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[Bryan Lee]

  Sun Helmet, If you guys stuck to solid knife work instruction I doubt if anyone would have any comments about Sayoc. Some people have gone off saying Tuhon has no level of fitness but this would not effect instruction or make the knifework invalid.

  I have had problems with much of the FMA stuff as its presented over the years. Does hyping up and flat out lieing about martial arts make it invalid, no it does not. What it does is cause a loss of respect. Does Sayoc represent all FMA? No. It represents itself so what one group hypes cannot be attributed to Sayoc alone but you guys have profited off hype all the same. I can clearly remember  Tommy Lee Jones in the DVD Bonus talking about Sayoc Kali like it was some kind of big secret in such a way he was either just acting or he actually believed the mess that had been whispered in his ear about Kali. What he was not told was any of the history of who was actually resisting Spanish occupation with bladed weapons nor how the actual locals "Indigenous" are dark skinned curly haired Negritos and outside of them there are two kinds of folks. Those with Spanish names and those with Muslim names. Yes I have actually been in the jungle in the P.I. and have personal experience with the subject matter.

  As far as everyone playing it cool with each other that's just another way to keep the general public misinformed. When you hear some bullshit story being told you don't say anything and give a nod and wink and on the next page you tell some bullshit story and in turn nobody calls you on it. That is unless jealousy rears its head then it turns into a complete feeding frenzy. An interesting case in point is that of Leo Gaje, granted he is a pain in the ass at times but out of everyone in FMA who is currently alive he has been the most honest about the true history of FMA. He is not the only one here that believes in magic and other animist beliefs so I don't find any fault with that. So you guys fail to take care of Gaje, he tells a few stories and you guys start in on him, fairly polite disagreement in public but what are you guys saying behind closed doors about the man?

http://sayoc.com/forums/index.php?topic=1259.0


Should I bother to mention the Pipe Hitters Union? Anyone in the know already knew the reference "Pipe Hitter" referred to crackheads who suck the glass dick 24/7 "straight Pyrex tube, often a broken test tube stuffed with Chore Boy" and the whole premise of a bunch of real operators referring to themselves as pipe hitters is just silly. Crackheads will do anything, I suppose the bigger question is where is Sayoc heading? If its towards more straight forward training, good for you. If its more FMA smoke and Tactical mirrors, good luck with that.

[noload]

I don't know about the rest but the term Pipe-Hitter means badass, tough guy, etc. I can see where it also could have a drug connotation but that's not how I've heard it used in my circles.

[Joe Hubbard]

Sun Helmet, don't go putting words in my mouth Sparky, reread my post, I never referred to the tactical rig as being "silly."  The term "cult" was used in referring to a galzed over wannabe who was hypnotised by Sayoc's mystique.  I saw it and have told it like it was.  I commend you for coming here to defend you master's rep, but really no one cares on this forum.  As far as for the Tom Kier session- and let me just say this: I liked Tom Kier; he was a nice guy and showed some sensible stuff in the semi-private I had with him.  All I was trying to point out is I spent two days of training the most convoluted drills that were complicated to the point of brain meltdown only to be revealed of its application within that last hour.  The weirder thing is just how many people buy in to your BS (or shall I say did buy in to your BS) when it comes to tactical knife fighting.  The truth is that the end result that Sayoc has to offer is no different from anything else.  Most of the people who train with Hock have gone through many systems in search of some truth.  I made up my mind a long time ago that I would rather know how to fight than be a drill master. 

Out

Joe

[Sun_Helmet]

  Sun Helmet, If you guys stuck to solid knife work instruction I doubt if anyone would have any comments about Sayoc.

Bryan, that's interesting because the other critics state that FMA should be covered in all it's complexity and richness of the art. For example, the Sayoc Stick grappling covered a very good area that is often ignored in instructional dvds. I myself teach the tomahawk for military personnel in the Sayoc Tactical. Tuhon Felix Cortes who Manong Dan Inosanto has publicly stated as one of the best stick guys he's ever met has shared his knowledge of corto striking and empty hand striking as taught to him by Tuhon Sayoc. We have one side saying Sayoc should teach more of the FMA and then we have another saying we should teach the knife alone.
That only tells us that people want the material and it is in high demand.

