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Author Topic: running  (Read 4706 times)

ExJKD

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running
« on: September 30, 2004, 04:45:57 PM »

Thought I'd make it a topic unto itself.

Uh yeah Ninor the thing is I understand your position as an LEO, but I am
not one nor am I a soldier.So ...if I was unarmed and faced with #1:mutliple
guys #2 weapons...and I htink I can get good sprint down a street and
into a public place such as a resturaunt or a Starbu......well actually
I hate that place...Coffee Bean etc, yeah I'm gonna do it.As for your
statement on the possibility of the attacker being a faster runner then
you or me?

Yeah, but as I said I mean run away to a safe(er) place..even out of that alley and into
a busy crowded street/sidewalk.And all that yelling "fire fire" bussiness to go with it.

Thats survival to ME.Again though, as an LEO no I think that you would NOT have that
option.But in any case, when you are being faced with multiple ARMED attackers, the
odds are against you and frankly I do not see any technique or tactic out that that
convinces me it would REALLY crank up the odds, except for just going TOTALLY
feral and hopefully while you have a weapon yourself...even then man..even then...
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"Your guilty conciousness may force you to vote Democratically, but deep inside your heart BEGS for a Republican to cut taxes, brutalizes criminals and rule you like a king!Thats why I did this Springfeild, to save you from yourselves!" Sideshow Bob

Heath

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Re: running
« Reply #1 on: October 01, 2004, 12:50:42 AM »

just food for thought...you have many what if's..so i will post one too..you run..i have a gun..fun moving target practice...if you are currently training in an art you feel comfortable with i think that the what if's will go away no matter how big or small your "attacker" may be. In what if's there is always an answer or some kind of reasoning. At the school i currently train at i dont have anymore what if's because of the great training i get there. So now when i do come up against someone that is larger, i think...ok, now what...i dont panic and blank out or when i studied JKD, and this is just my experience with it for 5 years, is that i am always waiting for the hit so in effect i am always one step behind..now i have an art that i am comfortable with and the what if's are gone.....its not important what art you study if you like it as long as you are comfortable with the art and excel..that is the important part..when you feel confident then the what if's will probably stop..that is my experience working with other students and other people from different arts...like i said..just my .o2
oh yeah..im not a runner..at least not med-long distance...just do your best not to be there and if you cant get out of the situtation...then improvise
and whats posted below is good advice on running "Sometimes the scenario will dictate what you are going to do.... one day you may run, the next you stay and finish."
« Last Edit: October 01, 2004, 02:42:19 AM by huevon »
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bking

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Re: running
« Reply #2 on: October 01, 2004, 12:56:01 AM »

Kicking ones heels up to escape, retreat, or evacuate a certain situation is a valid maneuver, though it is often over simplified by the naive and frowned upon by the proverbial “tough guy” regardless of the situation.  The naive do not understand or prepare for chaotic developments or conditions that would hinder one’s total escape, nor does the “tough guy” (because of cultivated ignorance) understand the importance of maneuvers that could lead to the securing of a stronger defense and/or devastating counter-attack, the live to fight another day opportunity, or the protection of a loved one.

Bryan
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BA

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Re: running
« Reply #3 on: October 01, 2004, 02:36:40 AM »



     I believe running is a good option if it is availible to you.  You may have to use some of your training to create the opportunity to run.  Basically if someone attacks me while I am not working I think the first thing on my mind would be how do I get out of this situation.  Although I would like to stay and beat the daylights out of someone for attacking me it may not be needed.  One of the reason I think running would be a good idea is this: has anyone seen a fight where someone is easily winning and out of nowhere this lucker punch comes in from the other guy and the fight is done.  I could be winning in a defense situation and the other guy gets in that one lucky punch. If I would have got that winning edge in and then ran I would not have been there to accept that one lucky punch.
   Just some thoughts.....  Sometimes the scenario will dictate what you are going to do.... one day you may run, the next you stay and finish.

