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W. Hock Hochheim's

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Author Topic: More on the AK-47...  (Read 6622 times)

lakerssportsfan

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More on the AK-47...
« on: September 16, 2008, 03:15:56 AM »

Lakersportsfan,
Jim Wagner has NEVER Been to Iraq or Afghanistan,so How would he Know what the weapon of Choice of Combatants in those Wars are ?

Wow.  Just wow!

Let me ask you a question, JimH. Do you drink heavily before you post? Really. Do you?
Because either you are impaired or you have the comprehension and debating skills of a 6th grader.

One doesnt have to have been to iraq or Afghanistan to know that the insurgents in both countries are using AK type weapons. Its in thousands of news reports, articles, after action reports, photos, records of captured weapons, and accounts of people who have been there. Thousands and thousands!


Quote
The MAJORITY of Injuries to US and US Friendly Forces in those Countries is from IED's.

Which has absolutely no relevance to the small arms that the insurgents are equipped with or their use in the past. I suppose next you will claim that there were no small arms engagements or no firefights in the wars in Iraq or Afghanistan.

And I suppose the insurgents that Israel faced when they invaded Lebanon had no small arms.

In your simpleminded zeal to jump all over Wagner you made some really stupid statements. 

All Wagner said was that the AK is the small arm of choice of terrorists and insurgents. I don't see anything inaccurate about that statement and try as you might to engage in rhetorical acrobatics, neither can you JimH.
« Last Edit: September 16, 2008, 11:09:51 AM by Hock »
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whitewolf

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Re: Wagner, Lies and embellishing the truth...
« Reply #1 on: September 16, 2008, 05:34:51 AM »

What we have here is a failure to  communicate  :-[ :-[-PGN-I think that Jim H is attempting in his own Marine corps way to insure that Mr JW is looked at through a microscope and if found to be a desease than the desease is sprayed so it does not spread any  more-Hopefully you will understand his thoughts and dont get a ulser over this-as a wise old man once said to  me-keep your friends close and your enemies closer-
Remember "You can put lipstick on a pig but it still is a pig" and thats about all illl say for now on the JW story.
Whitewolf (el  lobo blanco) carrier of the velvet lined box
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grlaun

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Re: Wagner, Lies and embellishing the truth...
« Reply #2 on: September 16, 2008, 06:43:27 AM »

Yes but don't say that to a pit bull soccer mom.
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Cheat in Beginning - Cheat in the Middle - Cheat in the End
Official Evil Ninja - 2008
Texas Peace Officer 8/2009
"You're making the wrong assumption that a Marine by himself is outnumbered"
Gen Peter Pace, 28Jul06
"You tell that muthaf**ka, he owes me money!"

Benjamin Liu

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Re: Wagner, Lies and embellishing the truth...
« Reply #3 on: September 16, 2008, 10:07:08 AM »

This "weapon of choice" idea is stupid.  Just 19 years ago Leftists in America started screaming that the gun used by their Soviet comrades was the "weapon of choice" for gangbangers and should be banned.

Insurgents generally use what is available.  If you left a big box of Ruger Mini-14s sitting in the middle of the street in Iraq or Afghanistan I'm sure they'll be gone by the end of the day.

I'm sure most of us know that the AK was designed and used by the Soviets and is a very reliable weapon that even untrained people can use.  That, and the fact that they have been distributed everywhere the Commies had influence makes them attractive to inurgents and terrorists, and probably even regular people in those countries who want one for home defense.

None of this makes an AK in itself evil or somehow have some sort of terrorism energy surrounding it.  It is a weapon.  If Kalashinikov did not invent it, the Soviets would have used something else, and distributed it everywhere in their sphere of influence.
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lakerssportsfan

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Re: More on the AK-47...
« Reply #4 on: September 16, 2008, 10:27:45 PM »

You know, Hock, by moving this thread to guns and gunfighting, you might almost be implying that Wagner has been in gunfights :D

Gottcha!

Benjamin,

This is a twisted thread. All I am doing is disputing JimH's simpleminded zeal that stretches further and further.

Various people brought up credibility issues with Wagner--some were valid and some were stupid. In criticizing someone for credibility one must make certain to remain credible onself.

All Wagner said was that the AK is the choice of terrorists and if you look at the people who our forces and other countries armed forces have fought they have been armed with AK type weapons. I am not making a judgement in declaring the AK evil.

Quote
None of this makes an AK in itself evil or somehow have some sort of terrorism energy surrounding it.  It is a weapon.  If Kalashinikov did not invent it, the Soviets would have used something else, and distributed it everywhere in their sphere of influence.

I agree with you. The AK is particularly  well suited for use by insurgents and minimally trained people because it is reliable, durable, and simple to operate. You have examples of AKs in third world countries that are 30 and 40 years old which still run reliably. You would not see that with a Ruger Mini-14.

I am not trying to suggest that the gun is evil as gun banners would like to. Since it is seen as the weapon of terrorists and insurgents and enemies of the US it seems to have a bad stigma that attracts wackos when they are looking for something to use for mass shootings. Of course if you managed to ban them they would wind up as unavailable as illegal drugs.



 
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JimH

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Re: More on the AK-47...
« Reply #5 on: September 16, 2008, 10:29:35 PM »

Wow,Now I am drunk or in 6th grade because Lakersportsfan does not grasp the concept that Wagner is NOT Instructing anyone in Iraq or Afghanistan in Terrorism Survival.
Wagner is TEACHING CIVILIANS,none of whom In the US or any other country that has been attacked in several years,outside a War zone in Iraq and Afghanistan,has EVER Been attacked by use of an AK 47.