 

Does Sayoc represent all FMA? No. It represents itself so what one group hypes cannot be attributed to Sayoc alone but you guys have profited off hype all the same. I can clearly remember  Tommy Lee Jones in the DVD Bonus talking about Sayoc Kali like it was some kind of big secret in such a way he was either just acting or he actually believed the mess that had been whispered in his ear about Kali.

Bryan, it is going to be pretty easy to explain this. In the DVD, Tommy Lee Jones explains "Kali" as an art from MALAYSIA... now you tell me. If Sayoc was all about hype and self-promotion... why on earth would we attribute the art to MALAYSIA? How does that in any way benefit us, the FILIPINO Martial Arts or myself who has extensively written and discussed the history of the Filipinos in various forums?

 

What he was not told was any of the history of who was actually resisting Spanish occupation with bladed weapons nor how the actual locals "Indigenous" are dark skinned curly haired Negritos and outside of them there are two kinds of folks. Those with Spanish names and those with Muslim names. Yes I have actually been in the jungle in the P.I. and have personal experience with the subject matter.

I was there during all the rehearsals and on the set, so I know what he was told.

That's wonderful that you have actually visited the islands. If you ever read my essays and articles about Filipino history, you would never have brought this up. Inside the sayoc forum, I have an archive of rare photos and articles concerning the history of the Filipinos from the Aetas /Negritos to the present. Speaking of the jungles, my family was personally involved in the guerilla movement during WW2, so much so that my uncle, a Filipino by birth was buried with honors at Arlington National cemetery because of the recommendation he received for his recon work by General MacArthur. I was born in the islands and my father just moved back to the states a couple of years ago... so it would make things easier to actually research some things before throwing stuff up on the internet.

In fact if you research my last name, Kayanan... it is rooted to the Kayan region in the highlands of the Philippines. Much of the non Spanish/non Muslims live there.

It is probably amusing to many who have read the thousands of words I have put online on the Dog Brothers Forum and on FMA sites concerning the history of the islands to hear someone accuse me of neglecting the history of the Filipinos.

You have to realize that when people work on films, you do not get to go to the press junkets that the actors do. That's done many months after the filming is over and not even in the same locations. By that time Tommy Lee Jones was filming his second film AFTER wrapping the HUNTED. He's already moved on to another character(s).

Also, you have to also realize that Sayoc EARNED their way to the film set by actually proving to the film directors and producers the legitimacy of FMA.
Look at films PRIOR to the HUNTED, you hardly saw any big budget FMA on screen. Only in short segments. Did you know that when we came on to the set as "advisors" the fight choreography was being done by the folks from Walker Texas Ranger? That we had to actually SHOW that the FMA had its own flavor and that we were proud to say it came from the Philippines? It was very hard work trying to show that the FMA belonged in Hollywood - if it was easy everyone would have done a knife FMA film on this scale a long time ago. I had to actually create a system of pre-visualization using their film language to explain how the moves could be shot and how the moves could be learned.

When we were on the set, Tuhon Tom and I were actually quite excited that for once we get some FMA on the screen. Not a B movie - this was prior to Jason Bourne. We actually thought the general FMA community would see the HUNTED as a good thing. A springboard to spotlight what everyone else was teaching in the FMAs. Instead, we get posts like yours accusing us of some imaginary underhanded move that doesn't even make sense if you think it through.

But that's cool - it was a matter of you being misinformed. I hope this clears it up.