 BA
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ExJKD

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Re: running
« Reply #4 on: October 01, 2004, 10:59:32 AM »

First of,, Heuvon this scenario I just depicted is not simply a "what-if" it is a very possible
situation; more then one attacker both large males one or both with weapons and
knowing half of what I know puts me in a situation where the odds are NOT  in my
and no base art or system is going to change that, the best option is to try to escape.

Saying that getting proficient in a base art will aleviate all the "what-ifs" is in
my opinion where the true naivetee is, while I do agree that thinking you can
always run away is naive as well ; that however is only because these are people
who have not done the work to learn about real awareness.This is why I put such
important value in reading Gavin de Becker.Matt Thornton agrees.But I am not
going to let this become a forum bicker wich I see as total immaturity, so I will
leave it here:

What Bryan said about family or ploved ones and the need to protect them is a
very valid statement.This is probably what I train for the most.And..if I can get
to a weapon WHEN I DON'T HAVE THE OPTION to run then yes, it's "on" (I
mean if I am by myself and outnumbered as I hypothesized earlier).My point is
that in a situation as I described , the odds are bad for you no matter how trained
you are, no system can change that , and you'd be best to get out by running
if you can.But all this is related of course to  not going to places where there
is a liklihood of encountering violence in the first place.

Now, I hope I did not rant too much here , but too many people I have talked to
out there really think they can take someone on unarmed witha knife...and a big
freind...silly.And usually the voice of the inexperienced.
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"Your guilty conciousness may force you to vote Democratically, but deep inside your heart BEGS for a Republican to cut taxes, brutalizes criminals and rule you like a king!Thats why I did this Springfeild, to save you from yourselves!" Sideshow Bob

Lance_Larsen

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Re: running
« Reply #5 on: October 01, 2004, 01:42:10 PM »

This all seems rather complicated, multiple attackers, multiple weapons, etc. so I'm just going to have to go with what I know for a fact.  If you start from just beyond conversation range and run from there, about the only thing that can hit you is a bullet.  I know from experience that a target that runs towards or away from me is an easy kill.  If someone runs laterally across my field of vision they are much harder to shoot.  If the guy shooting also shoots clay pidgeons every weekend then he's got a fighting chance at hitting a runner, the average schmuck who hasn't shot much or even someone who always shoots at fixed targets usually can't manage to hit a moving target.  If they do manage to connect bullet and body then it is likely not going to be a very accurate hit.  So as far as my limited experience goes, my money is on the runner.

Now if you start within conversation range you've lost your head start.  You pretty much have to go with your instincts.  If you know you can beat Bruce Lee on speed x5 any day of the week then go for it.  Otherwise take your pick.  But my best advice is that if you want to know what would happen, do your best to simulate it as accurately as possible and see what works and what doesn't work.  You'll make better choices when you actually know your limitations and abilities.

If you want to know what will happen if you run from someone with a gun, get the best simulator you can (Simunition, Airsoft, etc.) and give it a try.  See for yourself what is and isn't possible.  From my perspective and from what I've experienced, if I suspected that any one or two people in a group had a gun and the group was going to attack me, I'd hope I had a gun with me otherwise I'd probably run like hell.  You get tangled up with just one of them for any length of time and you'll likely get a bullet in the keaster.

Although talking through complicated situations like this is somewhat akin to a bunch of third graders arguing over whether or not a grizzly bear could beat two jaguars and a rabid muskrat.  You pretty much have to simulate it as best you can and/or talk to as many people as you can find who have been there and survived.
« Last Edit: October 01, 2004, 01:52:32 PM by Lance_Larsen »
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szorn

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Re: running
« Reply #6 on: October 02, 2004, 12:20:39 AM »

just food for thought...you have many what if's..so i will post one too..you run..i have a gun..fun moving target practice...if you are currently training in an art you feel comfortable with i think that the what if's will go away no matter how big or small your "attacker" may be.