My Point in saying that Mr Wagner Has Never Been to Iraq or Afghanistan  to Know what they are using,means He DOES NOT Train nor has He TRAINED Troops in a COMBAT ZONE,specifically US Troops In Iraq or Afghanistan.

The WAR In Iraq and Afghanistan in which the USE Of AKs and Other weapons of Choice/Availability are used against US and other US Friendly Forces are NOT Terrorist attacks,they are Combat engagements.
When enemy Combatants go up against US and US Friendly Forces  they engage in Warfare not TERRORISM.

When the NEWS Media and other Sources speak of engagements do they call the shooting between US Troops and the enemy Terrorist attacks or Fire Fights?

Lakersportsfan ,I think you Need to learn the distinction between Terrorism and Combat.

When a soldier,dressed in a Uniform or not,engages the Enemy in DIRECT ACTION,meaning we plan and assault the enemy in a head on confrontation that is NOT Terrorism.

When a soldier,dressed in uniform or not, engages in Guerilla Warfare/Unconventional Warfare,Warfare that includes the deliberate attack on innocents  or the INDIRECT Attack  on combatants,such as Road side Bombs, that is a form of Terrorism.

Terrorism is the use of Violence of action to INSTILL FEAR and CAUSE Terror in a POPULACE or Enemy.

IED's in Iraq and Afghanistan used against the common enemy are not terrorism.
(Land Mines are smaller versions of IEDs,they are not a Terror weapon if used against the enemy Military)
IEDs used against civilians in Iraq and Afghanistan to instill fear and turn people away from assisting US and US Friendly Forces IS TERRORISM.

THE Attack on CIVILIANS,TERRORISM,is what MR Wagner claims to teach.
Mr Wagner ,AGAIN ,is in ERROR on the WEAPON of CHOICE for USE In TERRORISM,especially Terrorism outside of War zones since the 1980's.
The Number ONE Terrorist Weapon ,used against Civilians in the World Is BOMBS.

Yes Lakersportsfan,I am a 6th  grade Drunk unable to comprehend,lol.
You on the Other hand have NO Clue as to what you are talking about.
You are so caught up in defending Mr Wagner you apparently cannot comprehend what this drunk 6th Grader is saying,and you cannot comprehend the difference between  a War and Attacks on Innocent civilians and the weapon of choice in either case.


I have explained this difference on this topic more than once,each time it apparently went over your head as you keep repeating that AKs are used in Iraq,so Wagner is Right,LOL.
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lakerssportsfan

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Re: More on the AK-47...
« Reply #6 on: September 17, 2008, 12:03:33 AM »

Wow,Now I am drunk or in 6th grade because Lakersportsfan does not grasp the concept that Wagner is NOT Instructing anyone in Iraq or Afghanistan in Terrorism Survival.
Wagner is TEACHING CIVILIANS,none of whom In the US or any other country that has been attacked in several years,outside a War zone in Iraq and Afghanistan,has EVER Been attacked by use of an AK 47.

No Jim. I think you are either drunk or are a simpleminded man who has the reasoning and debating skills of a 6th grader. That's about the level of sophistication of your writing and arguments.

Or maybe you are on thorazine and live in an alternate reality where AKs are not used in Afghanistan or Iraq.

The statement we are debating is Wagners claim that the AK47 is the preferred weapon of terrorists. He did not specify where or even when. This includes things like the Israell Munich Massacre of 1972. You added your own nonsensical conditions to turn it into a stawman attack.

What type of small arms do you think US forces in Afghanistan face when they engage Al Quaeda in that country?  Al Quaeda is a terrorist organization. They do not suddenly become a nonterrorist organization when it suits your argument?

What small arms did the Israellis face when they invaded Lebanon?

What type of small arms did US forces face in Iraq? Are there not some Al Qaeda there?

What type of assault rifle did you see in film footage with Osama?

What type of assault rifles did you see in Al Qaeda training footage?

What type of assault rifles were used in the Beslan school takeover?

Quote
My Point in saying that Mr Wagner Has Never Been to Iraq or Afghanistan  to Know what they are using,means He DOES NOT Train nor has He TRAINED Troops in a COMBAT ZONE,specifically US Troops In Iraq or Afghanistan.

No, you originally wrote: "Jim Wagner has NEVER Been to Iraq or Afghanistan,so How would he Know what the weapon of Choice of Combatants in those Wars are ?"

This is incredibly lame minded as there is tons of documentation, film footage, reports, articles, first hand accounts, and pictures of AKs in both those places. You might as well ask how someone who was not in Iraq know that they used Russian tanks and armored vehicles.

Quote
The WAR In Iraq and Afghanistan in which the USE Of AKs and Other weapons of Choice/Availability are used against US and other US Friendly Forces are NOT Terrorist attacks,they are Combat engagements.

When enemy Combatants go up against US and US Friendly Forces  they engage in Warfare not TERRORISM.

So according to your distorted logic, when US forces engage Al Qaeda, Al Qaeda ceases to be a terrorist organization and members cease to be terrorists.


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JimH

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Re: More on the AK-47...
« Reply #7 on: September 17, 2008, 07:24:40 AM »

Lakersportsfan,
You seem unable to grasp the concept of War/Direct Action Conflict and Terrorism.
The More it is explained the more you revert back to weapons used in War/Conflicts/Direct action as OPPOSED to Terrorism.

