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Author Topic: Qualified and/or an authority on teaching?  (Read 7733 times)

PaulGappyNorris

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Qualified and/or an authority on teaching?
« on: September 16, 2008, 02:43:36 AM »

Given that there has been endless debate about Wagner (dammit couldn't help but slip him in), 'Kaarlgate' on sp.com, the Death touch master v MMA clip on youtube ..and many more. I'm having trouble in deciding who IS an authority in the never-ending world of combat instructors? Without doubt there are a busload of rubbish 10th dans and dodgy 'ex-forces' charlatans all out to make a few bob and massage their ego. SO...

What in your opinion 'qualifies' any individual to be recognised as a teacher?

Do you think it's possible to have recogniseable 'standards' of teaching/credibilty?

Is there any evidence to suggest that an ex-SF individual is any more 'qualified to teach combat than an ordinary Joe from civvie street?
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whitewolf

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Re: Qualified and/or an authority on teaching?
« Reply #1 on: September 16, 2008, 05:20:11 AM »

PGN-interesting question-here is some thoughts on that subject-
1-Instructing in the martial arts by a "authority" on the subject is open to much debate.
   I have seen quite a few instructors in my  day. Some good   some bad,
   what is important is -what do you get out of the class?
   Just because there is a deploma in the wall saying they are qualified is not as important
   as his real llife experience in the ring and in the street.
   For example-I studied under a man named Howard Keyabu out of hawaii-his
   background was -Father was chinese and taught him Choy Ley Fut (combat)
   Howard was a green baret in Viet Nam-he did not brag about his style he just taught
   his students the art of hurting or worse-
as far as i knew he never was a big man on any circuit or got envolved in the politics-
   But I got a hell of a lot out of his instruction and use his style to this day
   
   I also know a famous instructor (I will not share his name) who for the last 30 years has been in the lime light and he also is a great instructor

   So i guess the point i  am  making is pick out a role model -study under them-and dont worry about the politics-just get as much as you can out of the class and carry  on
in your training

   I would imagine that some of the personnel who are part of this forum have friends who are very skilled at their H2h profession but dont go out and say anything about it.

hope this all makes sense to you-whitewolf (el lobo blanco)
   
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arnold

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Re: Qualified and/or an authority on teaching?
« Reply #2 on: September 16, 2008, 05:42:30 AM »

"The Death Touch  Master"....... WOW!
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grlaun

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Re: Qualified and/or an authority on teaching?
« Reply #3 on: September 16, 2008, 08:25:52 AM »

I agree with Hock.  Material & approach, research, etc...  I also think the sincerity of the individual is important.  Where is the emphasis of instruction:  on him/herself or the student?  I know some VERY good TKD instructors (i have found that TKD is fairly useless, but not completely so...) & some piss poor "RBSD" instructors.  Material is only half the bag.  Although returning to doctrine, an enlightened instructor will question severely what they are being taught rather than accept what they are being told point blank & do a little 'pressure testing' (another over used euphemism) to check it out.  I think a sincere instructor is going to look for 'it'.  Hock & the SFC was it for as it was the step I was looking for from the junk and dribble I'd been taught before.  Working with the Jim McCaan, Marc Halleck, the Professor & Arnold (Arnold would finish teaching me and I had a deer in the headlights look.  He'd laugh and say "There's 12 years of training down the crapper!") and the schlew(?) of outstanding teachers I've had the pleasure of meeting through Hock.  I've found one of the greater qualities is the enthusiasm and desire to improve themselves for its own sake as well as that of their students.  Hock is ALWAYS trying to learn another trick or angle.  I've heard the same stuff over and over again at seminars - but there is always a new thing to learn.

A good teacher never stops learning.
A good teacher is unafraid of another's skill.
A good teacher is more concerned about the student rather than their fragile ego.
A good teacher continues to refine and develop what they already know.
A good teacher seeks the best in a student and works on their weaknesses.
A good teacher continues to develop their teaching skills through various sources.