A moving target is far better than a stationary target! Statistics support the runner! Essentially, running away is still a solid solution to such an encounter if there are no other solutions. If you are being robbed at gun-point and the robber only wants your property, give it up and hope they go away. However, if their intentions are more than robbery you only have about 3 viable choices- 1) let the attacker have what they want, which could mean your death 2) fight back with everything you have  3) run away. I would choose running away as the first option and fighting back as the second option. Of course, that depends on the proximity of the attacker. If they are close enough to engage, then I might choose fighting back. However, if they are too far away to engage without getting shot I would choose a tactical retreat. For the most part, people are bad shots and they are even worse while attempting to hit a moving target. You have a greater chance of surviving a gun shot by increasing the distance between you and the attacker, tahn just standing there and waiting for them to shoot.

You need to be comfortable with you combative skills, no doubt. However, regardless of how comfortable you are and regardless of how skilled you are, you can still make a mistake or meet that one person who is both faster and tougher than you. I would hate to make that mistake while facing down the barrel of a loaded gun.


Steve
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Heath

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Re: running
« Reply #7 on: October 02, 2004, 12:31:58 AM »

Kicking ones heels up to escape, retreat, or evacuate a certain situation is a valid maneuver, though it is often over simplified by the naive and frowned upon by the proverbial “tough guy” regardless of the situation.  The naive do not understand or prepare for chaotic developments or conditions that would hinder one’s total escape, nor does the “tough guy” (because of cultivated ignorance) understand the importance of maneuvers that could lead to the securing of a stronger defense and/or devastating counter-attack, the live to fight another day opportunity, or the protection of a loved one.

Bryan


 I think Bryan and Szorn good points. This happend in real life but i am not going to use race..etc...3 people were walking down the street..3 more came the opposite way..in the other group one person pulled a knife..quickly one person out of the attacke group front snap kicked the person with the knife, the knife was dropped...the kicker bent down and picked up the knife and that was conflict was over. Weapons that can be fired pulled on you..yeah if you can take off..i did once when a pistol was pulled on me..i saw an opportunity and took it...i had a knife pulled on me and couldnt escape...no way out..but God was on my side that day and i walked away not harmed....all i was saying ( not to be stepping on toes ) is that is hard to get a definite answer on a what if...there are execellent points made here....take them all and apply them in your training..i am sure there will be more.
« Last Edit: October 02, 2004, 12:38:05 AM by huevon »
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Lance_Larsen

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Re: running
« Reply #8 on: October 04, 2004, 03:33:04 AM »

You need to be comfortable with you combative skills, no doubt.

Another point worth mentioning--you need to be comfortable with the possible outcome of any choice you make.  You need to decide before-hand what you are and are not willing to do to survive, since you won't have time to make those kinds of choices in the heat of battle.

I taught a friend of mine to shoot a handgun, and to draw it from concealment.  He got a permit to carry, and was working as a PI when someone pulled out a shotgun and took a couple shots at him.  He couldn't bring himself to use the gun.  He took cover and called the police.  As things worked out the paperwork was screwed up and he would have had a mess on his hands if he had used it anyway.

If you can't bring yourself to use it, then don't bring a gun into the fight.  He quit carrying, and I don't think any less of him for it.
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Nick Hughes

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Re: running
« Reply #9 on: October 05, 2004, 03:57:26 AM »

guys,

Sorry to chime in so late...haven't had access to my PC for a few days.

Steve Z made a comment over on another topic we were discussing about definitions which is important to mention here.  He mentioned that what one person calls "survival" for eg another might call "winning."

When I talked about not running away (when this post first appeared) I refer to turning your back to someone and running.  It's offered in almost every self defense book as a defense against someone with a knife and I discount it for the reasons I stated i.e. it assumes you're faster than your attacker which may not be the case.

