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Author Topic: JKD?.... Discuss  (Read 27484 times)

Wardog

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JKD?.... Discuss
« on: October 07, 2008, 03:29:29 PM »

 I use the concept of JKD... a number of styles and use what works best for me. I have never trained in a style called JKD because it doesn't exist.
« Last Edit: October 07, 2008, 05:44:26 PM by Hock »
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Milldog1776

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Re: Discuss
« Reply #1 on: October 07, 2008, 04:42:35 PM »

I use the concept of JKD... a number of styles and use what works best for me. I have never trained in a style called JKD because it doesn't exist.

Why would you say that JKD does not exist?
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Wardog

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Re: Discuss
« Reply #2 on: October 07, 2008, 05:12:35 PM »

 Ok, JKD as Lee conceived it doesn't exist. JKD as the cash cow( is or was thought to be) people involved with Lee turned it in to exists.  Even Inosanto only billed it as JKD concepts, I believe. Not as a style. He does claim Jun Fan Gung Fu. Since it was never really a set of techniques to its' creator, it can't really be a set of techniques now.

 
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Milldog1776

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Re: Discuss
« Reply #3 on: October 07, 2008, 05:18:37 PM »

Interesting.

I wonder, would you kindly cite where your authority to make such statements derives from? If you have never trained JKD, and are not affiliated in any way with any JKD associations...where does your information on this topic come from?

Are you citing magazines, other instructors, websites, etc.?
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Wardog

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Re: Discuss
« Reply #4 on: October 07, 2008, 05:25:48 PM »

 Simple question:  Did Bruce Lee create JKD as a fighting style with set techniques or as a concept of studying everything and taking what works for you?  Answer: Concept.  Thought that was common knowledge.

 
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Milldog1776

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Re: Discuss
« Reply #5 on: October 07, 2008, 05:27:23 PM »

That didn't answer my prior set of questions, Wardog.
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Wardog

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Re: Discuss
« Reply #6 on: October 07, 2008, 05:39:26 PM »

I have not invented a "new style," composite, modified or otherwise that is set within distinct form as apart from "this" method or "that" method. On the contrary, I hope to free my followers from clinging to styles, patterns, or molds. Remember that Jeet Kune Do is merely a name used, a mirror in which to see "ourselves". . . Jeet Kune Do is not an organized institution that one can be a member of. Either you understand or you don't, and that is that. There is no mystery about my style. My movements are simple, direct and non-classical. The extraordinary part of it lies in its simplicity. Every movement in Jeet Kune-Do is being so of itself. There is nothing artificial about it. I always believe that the easy way is the right way. Jeet Kune-Do is simply the direct expression of one's feelings with the minimum of movements and energy. The closer to the true way of Kung Fu, the less wastage of expression there is. Finally, a Jeet Kune Do man who says Jeet Kune Do is exclusively Jeet Kune Do is simply not with it. He is still hung up on his self-closing resistance, in this case anchored down to reactionary pattern, and naturally is still bound by another modified pattern and can move within its limits. He has not digested the simple fact that truth exists outside all molds; pattern and awareness is never exclusive. Again let me remind you Jeet Kune Do is just a name used, a boat to get one across, and once across it is to be discarded and not to be carried on one's back.

Bruce Lee


   That is a Lee quote. He does, unfortunately, use the word style but he clearly does not mean it is a system, organized institution, or set of techniques. That is one quote. But it pretty much says it all.

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Wardog

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Re: Discuss
« Reply #7 on: October 07, 2008, 05:40:38 PM »

 Oh, and to answer your question, my authority is derived from the authority.
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Milldog1776

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Re: JKD?.... Discuss
« Reply #8 on: October 07, 2008, 05:47:35 PM »

Then do you believe that there is a difference between doing JKD and say........doing karate, Filipino MA, and Thai boxing?