You list a Group of CONFLICTS/Direct Actions in which hand held weapons, with the majority of use being AK's ,as your basis for supporting Wagner.
Those Incidents are NOT Terrorism.

You seem unable to Grasp the Concept that Wagner DOES NOT Teach The US Military,or any other Military Units ,going into Conflict.
That Wagner Only Teaches Civilians and as SAID the Majority of TERROR Attacks Against civilians id done by Bombs.

Quote Lakersportsfan
"So according to your distorted logic, when US forces engage Al Qaeda, Al Qaeda ceases to be a terrorist organization and members cease to be terrorists."

Distorted Logic ?

Al Qaeda is a Group that Carries Out Terrorist activities.
The Enemy we Face in Iraq and Afghanistan are No all members of Al Qaeda.
The members of al qaeda are Not all Terrorist.
Terrorist are those who carry out Terrorist Activity which the Majority of Times is Directed Against civilians as attacking CIVILIANS can cause a Government to alter its decisions on engaging in a War against a Group.
(look at the Madrid Bombing and the Political outcome)
Again you have a distorted View of Conflict.

Have you ever been in the Military ?
If so ,as what ?


Have you Ever seen Terrorism as it is Truly Defined Close Up ?
I Have seen and been to the World Trade Center site on 9/11 and after.
I have lived in London England in the mid to late 70's when the IRA was Active.
I saw the Result of explosions in London  Off Oxford Street,where I worked two blocks away.
I saw the result of True Terrorism when the Royal Marine Band was blown up in Regents Park.(I lived a few Blocks away)
I saw the result of True Terrorism when the IRA Blew up the Horse Guards In Hyde Park by use of nail bombs.
I have been on the British Transport above and Below Ground when the CONSTANT Reminders to be Vigilant of unattended Packages were announced.
I saw the Impact True Terrorism has on a populace,a BRAVE Populace that Carried On  after True Terror activities were carried out.

I Have trained in Guerilla Warfare as well as Direct Action  and I understand the difference that you seem to be unable to Grasp.

You have NO Grasp of TRUE Terrorism and you have ,as Mr Wagner,No Clue that No True Terrorism can be trained for,in the fact that as a civilian populace being Targeted vigilance is the Only weapon and then Vigilance only allows you to perhaps be a little further away from a Terrorist BOMB.
Vigilance /Awareness is what Keeps you alive in a Street Conflict as well.

So Mr Wagner telling you how to jump away and run in a Zig Zag when you see a BOMB is all theory for Him.
Terrorism is apparently all Theory to you as well.

You have shown that you have as Much grasp on the Subject of Terrorism as Wagner.

The view of a Drunken,Simple Minded man on Thorazine with No skills in communications and the Debate skills of a 6th Grader.
LOL


I await your return post with more evidence of use of AK's in Wars and Conflicts as proof of AK's usage in Terrorsim.LOL
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whitewolf

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Re: More on the AK-47...
« Reply #8 on: September 17, 2008, 09:46:53 AM »

Lakerssportfan=a few commentos for your use review and digestion.

1-I hate the lakers!!!!!!!!
2-I see you are in fact a devoted JW disciple
3-You are in all probability a teenager or youngster in the 20,s
4-who really gives a rodants rectoris (rats ass) about AK47,s in the big scheme of things-
   the bad guys are using all kinds of weapons and doing extreme damage to anyone they
   dont agree with.
5-If you  have  not served your country as of now-go  enlist!!!!!!!!
6-You see as a brother marine to JimH (even though i never met him) we stick together
7-When I go up to the big  Marine Corps in the sky Ill pull up on the computer any info on
   you and if i  find that you are envolved with JW ill come back with my Velvet Lined box-
8-Hope you can stand the humor here
whitewolf (el  lobo blanco)   

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Hock

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Re: More on the AK-47...
« Reply #9 on: September 17, 2008, 10:48:36 AM »

Actually, I know a little bit about ol' Lakersportsfan
and...while Lakersportsfan is a devoted Lakers fan...

He is NOT and never has been a Wagner fan.
And he really does know his way around firearms and ballistics and so forth.

This, by the way...
http://www.amazon.com/AK-47-Weapon-that-Changed-Face/dp/0471726419
is a great and fairly new book on the AK-47.


We may have mentioned this here before, that Russia was making a AK-47 Vodka.
http://www.vodkakalashnikov.com/home.htm
You gotta' check this page out and scroll down to the shape of the bottle.
This was down in an effort to get Mikhail T. Kalashnikov some money in his old age.
I want one!

and his bio is here
http://www.vodkakalashnikov.com/biography.htm

Hock
« Last Edit: September 17, 2008, 10:54:32 AM by Hock »
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JimH

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Re: More on the AK-47...
« Reply #10 on: September 17, 2008, 02:15:26 PM »

Whitewolf,
I Greatly appreciate the Support.
When you reach the Pearly Gates,a LONG Time down the road,
When you see St Peter there is Only one thing you Must Tell Him to Pass Through.
Another Marine Reporting Sir ,and You Whitewolf,will Loudly be able to Proclaim you served your Time in Hell.
Semper Fi

« Last Edit: September 17, 2008, 03:05:27 PM by JimH »
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JimH

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Re: More on the AK-47...
« Reply #11 on: September 17, 2008, 03:56:58 PM »

The AK is a Great weapon
Cheap to make
Easy to maintain
Ammo seems to be abundant
The weapon of choice for those in the third world
Weapon of choice for those who have gone up against the US Military Since Vietnam through to present day.