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whitewolf

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Re: Qualified and/or an authority on teaching?
« Reply #4 on: September 16, 2008, 08:42:15 AM »

Grlaun-sounds good to  me WW
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PaulGappyNorris

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Re: Qualified and/or an authority on teaching?
« Reply #5 on: September 16, 2008, 09:41:07 AM »

"A good teacher never stops learning.
A good teacher is unafraid of another's skill.
A good teacher is more concerned about the student rather than their fragile ego.
A good teacher continues to refine and develop what they already know.
A good teacher seeks the best in a student and works on their weaknesses.
A good teacher continues to develop their teaching skills through various sources."

The trouble with that list grlaun, is it could be easily applied to many crap instructors out there.

And..... I'm not so sure having a big ego is such a bad thing. I can immediately think of three top instuctors who have massive egos but also have some excellent students and have bags of experience and teaching ability.

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grlaun

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Re: Qualified and/or an authority on teaching?
« Reply #6 on: September 16, 2008, 10:20:21 AM »

I disagree. 

There are a lot of big ego guys out there that are good - so true.  Like attracts like.  I don't give a shit about how bad ass some one is - can he make me that bad ass?

'Crap instructors' is an undefined idea - what do you mean by that?  My idea of a crap instructor is that no matter how awesome that person is he/she can't convey the ability onto another.  A good instructor can.  A true bad ass doesn't have to say much but can back it up.  A person who beats his own drum ain't worth the time.

My goal?  To make my students badder & better than me.  That is what makes me happy.

Big egos get in the way of true progress.  Why learn if you already know it all?  That takes some humility.  Do you go to a class to hear some one talk about how bad he is?  Probably not.  You want to learn to be that bad ass.
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Benjamin Liu

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Re: Qualified and/or an authority on teaching?
« Reply #7 on: September 16, 2008, 10:31:37 AM »

I've known some good teachers with a big ego, but IMO that wasn't why they were good teachers.  They were good in spite of it.  Everyone has some sort of flaw and that was theirs.  That is not to say that the opposite would be good either, a timid teacher wouldn't be very inspiring.

It can be hard work finding a very good teacher.  One who is good for one person might not be good for another.  Someone could have all the ranks, military/police experience, competition experience, be an ex streetfighter/thug, ect. but that doesn't always mean they are skilled.  Even if they are skilled, it doesn't mean they are any good at teaching.  It also doesn't mean they are sane.

Association can be a problem.  There are often a few bad apples in any organization, so just because an organization has a good reputation, it doesn't mean that the instructor is good.  It is also possible for an instructor who is unskilled, unskilled in teaching, unethical, insane, etc. to be friends or associates with people with good reputations.  They might not be aware of everything that instructor does.  I've seen many examples over the years of idiots associated, either formally or informally, to legitimate instructors.

It takes experience to figure out if an instructor is good or bad, and experience comes from training under a lot of people and possibly making mistakes and training with bad instructors.

Whatever you do, if your instructor has a "special" training program that teaches that you are only a boy until you are initiated to become a man in this program, mixes Jedi-wannabe training, Tom Brown nature-worshipping wierdness, Davinci Code nonsense, performs "sexual healings" on female students, thinks he is the "Neo-Christos" and some of his black belts say he died, levitated, and rose from the dead, and other insane teachings, run.  ::)  I'm thinking of a specific school in Tucson, Arizona, discussed in other threads, but there is a similar martial arts cult in Phoenix in a school that teaches different martial arts.  Avoid martial arts cults.
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Benjamin Liu

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Re: Qualified and/or an authority on teaching?
« Reply #8 on: September 16, 2008, 10:34:12 AM »

Looking back on it, the teachers who I've known who were both good and had big egos would have been better with more reasonable views. 

They were also young at the time, and the ones I still know have matured over the years and are no longer like that.
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PaulGappyNorris

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Re: Qualified and/or an authority on teaching?
« Reply #9 on: September 16, 2008, 11:05:20 AM »

Defining a 'crap' instructor could be thread all on it's own... ;)

However, in a nutshell it would be someone who doesn't have the ability to match their rhetoric, and, who teaches students verbatum without any understanding of the simple principles of combat.