An interesting case in point is that of Leo Gaje, granted he is a pain in the ass at times but out of everyone in FMA who is currently alive he has been the most honest about the true history of FMA. He is not the only one here that believes in magic and other animist beliefs so I don't find any fault with that. So you guys fail to take care of Gaje, he tells a few stories and you guys start in on him, fairly polite disagreement in public but what are you guys saying behind closed doors about the man?

http://sayoc.com/forums/index.php?topic=1259.0

Hock has mentioned more than once how he respected the father of the Sayocs in this forum and elsewhere. Tatang Bo Sayoc retired as a corrections officer in Florida, in the 70's his modest home was open to all the FMA masters who were coming to the states. Professor Remy Presas was one of his guests and old friends. If you look back through the years prior to his death no one ever said a bad thing about Tatang Bo. he was always trying to get other fMA instructors the limelight. You can ask anyone who was there. Even the younger guys like Guro Baet and Guro Raffy Pambuan in Florida attributes Tatang Bo's generosity and hospitality when they first came to the states. It is a legacy that the Sayocs have upheld. In our Samas Samas, we've had various masters from OUTSIDE Sayoc to come and teach. To provide them with a venue and to spotlight their efforts. This past summer we flew in Grand Master Tortal, and we had a silat instructor from Hawaii and two afore-mentioned FMA luminaries. We had Ray Floro a few years prior to that, you get the picture.

Now take all that in context and you have GM Gaje trashing Tatang Bo and his family AFTER his death a mere one year later on some FMA forum. You call that a small thing but imagine if that happened to your father or your mentor? I wish you do go and read that link again, because as you can see other FMA instructors sided with Tuhon Sayocs POV.

Should I bother to mention the Pipe Hitters Union? Anyone in the know already knew the reference "Pipe Hitter" referred to crackheads who suck the glass dick 24/7 "straight Pyrex tube, often a broken test tube stuffed with Chore Boy" and the whole premise of a bunch of real operators referring to themselves as pipe hitters is just silly. Crackheads will do anything, I suppose the bigger question is where is Sayoc heading? If its towards more straight forward training, good for you. If its more FMA smoke and Tactical mirrors, good luck with that.

wow... talk about misinformation.

Look up the Pipe Hitters Union online, educate yourself. It was started by former DELTA and Naval Special Warfare military personnel who are just trying to make a decent living selling shirts to the troops and public. They have paid their dues and done the job that most of society should thank them for. Least thing they need to hear is an association with some drug slang. And as someone else pointed out, in my world... the pipe hitters are the guys you want next to you in the heat of battle.

Hope that clears up some misinformation.

[Sun_Helmet]

Sun Helmet, don't go putting words in my mouth Sparky, reread my post, I never referred to the tactical rig as being "silly."

'Grand Poobah" came out of your mouth and some embarassingly disputed attributions about Tuhon Ray Dionaldo as well. If your last hurrah is to coyly state that the implied usage of the tactical "HARNESS" isn't to say it is silly then perhaps I can see why you have to resort to the name-calling. When you call someone "Sparky" is that suppose to be a sign of superior one up-manship on your part? How's that working for you?

Does "Sparky" really need  to explain to everyone here why your choice of the word "harness"  was supposed to make the rig appear silly?

The term "cult" was used in referring to a galzed over wannabe who was hypnotised by Sayoc's mystique.  I saw it and have told it like it was.

Well, I have looked over your descriptions of events and I find that you do not call them as you see them. You call them as you want to see them. Did the guy in fact REALLY grimace? So now the other guy is a "wannabe", why not just an eager new student?
Why are you projecting all these negative implications to something that isn't real? if the "Italian" fellow was such a cult member, then why haven't we heard of this Italian Sayoc cult? you'd think we'd have a bunch of groups there. Or is this mere BS?

You've been around the block, eager new students get a pass. In fact, sooner or later you have to tell them to actually touch the skin with the trainer when they train, you have to find the right opportunity to point out not to tuck that trainer in their belt, because that's like training to tuck a gun in your belt (without a holster).. I'm talking not in your pants but in your belt. You make them progress until they can soak all the info in. Some like yourself, will pick on them and point out the drills whose principles you're not quite getting.

However, sooner or later, you find out that if you can train it so that the finger can drive the flat of the blade at the hilt towards the thigh, you will learn that it becomes even easier when you add a weapon to your hand. It's actually the next drill in a longer class session.