Just not a Prime weapon of terrorism.
Though it is a prime weapon in a conflict zone.

Read the reviews on the Book
AK, weapon of change
The majority of readers claim the author went over the top with
his claims about the weapon.
...
Funny thing thats been on my mind since yesterday.

A person who reads and posts on this site wrote to POWNET (after I posted there about Jim Wagner)

Quote from a letter to POWNET

""You might want to investigate that Jimh  and determine if he is actually a former Marine and Special Forces trooper as he claims. 
 
His writing and reasoning level is about that of a 9th grader or of someone very drunk.  He throws facts about the military around that often don't have anything to do with the topic being discussed.  He is just trying too hard.  He strikes me as a Special Forces fanboy type.  Below is a link where he is making all types of claims along with his picture.  You might want to copy the page in case they take it down."
 
The above quote  seems Mighty Familar,LOL

Supposedly Not a Fan of Mr Wagner ?
Not of Fan of me either I guess,LOL.

At least the first time I had the reasoning skills of a 9th Grader

Got you my Friend,LOL
So smart yet so stupid.

"Whatchu Looking at"
LOL

I write to discuss not debate
I have opinions and I express them as I and others are entitled to





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Milldog1776

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Re: More on the AK-47...
« Reply #12 on: September 17, 2008, 05:05:06 PM »

Vendetta or not...this argument is still dumb.
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Hock

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Re: More on the AK-47...
« Reply #13 on: September 17, 2008, 08:46:35 PM »

Where this all started...
What did Wagner say anyway?

http://hockscombatforum.com/index.php/topic,4111.0.html

Hock

P.S. I am unable to connect different entries into different threads
« Last Edit: September 18, 2008, 06:14:31 AM by Hock »
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lakerssportsfan

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Re: More on the AK-47...
« Reply #14 on: September 17, 2008, 09:46:31 PM »

Wow. We're going to have as many threads about AK-47s as we do about Jim Wagner.

Actually, I know a little bit about ol' Lakersportsfan and...while Lakersportsfan is a devoted Lakers fan...

He is NOT and never has been a Wagner fan.

Thank you. I am not nor ever was a student of Wagner or even a fan of his. I think he is a shady charactor to say the least and seems to be prone to exaggeration, fabrication and other ations.
 
But I admit to liking the Lakers.

I do agree with Bri Thai when he wrote in another thread "It's not attacking Wagner that is causing the problem.  It is the constant, relentless almost psychotic non stop attack attack attack that is casuing the problem." 

So I think you guys have to be extra careful in your criticism of him and be very accurate and verifiable so your claims dont run into the huge credibility issues that Wagner has.

Quote
And he really does know his way around firearms and ballistics and so forth.

This, by the way...
http://www.amazon.com/AK-47-Weapon-that-Changed-Face/dp/0471726419
is a great and fairly new book on the AK-47.

That AK book was interesting but had certain facts wrong and had an antigun undertone. It declared the AK a weapon of mass destruction since it had killed a lot of people worldwide. This is because there many more of them than any other gun of this type out there and they have been sent to all type of global hotspots. Since the gun is sturdy and reliable it lasts a long time and doesnt require much maintenance it keeps going when other guns would have stopped working or fallen apart.

AK47 has become a generic term because there are different varieties of AKs--like AKM, AKS, AK-74, and many more.

Speaking of the book, on p. 72 there is a picture of Osama Bin Laden with an AK. The book comments, "In almost all photos of him, he is accompanied by his AK, which he and al-Qaeda consider the terrorists' most important weapon."

P. 73 quotes essays from al-Qaeda writers: "You must prepare weapons of all kinds.  The most important is the Kalashnikov and ammunition."

Anyway, this isnt an argument about Wagner or his background.  Its a disagreement about a very simple statement.

JimH,

You are trying to redefine reality, history and logic to claim that the AK is not the most
commonly used shoulder arm by terrorists.

It is a simple statement. Wagner did not make the statement in relation to his class or what he teaches or any specific terrorist acts or even any specific terrorist group or date.  He made a general statement that the AK is the terrorists weapon of choice.

Quote
You seem unable to Grasp the Concept that Wagner DOES NOT Teach The US Military,or any other Military Units ,going into Conflict. That Wagner Only Teaches Civilians and as SAID the Majority of TERROR Attacks Against civilians id done by Bombs.

You seem unable to grasp the concept that Jim Wagner simply said that the AK is the
preferred/commonly used longarm of terrorists and nothing more. Its a commonly known and easily researched fact.

Your hatred of Wagner is such that if Wagner wrote that Christians revered Jesus Christ you would be demanding to know if Wagner was an ordained priest to be able to make a
statement like that.

Quote
Al Qaeda is a Group that Carries Out Terrorist activities.
The Enemy we Face in Iraq and Afghanistan are No all members of Al Qaeda.

No, but we do face members of Al Qaeda and they are armed with AKs. You might as well claim that the Italians were not considered the Axis during the second world war because not all Axis troops were Italian.

Quote
The members of al qaeda are Not all Terrorist.

It is a terrorist organization and all members are considered terrorists.  Did they not teach
reading comprehension or thinking skills in whatever schools you attended?

You are arguing over a commonly known fact and making a fool of yourself.

As for your background, it doesnt matter if you are the head of the US Army, because you are doing the equivalent to trying to argue that the US didn't face Soviet Block weapons in Iraq and Afghanistan.