Again, I can think of half dozen traditional ma, classical ma and RBSD instructors instantly.

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JimH

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Re: Qualified and/or an authority on teaching?
« Reply #10 on: September 16, 2008, 04:12:31 PM »

What qualifies a person to be a qualified Authority on Teaching?

They have to have a Knowledge base :
Wide instead of Narrow is preferred but not mandatory as long as the Knowledge and Material are usable and doable for the students needs.

The ability to teach:
Just because some one has knowledge and ability does not Qualify them to be a Teacher.
Some people have knowledge , perhaps not the ability,but they are Good Teachers.
(Tiger Woods golf coaches for example,not as able as the student but they have the ability to see and correct problems)

The the ability to Enable the student to Learn,Mimic then Progress to Think and Act on their own,becoming self sufficient in their chosen endeavor.

Those are the Traits a qualified teacher in any field possess.

Authority to teach:
Authority to teach should be dictated by the ability to teach followed by Knowledge followed by the students ability to accept the Instruction as a benefit to their,the students needs.

A Piece of paper stating one has put in a certain amount of time qualifies one to state they have Knowledge then we return to the ability to teach.
If this ability is there then it is up to the Buying public,the students to decide if the teacher and information are worth while.

If one wanted a board to dictate who were allowed to teach,many Greats who did not go down the traditional route would have been left out,many who created their own arts would have been left out.
(the Bruce Lee's of the world would have been left out)

Jim Wagner,as mentioned in the first post,is not Un qualified to teach as he has a Base Knowledge to Teach From.
(What Jim Wagner is,is Un Qualified to teach OTHER Certain subject Matter which he believes he is an Expert on but which he CERTAINLY is NOT)

A Former Special Operations member does not automatically have the knowledge to teach Self Defense as depending on their unit,time in and speciality ,they may have had MINIMUM actual time in H2H combat.
BUT
What allows a Former Special Operations Member an Upper Hand in the Field is that They Have Specific Training in Hands On Teaching in their Expert Subject Matter and Related Subject Matter Fields
They Have a Basic Knowledge Base even from a Minimum time with hands H2H subject Matter and they can relate that to students who speak their Language and to those who do not.
(Communications skills)

My Two Cents
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Bri Thai

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Re: Qualified and/or an authority on teaching?
« Reply #11 on: September 16, 2008, 06:04:03 PM »

Defining a 'crap' instructor could be thread all on it's own... ;)

However, in a nutshell it would be someone who doesn't have the ability to match their rhetoric, and, who teaches students verbatum without any understanding of the simple principles of combat.

Again, I can think of half dozen traditional ma, classical ma and RBSD instructors instantly.



OK.  Name that tune!
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Mr. Barnett

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Re: Qualified and/or an authority on teaching?
« Reply #12 on: September 18, 2008, 11:43:08 AM »

You yourself are the authority.  Who else can be? 
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noload

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Re: Qualified and/or an authority on teaching?
« Reply #13 on: September 19, 2008, 06:22:58 AM »

What in your opinion 'qualifies' any individual to be recognised as a teacher?

This may sound trite, but he's a teacher if he has students. He may be a lousy teacher with great skills and knowledge, or a great teacher with horrible skills who is clueless, but as long as he has students he's still a teacher.

Do you think it's possible to have recogniseable 'standards' of teaching/credibilty?
Sure, we have them in public schools. The question is who will develop, regulate and enforce those standards?

Is there any evidence to suggest that an ex-SF individual is any more 'qualified to teach combat than an ordinary Joe from civvie street?