You can then teach them that this line of motion of the knife is actually a tip down movement that moves in the path which is identical to deploying a blade from a sheath. So that later on, you might only get that small space to actually draw your knife. Therefore learning that finger flick thing makes perfect sense when you add the knife, the sheath, the quick deployment when someone is rushing towards you. You can even use the other hand to tap/strike/grab as you do it.

Sure, you saw what you saw... but that does not mean it can't be called into question? That's what you're doing with Sayoc correct? Fair enough?


 

I commend you for coming here to defend you master's rep, but really no one cares on this forum.

Joe, are you also calling this as you see it?

Everyone here can see the SAYOC thread is started by Hock.

He had some legitimate concerns and questions.
Since I am a Sayoc rep - it seems perfectly logical to clear up some misinformation.
Bryan above just mentioned the need to clarify certain things.

So it seems others do care. They see it differently than you.

However, we can close the curtains and allow everyone to just keep piling on with the unquestioned rumors, and unchallenged observations, but i doubt that was the intent.

On thread drift, wasn't it you who chimed in with the seminar story? Btw, I'm waiting on the video footage of that seminar to see the  grimace, the body shove and the trainer brandishing. maybe I will see what you saw, but so far I've asked around to guys who were there and they don't recall it.

All I was trying to point out is I spent two days of training the most convoluted drills that were complicated to the point of brain meltdown only to be revealed of its application within that last hour.  The weirder thing is just how many people buy in to your BS (or shall I say did buy in to your BS) when it comes to tactical knife fighting.

Wait, so the finger flick was too simple that you goofed on it and the other drills were so complicated that you got a brain meltdown.


At least I know better what is bothering you. You are not seeing what the high end Tactical clients we teach see. That's not BS, that's you seeing what you want to see.
Let me explain.

So far the only info here is that you can't figure out the other drills were concerning the tapping range, which were entirely different than the range Tuhon Tom Kier was teaching. He was teaching you the grappling/closing range. The tapping range is where you have to get by before you can make that range. The drills show the KNIFE guy winning over anyone who tries to use FMA tapping or other empty hand defenses. It is a range that not many FMA seminars cover.

 

The truth is that the end result that Sayoc has to offer is no different from anything else.  Most of the people who train with Hock have gone through many systems in search of some truth.  I made up my mind a long time ago that I would rather know how to fight than be a drill master. 

Out
Joe

So are you, Joe Hubbard saying none of the Sayoc guys who were teaching at the seminar, the SAYOC reps from the US know how to fight? Ray Dionaldo, Felix Cortes, the Sayoc sons, Tom Kier, Tuhon Sayoc- are you Joe Hubbard - saying publicly that the Sayocs are mere drill masters? Because that's what one of the most important tools they learned to make them better fighters.... drills.

Is this the truth or how you see it?

Be careful now, because your last comment sound a bit "cultish" if some one else had said that about Sayoc... GALZED eyes or not....

Btw, check out the link Hock posted in the beginning of this thread. It seems to be following the same pattern he's had problems with concerning critics of his own teaching methodology.

I think he just wanted to know what Sayoc was up to, and you introduced a thread rift that doesn't even go with the positive spirit of this forum.

Sayoc's doing VERY well, so much so that we're about to introduce some exciting stuff in the future. I won't go into it here but we'll make some announcements in the next few months on sayoc.com. We've been VERY busy!!!

[Joe Hubbard]

Sun Helmet

Your obsequious rhetoric about Sayoc Kali proceeds you and as I said before, I don't really care.  You continue to put words in my mouth and to be honest your posts are like the Sayoc DVD I was duped into buying, too long, meaningless, but does have a purpose if one if suffering from insomnia. 

Why don't you try and contribute something to this forum of worth mate, rather than always adopting a defensive posture?  Every single post I have seen that you have written follows the same pattern.  Everything can be criticised mate.  Nothing is perfect.  I also have the right not to like something.  Sayoc, to me, is an over hyped, over complicated system that I won't endorse period.  Go try and convince someone else.