« Last Edit: September 18, 2008, 12:17:30 AM by lakerssportsfan »
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lakerssportsfan

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Re: More on the AK-47...
« Reply #15 on: September 17, 2008, 10:10:44 PM »

Vendetta or not...this argument is still dumb.

You are right it is dumb argument. Regardless of how many fabrications exagerations or falsifications a person made, that doesnt mean that everything they say is not correct especially when they are repeating a commonly known statement of fact.

The AK is the weapon of choice of terrorists, insurgents, wars of national liberation. Its become a symbolic weapon.

Hock, maybe you better lock this thread as it is heading down bullshido road.

Here is a link to an article on al-Qaeda cub scouts training. Note the longarms in the pictures and the videos.

http://www.thesun.co.uk/sol/homepage/news/article774646.ece

Some al-Qaeda people:



Hezbolah flag with AK on it: 

 

Hezbolah supporters:




« Last Edit: September 17, 2008, 11:29:32 PM by lakerssportsfan »
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JimH

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Re: More on the AK-47...
« Reply #16 on: September 18, 2008, 06:55:30 AM »

Just as I predicted more pics and stories of NOTHING TO DO with TERRORISM.

The AK is the weapon of choice as a small arms weapon in a war zone and in Conflicts,and has been the weapon of choice against the US in particular since Vietnam.

AGAIN ,Conflict/War/is NOT TERRORISM.

NO ABILITY to Comprehend the DISCUSSION.

No Ability to comprehend and difference between a Battle Field and Terrorism.

Maybe the Definition of TERRORISM will help:


Definition of Terrorism under U.S. Law:
(1) the term “international terrorism” means terrorism involving citizens or the territory of more than 1 country;
(2) the term “terrorism” means premeditated, politically motivated violence perpetrated against noncombatant targets by subnational groups or clandestine agents;
(3) the term “terrorist group” means any group, or which has significant subgroups which practice, international terrorism.

noun
the calculated use of violence (or the threat of violence) against civilians in order to attain goals that are political or religious or ideological in nature; this is done through intimidation or coercion or instilling fear 

ter·ror·ism (tr-rzm)
n.
The unlawful use or threatened use of force or violence by a person or an organized group against people or property with the intention of intimidating or coercing societies or governments, often for ideological or political reasons.


war :

1 a (1): a state of usually open and declared armed hostile conflict between states or nations (2): a period of such armed conflict (3): state of war b: the art or science of warfare c (1)obsolete : weapons and equipment for war (2)archaic : soldiers armed and equipped for war
2 a: a state of hostility, conflict, or antagonism b: a struggle or competition between opposing forces or for a particular end <a class war>

Can you comprehend the difference YET.

Just in case Wagner didn't read it send him a copy.

Lakerssportsfan.
Are you smarter than a druken 6th grader ?

Look into the Monitor and Say
"No I am Not smarter than a druken 6th Grader"
LOL

Go find and post some more NON Terrorist photos.

Never answered the Questions Lakerssportsfan:
Did you serve in the Military ?
If So In what Job/MOS ?
How do you feel about your POWNET post being taken down ?

LOL

More pictures please
More stories Please
LOL

Lock this thread down
It does not matter to me
I have explained my position ,Ad nauseam
I have found what I needed to know
My Mission is complete
LOL



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whitewolf

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Re: More on the AK-47...
« Reply #17 on: September 19, 2008, 12:01:32 AM »

Someone said "lock this thread down"-IMHO only-if you can have over a thousand replies  or peeople reading about JW-then lets have the same about AK-47,s-this is a free country not a small place where the big guy comes in and attempts to  crush the little guy.

Oh Laker-Hock states you are OK-so be it-I still stick up for the Corps-and JimH-
and-I did graduate high school (1956-i think)-so u cant say i write like a 9th grader LOL

Yes 1956-when I owned a 1955 ford convertable -lowered, dual exhausts-it was really
a cool looking car-it almost picked up the girls by itself.

Weapon of choice for me back then was a switch  blade (no AK 47,s available)

Hock do you remember those days in Jersey-seaside heights in the summer- and palasades park also?????

stay  safe- whitewolf (el  lobo blanco)
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lakerssportsfan

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Re: More on the AK-47...
« Reply #18 on: September 19, 2008, 12:18:14 AM »

Whitewolf, I have nothing against the Marines. I'm not sure where you would get that impression.

Lakerssportsfan.
Are you smarter than a druken 6th grader ?

Look into the Monitor and Say
"No I am Not smarter than a druken 6th Grader"
LOL

Thank you for making my point for me, Jim. Anyone is free to compare your posts to mine and judge the respective writing quality, information presented, and the level of education and maturity that the posts suggest. And you wonder why people speculate what grade you made it to or if you are drunk (and it's spelled drunken, not druken as you spelled it).

It's real simple, Jim. You stepped on your dick by making that inaccurate statement and rather than just let it go when I mentioned it in passing, you jumped all over it by making some of the most inaccurate and absurd attempts at arguments, distortions, and juxtuposition of logic that I have ever seen.

Those pictures were of terrorist groups with their preferred and common longarm.

Are saying you that once the US sent forces into Iraq and Afghanistan al-Qaeda stopped being a terrorist group and stopped using small arms?

And I suppose Hezbolah stoped being a terrorist group or stopped using small arms when Israel invaded Lebanon to fight them and others.