Steve Z then went on to describe what I call a "tactical retreat" i.e. backing away, creating distance, placing obstacles between you and the aggressor and at all times keeping your eyes on him.  Now that is a valid defense.  It's not one I can use as a body guard, soldier etc but I teach my civilian students to use it and it's highly effective because distance buys you time.

Hope that helps clarify things a bit.

N
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ExJKD

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Re: running
« Reply #10 on: October 05, 2004, 05:07:46 AM »

Yes Ninor these are valid points I am not saying that they are not.
But my oirginal point was the situation I suggested; if it is multple
attackers with knives and you're unarmed, then your chances of
survival by way of fighting are not that good.In fact they are about
non-existent.

But again, this all coincides with the intelligence to stay away from
places where trouble could happen at all.

Most so-called "streetfights" happen in bars.


Multiple people with blades?

Pray to God n Nike man...God n Nike.
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"Your guilty conciousness may force you to vote Democratically, but deep inside your heart BEGS for a Republican to cut taxes, brutalizes criminals and rule you like a king!Thats why I did this Springfeild, to save you from yourselves!" Sideshow Bob

Trembula

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Re: running
« Reply #11 on: October 05, 2004, 11:33:07 AM »

Advocating running as a primary defensive technique is foolish. Running can be the most effective option in some situations, but the dynamics of the encounter would have a huge bit to deal with whether or not it was a tactically prudent option.

As many of us discovered as children on the playground or facing the neighbor's dog quite a few years ago, things are often okay, albeit slightly tenuous so long as the "face off" or "stare down" occurs. But the moment someone panics, turns and runs, it can ignite a primal, cro-magnon, "hunter-killer" pursuit response in animals and people alike. One moment all parties were all eyeing each other, the next, someone had turned tail and run, and hot on his/her heels was Fido or the local bully.

Unless someone is properly clothed for it and has the sprinting ability (and the distance ability to sustain the run until the pursuer realizes it is not worth it, then the situation has grown immeasurably worse... you can't see the enemy (unless you turn and look behind you, which slows you down), and you hear his pounding feet, shouts and curses, and hurried breathing as he closes the gap, pulled towards you by an inextricable logic that only makes sense to his reptillian-minded brain ready to clip you from behind or tackle you...

Having spent a significant portion of my life in the not too distant past barely able to stand, let alone run, I know it is simply not an option for some people from a mobility standpoint. Or someone may have something (wife, child, friend, invaluable personal possession... etc) that you just cannot leave behind. Unlesss you can just HAUL tail out of there (and if you run that fast, you probably have left plenty of folks wheezing behind you on the track field or football gridiron), you might of just made their job easier.

If you are going to run, something more confusing to the enemy could be to run right THROUGH him, with a gross motor skill strike or "body bump" as an "incidental contact" as you suddenly disappear from his field of view. I see several advantages to this if running is your plan: first, you force him to reorient himself (after a possibly diminishing impact) and turn around before he can begin chasing you. Second, you do not have to turn around, just move straight forward or off to a slight angle - our bodies are designed to go forwards fairly efficiently but lateral or retrograde movements are much more difficult. Third, it lets you keep your eyes on him for a split second longer before you show your back to him.

Dan
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Lance_Larsen

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Re: running
« Reply #12 on: October 05, 2004, 12:18:18 PM »

I think it's important to look at it like Hock looks at knife defense.  You have an Early response, a Middle response, and a Late response.  If we can put that into play in this situation, if you detect the problem early then you are going to be in a better position to retreat.  If you detect the problem half way then you have some quick decisions to make.  If you don't detect it until you are surrounded, then you have a really big problem on your hands.  Which says something about staying aware of your situation.

Retreat from a fight is always a good option, if it's an option.  But if you have a bad knee and can't run, or you know you don't run very fast, or there is some other mitigating circumstance, then you just have to take that off your list of options and work with what you have.

Now to interject a little more food for thought: what about the pack animal instinct to chase whatever runs?  You certainly don't run from a pack of dogs that are running together.  It brings out their hunting instinct and they will run after you even if they were not inclined to do so otherwise.  You look at the ground and walk away slowly.