Out

Joe 

[Bryan Lee]

  Sun Helmet, If you guys stuck to solid knife work instruction I doubt if anyone would have any comments about Sayoc.

Bryan, that's interesting because the other critics state that FMA should be covered in all it's complexity and richness of the art. For example, the Sayoc Stick grappling covered a very good area that is often ignored in instructional dvds. I myself teach the tomahawk for military personnel in the Sayoc Tactical. Tuhon Felix Cortes who Manong Dan Inosanto has publicly stated as one of the best stick guys he's ever met has shared his knowledge of corto striking and empty hand striking as taught to him by Tuhon Sayoc. We have one side saying Sayoc should teach more of the FMA and then we have another saying we should teach the knife alone.
That only tells us that people want the material and it is in high demand.

 

Does Sayoc represent all FMA? No. It represents itself so what one group hypes cannot be attributed to Sayoc alone but you guys have profited off hype all the same. I can clearly remember  Tommy Lee Jones in the DVD Bonus talking about Sayoc Kali like it was some kind of big secret in such a way he was either just acting or he actually believed the mess that had been whispered in his ear about Kali.

Bryan, it is going to be pretty easy to explain this. In the DVD, Tommy Lee Jones explains "Kali" as an art from MALAYSIA... now you tell me. If Sayoc was all about hype and self-promotion... why on earth would we attribute the art to MALAYSIA? How does that in any way benefit us, the FILIPINO Martial Arts or myself who has extensively written and discussed the history of the Filipinos in various forums?

 

What he was not told was any of the history of who was actually resisting Spanish occupation with bladed weapons nor how the actual locals "Indigenous" are dark skinned curly haired Negritos and outside of them there are two kinds of folks. Those with Spanish names and those with Muslim names. Yes I have actually been in the jungle in the P.I. and have personal experience with the subject matter.

I was there during all the rehearsals and on the set, so I know what he was told.

That's wonderful that you have actually visited the islands. If you ever read my essays and articles about Filipino history, you would never have brought this up. Inside the sayoc forum, I have an archive of rare photos and articles concerning the history of the Filipinos from the Aetas /Negritos to the present. Speaking of the jungles, my family was personally involved in the guerilla movement during WW2, so much so that my uncle, a Filipino by birth was buried with honors at Arlington National cemetery because of the recommendation he received for his recon work by General MacArthur. I was born in the islands and my father just moved back to the states a couple of years ago... so it would make things easier to actually research some things before throwing stuff up on the internet.

In fact if you research my last name, Kayanan... it is rooted to the Kayan region in the highlands of the Philippines. Much of the non Spanish/non Muslims live there.

It is probably amusing to many who have read the thousands of words I have put online on the Dog Brothers Forum and on FMA sites concerning the history of the islands to hear someone accuse me of neglecting the history of the Filipinos.

You have to realize that when people work on films, you do not get to go to the press junkets that the actors do. That's done many months after the filming is over and not even in the same locations. By that time Tommy Lee Jones was filming his second film AFTER wrapping the HUNTED. He's already moved on to another character(s).

Also, you have to also realize that Sayoc EARNED their way to the film set by actually proving to the film directors and producers the legitimacy of FMA.
Look at films PRIOR to the HUNTED, you hardly saw any big budget FMA on screen. Only in short segments. Did you know that when we came on to the set as "advisors" the fight choreography was being done by the folks from Walker Texas Ranger? That we had to actually SHOW that the FMA had its own flavor and that we were proud to say it came from the Philippines? It was very hard work trying to show that the FMA belonged in Hollywood - if it was easy everyone would have done a knife FMA film on this scale a long time ago. I had to actually create a system of pre-visualization using their film language to explain how the moves could be shot and how the moves could be learned.

When we were on the set, Tuhon Tom and I were actually quite excited that for once we get some FMA on the screen. Not a B movie - this was prior to Jason Bourne. We actually thought the general FMA community would see the HUNTED as a good thing. A springboard to spotlight what everyone else was teaching in the FMAs. Instead, we get posts like yours accusing us of some imaginary underhanded move that doesn't even make sense if you think it through.