Depends. A friend of mine is former USA-SF and his teaching background is quite extensive and was a large part of what he did. Hook that together with the additional training Uncle Sam invested in him along with combat experience and the qualifications go up when compared to a civilian (like me). So the SF guy should be more qualified with a deeper well of experience and knowledge but that doesn't mean that a civilian isn't qualified to teach.
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Benjamin Liu

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Re: Qualified and/or an authority on teaching?
« Reply #14 on: September 19, 2008, 01:05:34 PM »

Given that there has been endless debate about Wagner (dammit couldn't help but slip him in), 'Kaarlgate' on sp.com, the Death touch master v MMA clip on youtube ..and many more. I'm having trouble in deciding who IS an authority in the never-ending world of combat instructors? Without doubt there are a busload of rubbish 10th dans and dodgy 'ex-forces' charlatans all out to make a few bob and massage their ego. SO...


I saw that "Death Touch Master" video and IMO the guy wasn't so much a (knowing) fraud as someone with serious delusions.  IIRC he was trying to use telekinesis, putting him into the "out of touch with reality" category.  That would be like fighting someone who really believes he is a Jedi or a member of the X-men.

That has nothing to do with CQC.  The fact that he was claiming, and apparently believed, that he could violate known physical laws, should be a clue to anyone thinking of taking his classes.

What in your opinion 'qualifies' any individual to be recognised as a teacher?

The ability to effectively teach his students.  In checking out a school, look at the instructor, but more importantly, look at the students.  Do they seem skilled or not?  How long did they train to achieve the rank and skills they have?  Do their ranks and skill level match?  Do they seem positive and motivated or do they seem negative and just going through the motions?  Do they seem to have mental problems?  Do they see the teacher as a positive role model and/or a friend, or are they scared of him and see him as a bully, or worse, do they follow him like he was Obama?

Do you think it's possible to have recogniseable 'standards' of teaching/credibilty?

This would depend on the organization.

Having a government set of standards would be a disaster.  If that happened we'd all be teaching kid's Tae Kwon Do.

Is there any evidence to suggest that an ex-SF individual is any more 'qualified to teach combat than an ordinary Joe from civvie street?

Maybe for something like military tactics and weapons.  For martial arts, you'd need someone trained in the subject.  An instructor I know gets military people as students and asked them why they train there when they had all this military training, and the answer was that they don't get much unarmed CQC in the military.

I trained under an ex-SF for combat pistol classes, and he was a good instructor. 

I attended some martial arts seminars by a guy who was ex-military (supposedly ex-SF, people were recently debating that, I did not question it at the time.) and he was skilled but not a good teacher (as evidenced by the lack of skill of his black belts) and he was a nut.  Even without the really insane cult stuff, some of the military applications are not useful for private citizens, such as various ways to finish the opponent off after you incapacitate him.  That is not a good type of technique to have in muscle memory if you want to stay out of jail. 

No matter what the instructor's background, it does not negate the responsibility of the prospective student to pay attention and do his research before signing up for classes.



However, in a nutshell it would be someone who doesn't have the ability to match their rhetoric, and, who teaches students verbatum without any understanding of the simple principles of combat.


That is one way to be a bad instructor, but not the only one.  There are many ways to be a bad instructor.
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JimH

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Re: Qualified and/or an authority on teaching?
« Reply #15 on: September 20, 2008, 07:37:05 AM »

Just to add on to Hocks last.

The Green Berets were formed from the OSS.
From the men who parachuted into Europe to cause havoc with the Germans and to help establish and grow Partisan/Resistance Fighters.

The CIA was also  formed from the OSS.

The job today is one of Direct Action Missions,Indirect Action Missions,Guerrilla Warfare,Overt and Covert operations as well as the ability to be Force Multipliers by having a 6 man,half team or Full 12 /13 man team (Teams can also be broken down to smaller cells depending on Mission) with the abilities and resources to acquire,train and supply local/foreign Indigenous populace members and form a Large Military force capable of all phases of Contact with the  Target Force.

Teaching Warfare ,as well as engaging in warfare on all levels is the Speciality of the GREEN BERET ,the True Special Forces.
The others are Special Operations.
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noload

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Re: Qualified and/or an authority on teaching?
« Reply #16 on: September 20, 2008, 09:40:58 AM »

And I don't know if civilians know, but the Green Berets were conceived for, among other things, to be teachers of indigenous peoples.

They are/were expected to become teachers, among others. While other SF forces are not.