Does that apply to people?  Or a group of people?  Would they tend to run after you just because you ran?  It would make for some interesting study.  I think I'm beginning to be more in favor of the "tactical retreat".

But there really are so many variables that come into play here.  As Hock says "the chaos of combat".

Edit: I guess great minds think alike.  I posted my bit about pack animals at the same time Trembula brought up the same point.   :D
« Last Edit: October 05, 2004, 12:20:05 PM by Lance_Larsen »
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Mr. Barnett

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Re: running
« Reply #13 on: October 17, 2004, 01:22:17 AM »

Helloooo guys,
just a wrench in the machine, but.................................


[ invaluable personal possession... etc)

In a face-off with death, exactly what is an invaluable personal possession?

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-The natural right of self-defense permits us to oppose an enemy with the same arms he uses, and to make his own rage and folly recoil upon himself-

gumbey

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Re: running
« Reply #14 on: October 17, 2004, 06:30:50 AM »

all i carry is pepperspray. although generally for dealing with loose dogs, it will provide some form of defense, although it has its share of shortcomings. i'm considering buying a neck knife but i do not know how strong the knife sheath will
hold the knife despite a lot of bouncing associated with running. as far as running is concerned, i run at a moderate pace for 3-6 miles and then end it with a 100-yd. sprint.
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Kentbob

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Re: running
« Reply #15 on: October 17, 2004, 01:33:17 PM »

Yes Ninor these are valid points I am not saying that they are not.
But my oirginal point was the situation I suggested; if it is multple
attackers with knives and you're unarmed, then your chances of
survival by way of fighting are not that good.In fact they are about
non-existent.

But again, this all coincides with the intelligence to stay away from
places where trouble could happen at all.

Most so-called "streetfights" happen in bars.


Multiple people with blades?

Pray to God n Nike man...God n Nike.


Just so you know, exJKD, Nike was originally the name of kind of a greek version of the Valkyries.  So, if you're running away, he might not be the best person to pray to.  Probably better to pray to Mercury or Hermes.  The guy with the winged slippers, ya know?   However, I agree, for self-preservation, running is certainly a valid argument.  Especially if you are outnumbered, presented with weapons and such.  However, to look at this tactically, we need a diversion, not to just run helter-skelter in the opposite direction.  In the military, we train to run away from a fight.  Again, if you are outnumbered or against superior weaponry.  However, we do not just jump up and sprint until the bad men can't get us anymore.  Again, we provide a diversion, accompanied by smoke, and usually with some sort of suppressive fire.  Now, if you're in hand to hand combat, I would have to say that smoke is probably out, however maybe you can use something else to divert the bad guys' attention.  Something like a rock, your wallet, I would say something that you can throw.  That leads us to suppress the enemy, and again, since we don't have machine guns, we will have to think of something else.  Strike First!  Strike Hard! Strike Fast!  And...run away, looking behind you as much as possible. When you look behind you, you will slow down.  That is a fact we mostly know.  But if you just blindly run off, the bad guys may have a chance to catch you. If you have some kind of personaly protection equipment, I would say get it ready to be used, if you can do that without slowing down to much.  If you can't get to a crowded area, where someone else will be able to lend a hand, always look around for improvised weapons.  Where is your vehicle, if you have one.  Can you get there and get away in time?  If you can't get it started and get away in time, is there an improvised weapon inside?  (Tire iron, ice scraper, escrima stick, etc.)  Combat, and by extension Self-Defense is a thinking person's game.  Think about your worst case scenario in advance, and what you will do.  The samurai used to meditate on what they would do in battle.  Certain things may not be practical to actively, physically train for, but iff'n you visualise what you want to do, you will already have a plan, and stand a better chance of survival if you don't have a plan.
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Hock

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Re: running
« Reply #16 on: April 26, 2009, 07:35:29 AM »

Interesting to re-read.

Hock
 

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