You are trying to contest a simple and obvious statement, that the AK is the preferred shoulder arm of terrorists by adding in a lot of specifications and conditions  and rhetorical gymnastics that have nothing to do with the original statement. Wagner did not say it in relation to anything he teaches, any of his classes, or any of his experience or background, real, exaggerated, pretend, or imaginary. He did not state it in relation to any specific terrorist acts, groups or conflicts.

Wagner did not say anything new or earth shattering. He basically repeated a generally agreed upon statement that you chose to jump all over without considering what he said.

I'm no fan of Obama, but if he said that we are having big problems with the finance and mortgage industry in the US, I would have to agree with him.

According to AK-47: The Weapon that Changed the Face of War that Hock previously mentioned. "It has become a mainstay of armies and terrorists alike, and a universal icon of revolutionary upheaval."

The AK declared the terrorist's weapon of choice:
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/arts/main.jhtml?xml=/arts/2007/07/05/bohod101.xml

"Designer regrets AK-47 is terrorists' weapon of choice":
http://www.signonsandiego.com/uniontrib/20060612/news_1n12rifle.html

« Last Edit: September 19, 2008, 01:43:13 AM by lakerssportsfan »
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whitewolf

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Re: More on the AK-47...
« Reply #19 on: September 19, 2008, 05:12:35 AM »

Laker-I know you are not against the USMC- I guess I  am  just gung  ho about them-lets keep up the threads on ak,s-interesting stuff-better than talking about Smart Cars-
hehehe   whitewolf (el  lobo blanco)
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Hock

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Re: More on the AK-47...
« Reply #20 on: September 19, 2008, 06:33:15 AM »

Summers in Atlantic City in the 60s.
That long, shallow, continental shelf that allowed the water to be warmed and you could walk out quite a ways.

Been back a few times to do seminars there in the 1990s until Bill Pavlik moved away to upstate New York.

Hock

JimH

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Re: More on the AK-47...
« Reply #21 on: September 19, 2008, 10:08:03 AM »

Terrorism is an ACT,not a Group.
TERRORISM Is an act which is intended to Create FEAR and change the Minds of Politicians,Governments and the Populace.
Iraq and Afghanistan ,the War between the US and the combatants,does NOT Fit the definition of Terrorism.
Now Terrorist acts do happen like bombings at Market places in which Civilian populace who get along with US Forces are Targeted to instill Fear in them,to make them believe more violence will happen to them unexpectedly if they continue to aid the enemy.

Al Qaeda is a Group who have members on board who carry out Terrorist acts.

Al Qaeda also is the name NOW thrown about for all who have taken up cause against the US around the world.

When the US Marines were bombed in 1983 in Beirut,they did not know and or Hear of Al Qaeda.
(Bin Laden was a Blip on the screen)

When the US Army Rangers fought in Somalia they did not Know they were fighting factions of Al Qaeda.

The battlefield in Iraq is not against Al qaeda,it is against armed opponents of a US Military in the Middle East with some members of Al Qaeda found.
the Majority we fight there are former Saddam forces members and people associated with clerics and Religious figures.

The War in Afghanistan is again against those who do not want the US on mid East Soil.
Afghanistan has a force which is directly under the banner of al Qaeda,which have been around since the war with the Soviets.

They fight us with methods they learned from us and the British,but it is a Direct Action Conflict,not a Terrorism fight.

Because people in a country have access to a weapon,that makes it  a weapon of choice
Not a Terrorist weapon.

You put up a picture of Men ,woman and children protesting in England/London and you use that as proof of Terrorism?
Drawings of AK's ?

In the 1980's I worked with,trained with and trained members of what were then  Afghan Freedom Fighters inside the confines /borders of the US.
These people later became al Qaeda and are the elders of those we fight there today.
They were not Terrorists then ,though they were fighting the Russians with AK's and other weapons which progressed to more serious and War changing weapons as well as more defined training to be able to go against and defeat Russian troops ,who happen to  fight en mass.


Again Lakerssportsfan,you may have knowledge of weapons.
You may think you know what is or is not Terrorism but by your posts you have no clue.
I even posted the definitions as found in the dictionary of Terrorism and War,
Obvious differences  and you still insist you are correct.

It is you my friend who have a approach to the discussion and lack of knowledge on the subject matter.
Much Like Wagner.
Sorry you and He have No Clue.

Much like Wagner ??
No,LOl.
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lakerssportsfan

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Re: More on the AK-47...
« Reply #22 on: September 19, 2008, 04:42:41 PM »

Whitewolf,

I am not sure how I feel about smart cars. They look cute but don't have much space and I would not want to be in one if it got into an accident. Maybe we need to start a thread about Wagner driving a smart car around while looking for terrorists with AKs.

Terrorism is an ACT,not a Group.

Okay, so now you claim there is no such thing as a terrorist group as listed among other places by the US Department of State: http://www.state.gov/s/ct/rls/fs/37191.htm who state: "The Office of the Coordinator for Counterterrorism in the State Department (S/CT) continually monitors the activities of terrorist groups."  But according to JimH, terrorism is an act and not a group, so why are they wasting their time monitoring terrorist groups?

Quote
Iraq and Afghanistan ,the War between the US and the combatants,does NOT Fit the definition of Terrorism.

Some of the enemy combatants are members of terrorist groups and they are using AKs.  The fact that we are at war does not mean they are no longer members of terrorist groups or that they have stopped using small arms as you have tried to suggest in other posts.