In other words....are there core techniques and strategies that Bruce Lee focused on or can you just do whatever you want and still call it JKD?
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Wardog

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Re: JKD?.... Discuss
« Reply #9 on: October 07, 2008, 06:00:56 PM »

 He trained what he had found to be best at the time. But, in my opinion, you can do anything that WORKS for you and call it JKD. In the sense that you prescribe to the philosophy and/or concept of JKD. To say your style is JKD would be incorrect. Lee had core techniques he used and strategies he focused on but they only subscribe to the JKD concept because they worked for him best at the time. He would have shed any and all if he stumbled across anything more effective for him. So, there are no set techniques or strategies just the best ones for the person.

  In a sense Hock is a major JKD proponent. He shows you techniques he has found to be best. He would never suggest you not use a technique that works for you, if it wasn't of his teaching. Now in his system you would have to rank using his techniques but his philosophy is pure "use whatever you can kick ass with consistently".
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Milldog1776

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Re: JKD?.... Discuss
« Reply #10 on: October 07, 2008, 07:32:57 PM »

Inspired by Hock, I no longer teach JKD. Like he says, I teach "Generic" self-defense applications, running folks through the bare necessities of surviving conflict.

However, I do disagree with Wardog. There are key components to JKD that many people simply do not understand if they have not trained it. Wardog, I do agree that for the most part JKD is conceptual...however without these key components there is no such thing as JKD.

Intercepting Broken Rhythm, The Hammer Principle and maintaining the Fighting Measure in the sense that Lee trained his instructors are key elements. Without understanding them and utilizing them...you are just doing what works best for you, as Wardog states. 
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Wardog

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Re: JKD?.... Discuss
« Reply #11 on: October 07, 2008, 07:59:39 PM »

Intercepting Broken Rhythm, The Hammer Principle and maintaining the Fighting Measure in the sense that Lee trained his instructors are key elements.

without these key components there is no such thing as JKD.-KM



 There is no such thing as JKD as a style so these things are irrelevant. If a technique works better for someone than any of those then it would be substituted.  I understand that you trained in JKD and that for the style(which never should have existed and really does not as tied to Lee) they are essential. I will not argue that. My argument is that as a system with the name JKD, heavily tied to Lee, it is fraudulent. He never intended it as a style. If you call it My Kwan Do and make those specific techniques the base, fine, but it never should have been called JKD because it isn't.

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Milldog1776

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Re: JKD?.... Discuss
« Reply #12 on: October 07, 2008, 08:04:01 PM »

You and I will have to politely disagree. It must be called something.
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Wardog

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Re: JKD?.... Discuss
« Reply #13 on: October 07, 2008, 08:22:16 PM »

 Mr. Miller  -we agree to disagree.  Have a nice evening.
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whitewolf

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Re: JKD?.... Discuss
« Reply #14 on: October 07, 2008, 10:39:35 PM »

Wardog-you quoted Bruce saying "use the boat to get accross but then dont put it on your  back" or words to that effect
My question what happens if you leave the god dam boat and come to another river??
Swim?
How about drag the boat with you or improvise and dont get caught without a paddle-
In other words  sir-use what ever is available to come home a winner in H2H combat

whitewolf (el  lobo blanco) ;D ;D


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Hock

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Re: JKD?.... Discuss
« Reply #15 on: October 08, 2008, 08:36:31 AM »

I think that people like to work on that collection of Bruce lee tactics and drills that Lee seemed to show almost everyone as a foundation for improving his and everyone's skills.
This collection has become what folks now call Jeet Kune Do. People like to do these. And they do help almost everyone at least understand what and what does not help. lee operated in a certain framework which is a zen riddle. A framework that is not a framework - so everyone can argue forever.


Its all like a Zen parable really. What is Karate with a small 'k"?

If you see the Bhudda on the side of the road?..... Kill him.

Hock

Milldog1776

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Re: JKD?.... Discuss
« Reply #16 on: October 08, 2008, 11:53:18 AM »

I think also that some people get so obsessed with that structure, that any deviation from it is considered taboo.

