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[Bri Thai]

Hi all,

Years ago us truncheon waving British cops were given different weapons, with my own force opting for the expandable side handled baton.  We got some training, but most seemed nonsense to me, like holding it by the wrong end and magically capturing the bad guys wrist with the handle, and twisty wristing him about.

Someone wised up, because we are now only issued with the ordinary expandable baton (no side handle). 

I've been worjking inside for 4 yars, but am shortly to be let out again.  So I will get this "new" thing and want to know how to use it.  I predict that my brief training at work will be silly, so where can people recommend here to get a good training package from?  Does ordinary stick training apply?

[Hock]

so where can people recommend here to get a good stick training package from? 

Ahhh....let's see now....hmmm...how does....

SDMS sound?

Level 1: Basic intro and stress quick draws under sudden attack
Level 2 Intro to single handed grip tactics
Level 3: Intro to double hand grip tactics
Level 4: Hard core block and strike drills
Level 5: Disarming and Retention
Level 6: The Pull grappling series
Level 7: The Push grappling series
Level 8: The Turn grappling series
Level 9: Unarmed versus impact weapons
Level 10: Combat scenarios


Does ordinary stick training apply?
Somewhat.  But, remember most martial stick training exists in the "myth of the duel" that is stick vs. stick. It is a mixed weapon world and many times offiicers with batons face unarmed people. Just works out that way.

Please see  http://www.hockscqc.com/dms/index.htm

I will be in London this April and teaching at the Police Academy. Granted it is "Train the Trainers" course for three days, but surely it would be open for other officers?  They have asked me to do sessions on impact weapons. Get with Joe Hubbard and maybe he can fill in the contact details...

Hock

[Bri Thai]

Thanks Hock.  I'll see if I can work something out.

My current knowledge is sumed up as "Hold tight and hit on head.  Repeat till unconciousness."   

[Nick Hughes]

Brian,

A couple of other things to consider...

What baton is the force going to issue you with?  A lot of the two and/or one handed thrusting techniques aren't possible unless the baton is a Monadnock Auto lock or similar.  If the UK cops are like here I doubt they'll let you buy your own.

A lot of departments here go with the very simple Green/Amber/Red targetting system.  I.e. if it's low level threat hit green targets such as thighs and shoulders.  Amber ups the ante and you hit joints, collar bones etc and Red is pretty much the head.

Dennis Martin and I spoke years ago about a study done in the UK who were looking to upgrade their current baton (when they had the one about the size of a vibrator)  They ruled out the FMA stuff because when they had it demonstrated it was on the corrections officer who used to participate in the world's strongest man competitions (can't remember his name).  It was in the middle of winter so he was wearing his singlet, a t-shirt, his uniform shirt, a woolen cardigan and then his woolen jacket.  None of the techniques had any effect on him and he was able to wade in and grab the demonstrator.  The only technique that they deemed effective would have been a head shot and they're not going to allow that unless it's a deadly force situation.

(It was a fascinating study BTW)  One of those things you don't think about much i.e. How a lot of Judo wasn't that good in Oz because 11 months of the year it's hot enough to wear t-shirts only.  In the UK and Europe however with people wearing heavy jackets year round Judo became much more effective.  .45s are better in cold climates becasue of cappiliary shrinkage in cold climates and FMA evolved in a place where much of the year they wear 'wife beaters' and shorts.

Anyway, they nearly opted for the PR-24 when the Rodney King incident happened and they thought it would look too aggresive.


Hock's absolutely right about a lot of the training being stick on stick when stick on knife is probably more realistic.  The main advantage methinks to the FMA training is going to be to learn to develop power in your shots which a lot of people seem to have trouble with.

Hope that helps
N

[Hock]

Many of these citizen/ police/military baton issues are in Training Mission One: the book.

Hock

[Bri Thai]

Another point.

My baton comes with this dinky bit of leather on the handle, that can wrap around your wrist (but otherwise dangles about awkwardly).

Would those in the know recommend this grip aid or not?

[Professor]

Another point.

My baton comes with this dinky bit of leather on the handle, that can wrap around your wrist (but otherwise dangles about awkwardly).

Would those in the know recommend this grip aid or not?

I don't like the grip aid.   YMMV.


Look at the ASP batons::




This will get you to there home page:

http://www.asp-net.com


Wonderful products!

[Bri Thai]

Thanks for that.  I believe that some UK cops are issued with the ASP.  However my force hasn't gone for it, and I have to use the one that is issued.

I think I'll get rid of the grip aid thing though.  The way it hangs it might end up letting someone pull it away from me before I even take it out myself.

[Professor]

I think I'll get rid of the grip aid thing though.  The way it hangs it might end up letting someone pull it away from me before I even take it out myself.

They are great for throwing the holder of the baton.   It's a nice little aid for those of us with an eye toward it.

[Trembula]

Grip aid?

The leather thong on the old hickory or oak espantoons looped around the thumb and then the back of the hand. The functional purpose was to 1. help keep the officer amused by giving him more ways to twirl it while walking a beat, and 2. to keep it from slipping out of his hand when "going clubbing."

Dan

[Professor]

Grip aid?

The leather thong on the old hickory or oak espantoons looped around the thumb and then the back of the hand.

And this is a way to keep yourself from being hauled around with your own stick also.....



NO LOOPS ON WRIST!!!

[Trembula]

NO LOOPS ON WRIST!!!

Can we get an AMEN from the choir?!?

 

Dan