Here are some links that refer to terrorists being engaged in situations JimH claims terrorists do not exist:

Iraqi, U.S. Forces Kill Three al-Qaida Terrorists
http://www.defenselink.mil/news/newsarticle.aspx?id=50159

"I recall the day CSM Robert Prosser shot a terrorist point-blank, probably close enough to leave powder burns."
http://politicscentral.com/2006/10/20/ak47_the_weapon_that_changed_t.php

Coalition Targets al Qaeda Networks Aiding Foreign Terrorists: (foreign terrorists, Jim)
http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/library/news/2007/09/mil-070911-afps01.htm

Quote
Al Qaeda is a Group who have members on board who carry out Terrorist acts.

The State Department's current List of Designated Foreign Terrorist Organizations (AKA terrorist groups) lists Al Qaeda. You probably need to contact them and recite you vast background and explain to them that Al Qaeda is not a terrorist group and members of al Qaeda are not terrorists but only carry out terrorist acts.

Quote
When the US Marines were bombed in 1983 in Beirut,they did not know and or Hear of Al Qaeda.

And that has nothing to do with anything. That doesn't mean that al Qaeda is not a terrorist group, that it is the only terrorist group, or that terrorist groups did not exist before al Qaeda or that the AK is not the preferred and common assault rifle of terrorist groups.

Quote
The battlefield in Iraq is not against Al qaeda,it is against armed opponents of a US Military in the Middle East with some members of Al Qaeda found.

Another non-sequitur typical of very poor reasoning. It's like saying that the majority of the Iraqi troops we fought were not members of the Republican Guard so therefore we didn't fight any members of the Republican guard.

Quote
They fight us with methods they learned from us and the British,but it is a Direct Action Conflict,not a Terrorism fight.

So according to your illogical train of though, when the US forces fight them, members of al Qaeda cease being terrorists.

Quote
You put up a picture of Men ,woman and children protesting in England/London and you use that as proof of Terrorism?
Drawings of AK's ?

I guess the fact that they were pictures of the flag of a terrorist group, Hezbollah, which has an AK on it has nothing to do with the topic of debate regarding terrorists and AKs.

Quote
Again Lakerssportsfan,you may have knowledge of weapons.
You may think you know what is or is not Terrorism but by your posts you have no clue.
I even posted the definitions as found in the dictionary of Terrorism and War,
Obvious differences  and you still insist you are correct.

All of which had nothing to do with the subject at hand. I posted you quotes from several sources that declared the AK to be the prefered weapon of terrorists, which is what the original debate was about. 

Here are some further quotes that illustrate this point:

"If Vietnam had paved the way for the Kalashnikov as an icon of liberation, Munich would be the first signpost on the road to its incarnation as the terrorist’s gun and that of the Palestinian terrorist in particular.”
AK-47: The Story of a Gun by Michael Hodges (antigun book and not all that much info--don't buy it)

"The most popular firearm in third world countries and in the hands of terrorists is most
certainly the Kalashnikov AK-47 and its variations."
 Guns in Combat. Edited by Bishop and Donald.

"Originating in the Soviet Union over half a century ago, the Avtomat Kalashnikova (AK 47) assault rifle has emerged as the most popular weapon among terrorist groups."
An Encyclopaedia Survey of Global Terrorism in 21st Century by R.K. Pruthi
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Benjamin Liu

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Re: More on the AK-47...
« Reply #23 on: September 19, 2008, 04:56:07 PM »

"Designer regrets AK-47 is terrorists' weapon of choice"


I guess he thinks it is OK that he designed it for one of the most murderous dictators in history.  ::)

And that government he designed it for is the same one responsible for distributing it all over the Third World.



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JimH

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Re: More on the AK-47...
« Reply #24 on: September 19, 2008, 06:05:39 PM »

Lakerssportsfan,
Youare really not that stupid are you ?

Terrorism is NOT a Group it is an Act.
Terrorists are groups and people,lol.
Terrorists carry Out Terrorism.
Terrorism does not happen alone.

Are you sure you are not Wagner with your make square pegs fit into round holes thinking?

No matter how you change it
All Combatants in Iraq are not Terrorists,they are combantants on the field of Battle.
Between 2003 and 2006 it was estimated that 151,000 Iraqis were dead as a result of the WAR,were they ALL Terrorists?
Were they ALL Al Qaeda?
Combatants use weapons to fight.
Terrorists use weapons to create fear.

This has been explained over and over,you are just to limited to see the concept.

Saddam did not need Al Qaeda in Iraq as Saddam was capable of having and exporting Terrorism himself.
Documents showed that SADDAM ran Terrorist (note the spelling) training Camps.
(this is why Bill Clinton started the Campaign to Kill off of /End  Saddams run of power)

All of your "further Illustrations "just show what I have already said.
The AK is the Most popular weapon in the third world.
The fact that a firearm is most popular by Many groups does not make it  a weapon of Terrorism.

Terrorism:is an act,is not a Group
(Note the spelling)

Terrorist:are singular  or a group of people
(note the spelling)

So members of the IRA are ALL Terrorists ?
So members of the KKK are all Terrorists ?
So All the VC  during the Vietnam war were Terrorists ?
So All the Somali fighters are terrorists?
So All members of Anti Abortion groups are Terrorists?
So members of any group in which some members carried out Terrorist acts are ALL Terrorists?
Is Bill Ayers a Terrorist?
If so and Obama is in his,Ayers,circle of friends should we assume Obama is a terrorist?
(Sorry all these groups do not use AK's)

Was the Persian Gulf War against Terrorists ?
The same people
Same place
They used the same AK's,along with other weapons.