One of the other reasons I no longer teach JKD is I just can't handle the "politics" involved with most organizations. The third reason is that most people just can't do JKD, and as an instructor...there's nothing more frustrating.
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Martin25

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Re: JKD?.... Discuss
« Reply #17 on: January 26, 2009, 06:40:10 AM »

Bruce Lee's Jeet Kune Do, interpretations

Hi guys
I posted this on another forum in an attempt to give a very basic outline of the interpretations existing on JKD today. (references and thanks to David Cheng,Tim Tackett,Jason Korol)This is a very basic outline are there things that I should add?



The Seattle Era

I thought it may be useful to outline some of the basic differences in the interpretation of JKD.

The Seattle Era
The first era in Seattle began in 1959 when Bruce Lee taught his Non Classical Gung Fu informally to a small group of people including Jesse Glover his first student and Assistant Instructor. The training consisted mainly of Wing Chun based techniques and included other techniques forms and elements from a few Chinese martial arts.
This group incuded,Skip Ellsworth, Joseph Cowles, James DeMille, and Ed Hart  to name a few as noted students.

The Jun Fan Gung Fu Institute Seattle was the place where the formal foundation of Bruce Lee's martial art was established in the early 1960s.
Students are taught basic kicking,punching, footwork, trapping,chi sao and energy sensitivity,wooden dummy set,Si Lim Tao. There is a lot of emphasis on physical fitness training with equipment and sparring. Theories such as simplicity ,directness and economy of motion are taught. Bruce Lee's philosophy is taught.
Bruce Lee formally made Taky Kimura his Assistant Instructor, who taught the classes under his supervision after Bruce moved away.

Jun Fan Gung Fu Institute, Oakland Era (1964) This is the place where Bruce Lee changed his original Wing Chun based methods and added ,western boxing, fencing ideas, kickboxing and sparring. This is the time that he first called his art "Jeet Kune Do".
Bruce was greatly influenced by James Yimm Lee's emphasis on weight training. He made James his Assistant Instructor at that kwoon. Bruce also began emphasizing more conditioning and made changes in his own training after his famous fight with Wok Jak Man.

Jun Fan Gung Fu Institute, Chinatown Era (1967)
This is the place where Bruce Lee integrated his martial art and developed his "way of no way". However he still taught the best way he knew how to to punch, kick, intercept, stop hit, 5 ways of attack. He introduced full contact sparring with protective equipment to his students at this time. He investigated grappling and ground fighting and trained with noted wrestlers, judoka and jiujitsu practitioners.
Bruce also taught privately and trained famous World Champion tournament fighters such as Joe Lewis,Chuck Norris and Mike Stone.
Ted Wong was a private student. This training method was regarded as "Original JKD" and is now called "Jun Fan Jeet Kune Do" by the Bruce Lee Foundation.
Also, Bruce made Dan Inosanto his Assistant Instructor at the Chinatown school.

Jeet Kune Do Concepts
When Bruce Lee passed away in 1973, JKD concepts was born, it did not exist during his lifetime. Many JKD Concepts Instructors appear to view JKD not as a training and fighting method but as a philosophy to help students to maximise their potiential. Many different martial arts such as Kali, Silat, BJJ, Savate, Thai Boxing,Bando,Shoot Wrestling are taught to students to help them to develop their own "personal JKD".

The term "Jeet Kune Do Concepts" arose when Dan Inosanto, who promised Bruce he would not teach JKD commercially, decided to teach some of the principles and concepts of JKD using the art of kali at public seminars. Promoters started advertising that Dan would be teaching Jeet Kune Do "Concepts." Eventually, this became an umbrella term that encompassed the numerous arts.Dan continues to teach JKD to a select group at his school.