Hock

Funny that you mention that Hock because when I asked my friend, and now instructor, what's the difference between SEALS and SF he said "we're teachers".  It's also what he expects us to become too.
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PaulGappyNorris

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Re: Qualified and/or an authority on teaching?
« Reply #17 on: September 20, 2008, 10:02:57 PM »

Quote -"Having a government set of standards would be a disaster."

Can you give examples of how this would be so?

What if the 'standards' were regulated by the 'industry' and not the Government. Would it still be a disaster?
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shastana

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Re: Qualified and/or an authority on teaching?
« Reply #18 on: September 20, 2008, 10:04:20 PM »

I think doing the analysis on teachers and SF, and those with actual police, military and/or civilian street experience, I'd give my vote for best teacher to the individual with the best cirriculum, teaching ability and experience.  That may be the SF guy, cop, grunt, vet, bouncer, body guard, pro fighter.  But the blocks I can use to build the most effective fighting method for ME, then my vote goes to that guy.  Can any of these brave teachers be good?  Hell yes!  If you get that lucky to have those men near you, by all means take advantage of their willingness to teach you.  Consider yourself learning from anyone with a skill, collect and hone the information and skill, and absorb what is useful. (sound familiar? Long live memory of B Lee(s).
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Benjamin Liu

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Re: Qualified and/or an authority on teaching?
« Reply #19 on: September 20, 2008, 10:17:37 PM »

Quote -"Having a government set of standards would be a disaster."

Can you give examples of how this would be so? 


The government would make the most PC standards they can.  Have you ever seen any of the idiotic self-defense "advice" given out by government sources, usually anti-gun and anti-any weapon, and basically telling people to give in to the attacker? 


What if the 'standards' were regulated by the 'industry' and not the Government. Would it still be a disaster?


What is the industry?  RBSD, CQC, and minority arts like FMA would be outnumbered by sport Karate, MMA, kid's schools, etc.

Then there is the problem of the supposed regulatory body working not to set and maintain high standards but to protect the "good old boys" club.

There are already boards and organizations to join for those wanting that type of thing.
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shastana

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Re: Qualified and/or an authority on teaching?
« Reply #20 on: September 20, 2008, 10:18:39 PM »

And you gotta see this
Kiai Master vs MMA
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gEDaCIDvj6I&feature=related

Hey Hock look, its Gandolf!! 
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Joe Hubbard

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Re: Qualified and/or an authority on teaching?
« Reply #21 on: September 21, 2008, 04:22:20 AM »

Just imagine all of the Mater's students watching that in dismay!  They were all brainwashed into believing the hype he was feeding them.

Out

Joe
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arnold

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Re: Qualified and/or an authority on teaching?
« Reply #22 on: September 21, 2008, 05:26:42 AM »

You mean... I'm not a Jedi Knight!?
I've shown Rawhide a few extremely "nasty" things over the years and always enjoyed the "You've got to be shitting me" look. I think I saw it best with the M16 disarm or the ever popular wack to the inside to the ankle. Or was it the love tap to the back of the head? Oh well, so much horrible crap, so few victims!. Where's "Bryant" when you need him?
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grlaun

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Re: Qualified and/or an authority on teaching?
« Reply #23 on: September 21, 2008, 07:29:12 AM »

yes. I think it was all of the above...

Many MANY "You gotta be shitting me" looks.... Lots of toilet flushing in the background as well...
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Wizard

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Re: Qualified and/or an authority on teaching?
« Reply #24 on: September 21, 2008, 09:51:13 AM »

Hey Rawhide,

Speaking of Arnold's "nasty" things he's shown over the years:  When was it again you were going to send out that dirty dozen compilation from the UC Camp '08? 