What is the difference?
Several hundred Non Iraqis showing up on the battlefield now with AKs,Oh oh must be
Al Qaeda.

Terrorists use  Terror to instill Fear into the populace,War is NOT Terrorism.


Again Lakerssportsfan,
Are you  sure you are an adult ?
Are you sure you are NOT Jim Wagner.

Please post more pictures and stories of people using AKs,they surely ALL Must be Terrorists,lol.



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JimH

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Re: More on the AK-47...
« Reply #25 on: September 19, 2008, 08:35:26 PM »

Lakerssportsfan,
Here is some clarity for you.
(maybe not for you as you seem to by pass clarity)

Note the word ENEMY COMBATANT

The Guantanamo Bay Detention Camp is a controversial[1] United States detention center operated by Joint Task Force Guantanamo since 2002 in Guantanamo Bay Naval Base, which is on the shore of Guantánamo Bay, Cuba.[2] The detainment areas consist of three camps in the base: Camp Delta (which includes Camp Echo), Camp Iguana, and Camp X-Ray (which has been closed). The facility is often referred to as Guantanamo, or Gitmo (derived from the abbreviation "GTMO").[3][4] The detainees currently held as of June 2008 have been classified by the United States as "enemy combatants". After claims were made that these detainees were not entitled to any of the protections of the Geneva Conventions, the U.S. Supreme Court ruled on 29 June 2006 that they were entitled to the minimal protections listed under its Common Article 3.

Enemy Combatant defined.

The term enemy combatant has historically referred to members of the armed forces of the state with which another state is at war.[1][2] Prior to 2008, the definition was: "Any person in an armed conflict who could be properly detained under the laws and customs of war." In the case of a civil war or an insurrection the term "enemy state" may be replaced by the more general term "Party to the conflict" (as described in the 1949 Geneva Conventions Article 3).[3]

Under the provisions of the Secretary of the Navy Memorandum Implementation of Combatant Status Review Tribunal Procedures for Enemy Combatant Detained at Guantanamo Bay Naval Base Cuba ... An enemy combatant has been defined as "an individual who was part of or supporting the Taliban or al Qaida forces, or associated forces that are engaged in hostilities against the United States or its coalition partners. This includes any person who committed a belligerent act or has directly supported hostilities in aid of enemy armed forces." [6]


enemy Combatant who supports or is part of the Taliban or Al Qaeda and are engaged in HOSTILITIES against the US and or its Coalition Partners.

Do you see the word engaged in TERRORISM or engaged in TERRORIST Acts or the Term TERRORISTS ?
NO

A large Number of enemy combatants have been returned to their Countries.

So did they return TERRORISTS ?

Now show me some more of your Great Pictures and Stories.

Post some more sites that define Terrorism,Terrorists and the such.

As Said You and your buddy Wagner have NO CLUE.

Wagner was NOT speaking of the WAR in Iraq or Afghanistan ,but you keep on as that is what HE Meant.

Do You,Lakerssportsfan, have inside Knowledge as to what Wagner Meant in his article in Black Belt ?
Did you even read the article in Black Belt ?
Perhaps YOU are Wagner,LOL.
(Fast enough to jump on POWNET for him ??)

What is your background ?
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whitewolf

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Re: More on the AK-47...
« Reply #26 on: September 20, 2008, 05:06:18 AM »

Muy interestante-muy muy-ak47,s-what it boils down to is that the god dam wpn works-
brings back memories of when i was in nam and the m-16 first came out-i decided to carry my m-14 with selector switch-i knew that would work-

The bigger problem also is the $$ gets in the way with the american wpn system that is purchased by our military

I vote that the sling shot is put back in use--------whitewolf  (el  lobo blanco)
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JimH

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Re: More on the AK-47...
« Reply #27 on: September 20, 2008, 06:35:36 AM »

The M14:
What a Great weapon.
Bigger,heavier but alot more power than the M 16.

Not only does Money get in the way of our weapons  and weapons systems but so do the law Makers and the Military Jag Offs (officers)

The sling shot:
Another nice weapon
One that thanks to Americans not wanting their kids to play with Violent things or things that could possibly cause injury ,has been forgotten about by most kids and young adults in North America.
So with the sling shot the  potential enemy in many third world countries would still have an advantage.

The Good ole days of cops and robbers,Cowboy and Indians,sling shots,BB Guns,pocket knives and kids being physical and playing outside.
What road are we heading down.

Whitewolf did you see the Marines are getting rid of the SAW and the Army may follow.
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whitewolf

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Re: More on the AK-47...
« Reply #28 on: September 20, 2008, 07:19:43 PM »

JimH-no i  did not see anything about the SAW but Ill go on the internet and look
As far as the good old days they are gone for ever-
whitewolf (el lobo blanco)
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arnold

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Re: More on the AK-47...
« Reply #29 on: September 21, 2008, 05:37:34 AM »

Let's see...
AK47 yep got one, M16, yep, K98 Mauser, yep, BAR, yep, Thompson, Yep, M14, ah huh, M1 Garand, yep. Plus enough other assorted crap and ammo to start my own little version of downtown Beirut, right here in North Texas.
Full auto stuff is on my permit in NY and locked away for those "special" occasions.
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I leave you idiots alone for 5 minutes and I come back and you're all dancing around like a bunch of Kansas City faggots
you're all a bunch of slack jawed faggots around here, this stuff will make you a sexual tyrannosaurus, just like me!
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