Functional Jeet Kune Do
Some have brought yet a different interpretation to JKD by dropping all or most of what they call Bruce Lee's "outdated dead pattern " training method in favour of what they name "aliveness" . "Aliveness" dictates that every thing is practiced against a "fully resisting"partner/opponent. This incorporates; BJJ,Thai Boxing, Greco Roman Wrestling,Sub wrestling,catch as catch can and other arts. This method appears to have much in common with traditional submission wrestling and MMA. Functional JKD does not appear to teach any "Original" JKD techniques at all.

There is a view that the Functional JKD people regard Bruce's art itself as having "outdated dead patterns". They criticize modern JKD teachers for the way they use "dead patterns" in their training as opposed to "alive" training.

Proponents of all the above methods are sincere in their belief that they are seeking "the truth" and are trying to improve themselves physically and mentally.
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Martin

juszczec

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Re: JKD?.... Discuss
« Reply #18 on: January 26, 2009, 08:44:34 AM »

Hi folks

FWIW - I don't care what its called.  The concept of putting together your arsenal based on YOUR INDIVIDUAL CHARACTERISTICS is valuable.

I don't call what I do JKD because I'm cheap and I don't want to send anyone my money  ;D

Mark

Martin25

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Re: JKD?.... Discuss
« Reply #19 on: January 29, 2009, 02:39:14 AM »

Hey Mark
I'm cheap too as I don't charge for lessons.
all the best
Martin
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Martin

shastana

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Re: JKD?.... Discuss
« Reply #20 on: February 04, 2009, 11:22:44 AM »

And if you zoom back to 1964, fight between Jack Man Wong and Bruce Lee, you can see what Lee was trying to correct.  JMW at that time was a Northern Shaolin expert from China, he has interesting thoughts on Lee's training and abilities (look him up).

Lee challenged anyone to fight him, and JMW stood up to challenge him, but not because Lee was teaching non-chinese, JMW stated this very clearly.  JMW was just "off the boat" and was taking up a challenge from what he saw as a "cocky Wing Chun guy".  At that time, Lee had no Jun Fan, no JKD, only Wing Chun.   

Basically "the fight took too long" was Lees excuse for why he couldn't beat JMW's Northern Shaolin with Wing Chun.  The eyewitnesses say the fight stalemated after 25 minutes, both were exhausted.  And...according to Lee, part of the reason he stopped training in Wing Chun partly because "shortly after the fight began, my fists were swollen from hitting my opponent". 

So, he was trying to develop fighting methods to defeat other CMA stylists, expose their weaknesses, and promote himself.  But, he started trying to improve his skills by finding JMW's teacher, who also came to US at that time!  He got turned down and started the task of research, And the rest is history....

What he used was something like the JKD training program that evolved as we know it today.  That training program still exists, but as instructed by Lee, it evolved.  Whatever you call it, Jun Fan, JKD, BLee method, way of no way, it is NOT Thai boxing, judo, karate, kung fu, etc.  It has its own training methods, its own applications, and thus by definition is something in and of itself.
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Professor

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Re: JKD?.... Discuss
« Reply #21 on: February 05, 2009, 06:57:25 AM »



I can't believe that this particular thread continues to breath.   It's sort of like the Three stooges movie that being talked about. 

It was.  Let it be.   

It's a good basic theoretical system.    Some of it applies to the modern world of defense.

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Kaliman33

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Re: JKD?.... Discuss
« Reply #22 on: February 05, 2009, 08:39:16 AM »

Jun Fan as we teach it is Bruces methods basiclly from 64-72, we do all the bridging, trapping, chi sao etc. But he would not have stopped thier, it is already known he was experimenting with thai, silat, kali. Inosanto was teaching him, where do you think the sticks in enter the dragon came from, inosanto was also teaching him nunchucks,

JKD Concepts as guro inosanto coined is the progression, we still do all the original stuff but move on and progress, as bruce said if you see somthing that works use it.

As far as the fight taking 25 min?? that is the first i heard of that, he was a pioneer and at the forefront of the mma movement way back then, he was the first to use protective gear and focus mitts and such.