Patiently waiting,

Wizard
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whitewolf

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Re: Qualified and/or an authority on teaching?
« Reply #25 on: September 21, 2008, 02:12:24 PM »

JimH-I agree about the original GB's-you know President Kennedy had a lot to  do with the VietNam era GB's-

When I was in interrigation school at Fort Holibird Md we had a big contingent of GB's going back to Nam for the third time-all wer professionals


Jumping to today-when I was in Clarksville Tn I  worked out with a  lot of guys from the 5th Group-all were professional soldiers-

They did not have deplomas from martial arts schools and wernt BB's but they knew their stuff-some were boxers some wer into judo or BJJ or wrestling-they knew their stuff

I personally dont care about the paper on the wall I think a lot more of the instructor who will take the time to show a tactic again to someone who  has trouble with it or the instructor who will stay a few minutes after class to  explain a movent to  someone
thats the guy or lady who I  want to learn  from.

As some of the writers on the forum  have  said there are probalbly a hell of a  lot of instructors out there who are great but just dont make a production out of it.

whitewolf (el  lobo blanco)















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Kentbob

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Re: Qualified and/or an authority on teaching?
« Reply #26 on: September 22, 2008, 08:33:30 AM »

About the GB and the SEALS, from what I've read, both organizations are meant to be "force multipliers", i.e. training forces.  The real strength lies with their ability to transition from teaching a small group of Afghan militia, to taking that same group on patrol and conducting successful operations.  I've seen them in action, on patrol and on base, and even though they don't look "professional" (one guy was nicknamed Erik the Red because of his fantastic beard), they are quite capable soldiers, and also very down to earth.

About the instructors, this is a very subjective discussion.  I believe someone already pointed out what works for one person may not work for another.  Me, I don't necessarily need thousands of repetitions in class in order to learn a technique.  I can do that on my own time.  I don't like being talked down to, or being criticized because I choose to study other arts, both of which I have experienced.  I like a disciplined class, but also like the ability to tell jokes and have a good laugh.  Most importantly, the instructor has to come across in a sensible progression, and not constantly skip all over the place, like I have seen some instructors do.  That drives me nuts.


Kent
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PaulGappyNorris

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Re: Qualified and/or an authority on teaching?
« Reply #27 on: October 02, 2008, 07:25:15 AM »

Here's a quote from a UK blog from my old mate S. Morris  ;). In effect the complete piece (this is just a small section) is IMHO a thinly disguised snipe at the M.Art Dick-head who's gym he's been using for the last year. I just knew it would be coming as soon as he found alternative premises....

"People talk about raising the standards in martial arts, but this is usually just rhetoric. In fact, it's double-speak. High level instructors claim to teach self-defence but they've never had a fight of any consequence on the street. They talk about physical fitness and health, but a lot of the ones I've seen are broken-down physically. And we're not talking about some wizened 80 year old master, we're talking about some guy in his 40s or 50s who should still be well able to perform."

Despite writing an infamous 'Satirical piece' on Morris, which incidentally I thought was hilarious, I think he's a damn good M.artist, just not my cup of tea, and he's  right on the ball with his observation about UK martial arts as a whole.

If only he had a Q&A on a forum someplace.... ::)

I think the whole qualification, experience, certification, police checks, 'real experience' etc. etc. is bullshite. The onus is fully on the 'customer' to make sure they are getting what they want, regardless that it may not be what they need. I believe most combative/m.art/self-defence students (me included) fall into the category of 'recreational m.artist' and IMHO the majority (again me included) will probably never have cause to use any of their physical skills during their lifetime..
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whitewolf

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Re: Qualified and/or an authority on teaching?
« Reply #28 on: October 03, 2008, 03:50:10 AM »

PGN=if i  read this right you stated recreational martial artists probably will never use the training during their life time----I would just say  alway  keep training becuase you might be the one who walks into a nest of hornets and the recreational  training may turn into a life or death duel in the sun--stay  safe   whitewolf (el  lbobo blanco)
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arnold

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Re: Qualified and/or an authority on teaching?
« Reply #29 on: October 03, 2008, 04:07:32 AM »

If you never used your skills, then you just didn't "live right" ::)
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I leave you idiots alone for 5 minutes and I come back and you're all dancing around like a bunch of Kansas City faggots
you're all a bunch of slack jawed faggots around here, this stuff will make you a sexual tyrannosaurus, just like me!
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