you can work on seated here)
   5) On your back
   6) On your sides


Any knife course MUST include training in all these positions or else it is simply not complete for the real world. And you will probably transitions through many positions in just one single fight.

Many militaries of the world have a knife back stance with the empty hand up front for cover.  The US Marines, once knife forward, then by Quantico committee in 1999? 2000? (I was around there then and knew why and when it happened) took this stance from front to mandatory rear, to the dismay of many vets on the committee.

The empty and up front cover hand has been called everything in the military like "the cover arm,"  "the protecting arm (protecting the knife that is) and possibly the worst, "the sacrifice arm."

a) When two people knife spar and one is knife back and one knife forward, the knife forward person has many tactical advantages.

b) When two people knife spar and both have knife back they are equal players in that sense.

c) when a knifer is confronting an unarmed man or a recently disarmed man , a knife back stance can have advantages as the empty hand can block, strike and grapple and so forth.

d) The empty hand should grab something nearby (I love this phrase "exploiting the environment" ) and use it in his so-called duel. In which case this "shield" would be used like an old warrior, knife back. Shield forward.


Like to break more wind on this, but I its time to eat breakfast!

Hock

 

[Paul Steadman]

Hello Hock,

Thanks mate for the details. Back in my sport karate days I used to naively train with a knife back position in our so-called tanto-dori (knife defence) techniques! Pretty much karate with a knife in the hand. Oh well gotta start somewhere.

In 1990 I attended a seminar in Dubbo (Outback New South Wales) by one of the Presas brothers (can't remember if it was Earnesto or Remy). It was an eye opener, to say the least, a full day of pares/solo baston, doce manos baston, espada y daga and solo daga etc (hope I got the spelling right, been a while). The knife techniques shown, pretty much rendered our sport karate knife defences obsolete.

Cheers,

[Hock]

Probably Ernesto.

Remy didn't actually do or know too much Knife work! People automatically assume that every Filipino MA does. As soon as I say that about Remy sure as can be, some guy out there will call me crazy or wrong. But Remy actually admitted this me this in fact, and when he and I would travel to a seminar  and the subject of knife would be requested, Remy would shove me out front to teach.

Whereupon, way back then, I would do a mix of Ernesto and Inosanto material.

Ernesto was very popular in Australia years ago. He seems to have lost his base. But Ernesto has a very diverse and action-packed curriculum.

[Paul Steadman]

Hock,

You're right it was Earnesto (I remember the name sounding very Spanish). I was in a Shotokan/Goju-kai/Shorinji-ryu hybrid karate system at the time, and one of the local Modern Arnis and Shaolin Kung-fu instructors hosted Earnesto along with Chris Traish (who was also one of my seniors in Kendo back in the mid 80s in St Marys, Sydney).

Yep, the seminar material was pretty comprehensive & energetic (a lot of it went straight over my head) but I picked up some good techniques/principles.

Ciao,

[Jamie Flory]

The army's current knife program, out of FM 3-25.150, show the "fighting stance" with the dominate leg to the rear and both hands about parallel.  Couriously all of the techniques shown illistrate the fighters in a knife forward attitude.  I am not sure how (or if) it's taught during actuall training, only how it's shown in the manual.

Jamie

[Edgedweapons]

I prefer knife in front  when knife vs knife. main advantage is your knife is closer to your all  possible targets. main disadvantage is easier for your weapon hand to get  cornered/jam/grabbed then disarmed.

my knife vs empty hand, i prefer knife in back. and the pro and cons are the oppisite. Main advantage is harder for your weapon hand to get cornered/jam/ grabbed. main disadvantage is the longer distance between your knife and your targets. which may also gives your opponent confidence to strike you.

i hope this helps

[Blade]

Hi,

any suggestions how to defend (empty hand) against a guy with knife in back?Eye jabs for example??
Its not so easy isn't it?

Greets

[Edgedweapons]

Hi,

any suggestions how to defend (empty hand) against a guy with knife in back?Eye jabs for example??
Its not so easy isn't it?

Greets

i practice for an example: straight cross (if unmatch lead ex: left vs right lead) while angling to his out side and make sure im ready to block  probable stabbing angles while i recover.

i like to make sure i have my block motion available before/during/after i initiate with a strike.

as in reacting to his initiation. i try to  intercept weapon hand  while my other hand strikes, then immoblize weapon hand asap, disarm or draw your blade or strike him some more for a KO.

[JimH]

Blade back,other hand out front trying to grab and remove obstructions:
Go to the outside of the forward empty hand and take /work on the empty hand.
Grab it ,spin the attacker with arm bar type movement,or grab the fingers/hand and drop straight down (slightly out to the side) pulling the attacker down to the ground.
Keep moving to the outside keeping the weapon limb at distance.
Deal with the attackers closest limbs.

The Hand Back position in the military allows for the empty hand grab and a powerful thrust, twist and pull to disembowel and puncture/penetrate the enemy.

The hand forward is to slash and cut over penetrate.

Styers and Biddle who were both influential on USMC Knife usage had:
The Sabre stance, an adaptation from Fencing and Bayonet usage,in which the knife is held in the forward hand.
Then there was the neutral position in which the knife was floating around the middle in what was a guard or wrestlers position.
They also rarely advocated hand back guarded.

The neutral/guard stance was most popular

Same as shooting positions.
Pistol forward,where distance to target allows aim
Pistol neutral where target is closer no need to aim
Pistol rear where target is right on you,no need to aim,but need to protect weapon.

My opinions

[noload]

The guy I train with as far as I can tell  uses the back position exclusively and he uses the front hand to hide the blade, clear, distract, block, silence, hit, grab, toss stuff in your face, and protect his face if you toss something at his face. Whenever we do blade vs blade he by-passes the sparring stuff and does something in order to close, matter of fact  he does that for everything.

[Blade]

To train every position is important. It looks like "knife back hand" is more difficult to defend when you don't have a knife. Don't you agree?

bye

[Joe Hubbard]

Any position is more difficult to defend when you don't have a knife!

Jim H is spot on- go to the outside when the knife hand is back.  Slap his lead hand out of the way; as he turns, hook the elbow triangle of his knife hand, turn so you are facing behind him and drop his elbow straight to the ground.  From there any finish will do nicely. 

I am filming Contract 4 in November which will be a ground solutions tape.  This combat scenario will be on there with a twist to the finish.

Out

Joe

[noload]

Hi Joe,
Without telling my training partner who uses a back position I tried Jim H's trick this weekend and got "killed" each time. As far as I can figure the reasons were: he kept his lead arms elbow close so trying to do the hand slap meant I had to get too close; his intention was always to "kill" and not wound; he managed he's former SF with a lot of experience so I was out over my head; I'm getting old and slow.

Next week I'm going to try it on one of our rookies and see if I fair better.