But that's cool - it was a matter of you being misinformed. I hope this clears it up.

An interesting case in point is that of Leo Gaje, granted he is a pain in the ass at times but out of everyone in FMA who is currently alive he has been the most honest about the true history of FMA. He is not the only one here that believes in magic and other animist beliefs so I don't find any fault with that. So you guys fail to take care of Gaje, he tells a few stories and you guys start in on him, fairly polite disagreement in public but what are you guys saying behind closed doors about the man?

http://sayoc.com/forums/index.php?topic=1259.0

Hock has mentioned more than once how he respected the father of the Sayocs in this forum and elsewhere. Tatang Bo Sayoc retired as a corrections officer in Florida, in the 70's his modest home was open to all the FMA masters who were coming to the states. Professor Remy Presas was one of his guests and old friends. If you look back through the years prior to his death no one ever said a bad thing about Tatang Bo. he was always trying to get other fMA instructors the limelight. You can ask anyone who was there. Even the younger guys like Guro Baet and Guro Raffy Pambuan in Florida attributes Tatang Bo's generosity and hospitality when they first came to the states. It is a legacy that the Sayocs have upheld. In our Samas Samas, we've had various masters from OUTSIDE Sayoc to come and teach. To provide them with a venue and to spotlight their efforts. This past summer we flew in Grand Master Tortal, and we had a silat instructor from Hawaii and two afore-mentioned FMA luminaries. We had Ray Floro a few years prior to that, you get the picture.

Now take all that in context and you have GM Gaje trashing Tatang Bo and his family AFTER his death a mere one year later on some FMA forum. You call that a small thing but imagine if that happened to your father or your mentor? I wish you do go and read that link again, because as you can see other FMA instructors sided with Tuhon Sayocs POV.

Should I bother to mention the Pipe Hitters Union? Anyone in the know already knew the reference "Pipe Hitter" referred to crackheads who suck the glass dick 24/7 "straight Pyrex tube, often a broken test tube stuffed with Chore Boy" and the whole premise of a bunch of real operators referring to themselves as pipe hitters is just silly. Crackheads will do anything, I suppose the bigger question is where is Sayoc heading? If its towards more straight forward training, good for you. If its more FMA smoke and Tactical mirrors, good luck with that.

wow... talk about misinformation.

Look up the Pipe Hitters Union online, educate yourself. It was started by former DELTA and Naval Special Warfare military personnel who are just trying to make a decent living selling shirts to the troops and public. They have paid their dues and done the job that most of society should thank them for. Least thing they need to hear is an association with some drug slang. And as someone else pointed out, in my world... the pipe hitters are the guys you want next to you in the heat of battle.

Hope that clears up some misinformation.

  Sun Helmet, thanks for being diplomatic, my post should have read "stick to solid training" not just knife. You mention the Tomahawk, how is the Tomahawk FMA? I do not wish to limit you or your guys in any way but it seems everytime anything knife comes up everyone always claims it came from FMA like the knife was invented in the P.I. or like Negritos figured out how to smelt iron into steel after they got there by walking over the land bridge.

  It is a well known fact that Lapu Lapu was a Muslim Chief "Moro"who defended the Philippines against Spanish Christians but the majority of practicing FMA people are all Spanish and Christian and to this very day war rages in the southern islands of Mindanao and Jolo where local Muslims are still trying to retain their land and heritage. I suppose the argument could be made that the Philippines named after King Phillip did not exist prior to the sixteenth century but even this kind of argument leaves more questions than answers.

  Im out of time for now but if your interested in history and want to go over a few things Im game. Maybe you could repost or link to some of your writing on FMA history?



  The Pipe Hitter thing is 100% correct. It does not matter what the people involved have done or not done.

[Hock]

Guys, we just got a teamed-up barrage of ousider hate mail on this subject and I figured I would delete it all and shut it down (lock it)...in case more comes in I don't catch. If you have such problems with Sayoc, go to their page and explain it to them.

Hock