Just some more thought

Marc
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shastana

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Re: JKD?.... Discuss
« Reply #23 on: February 05, 2009, 08:17:36 PM »

I know this is going on and on, sorry Prof!  But, yeah that is basically the story.  WJM printed his story in the Chinese paper, stated his view and a second public challenge to Lee if Lee didn't agree with his story.  Even Jimmy Lee doesn't give much detail about the fight and he was there, just keeps to a short 3 min fight.  Look of Wong Jack Man on wickipedia for details. 

Anyway, who knows what happened, the fact is that the fight was the beginning of MMA.  Its almost like the most important event in MMA history!  It was cool from my view that it was a northern vs southern shaolin style that started MMA, supposedly shaolin is mother of asian MA and was mother of MMA, very Zen!
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Martin25

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Re: JKD?.... Discuss
« Reply #24 on: February 24, 2009, 04:27:47 AM »

Hi and apologies to Prof.
I don't want to get too far into something that has been argued to death, however;
Jeet Kune Do is really simple and has elements of Wing Chun,boxing and fencing.
Bruce looked into other systems and did a SWOT analysis on them.
He did not incorporate the arts Kali or Silat in JKD ,this was done after his death by a few people.
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Martin

SileyEric

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Re: JKD?.... Discuss
« Reply #25 on: October 07, 2010, 10:03:34 AM »

This whole thing with naming styles or systems, and then saying you teach "no system," but concepts, is a great conversation to have among peers; however, the general public wants some kind of frame of reference for what you are offering.

I know the frame of reference when I call a JKD or Tae Kwon Do school.  There are differences among them, and people inside the organizations will argue over all the small points of what is or isn't included in the term, but people want a frame of reference.

On the TV show "Top Chef Masters" this season, it was a very close competition between 3 chefs who were renowned for French, Italian, and Southwest/Mexican cuisine.  These guys could cook just about anything and make it unbelievable, but they are still identified by what they know best, and both the general public and "foodies" want to have some frame of reference when visiting their restaurants, or even watching the show.  Rick Bayless, the chef doing Mexican, won the competition.  Most people don't know about gourmet Mexican, but watching him, everyone came to understand it was equivalent.

I think this is the hard part of describing what you do without using a term that the general public can identify with.  It takes a significant effort in terms of marketing campaigns or media coverage to change public perceptions.  Bruce Lee did it with his celebrity and sheer ability.  More recently, it's happened with BJJ due to the UFC/MMA and Krav Maga through marketing and growth of interest in reality-based self defense.

The name has to mean something, and it has to stick.  People really aren't interested in a dissertation.  It needs a name, a bunch of people saying "it's good," and a 30 second pitch.
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Kaliman33

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Re: JKD?.... Discuss
« Reply #26 on: October 08, 2010, 07:33:53 AM »

I was just with Guro dan, ironiclly he said his intest in silat came form bruce lee, his interets in thai boxing came from bruce lee, his interest in savate came from bruce lee.
Bruce was doing a lot of things he did'nt show because he was still in the research phase.
This is straight from the source.

Marc
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Tansau

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Re: JKD?.... Discuss
« Reply #27 on: October 08, 2010, 10:26:53 AM »

I was just with Guro dan, ironiclly he said his intest in silat came form bruce lee, his interets in thai boxing came from bruce lee, his interest in savate came from bruce lee.
Bruce was doing a lot of things he did'nt show because he was still in the research phase.
This is straight from the source.

I recently trained at a seminar with Guro Inosanto at Francis Fong's academy in Atlanta where he said this exact thing. Marc, were you there? I also ran into another guy from Tallahassee, FL who had also trained with Hock. Great seminar. Wing Chun + JKD/FMA + BJJ + Muay Thai all in one weekend.

Another take-away is how much Inosanto stressed conditioning. He said that Bruce Lee told him that conditioning is 60% of winning the fight. He went on to say that one of the Muchado brothers upped that to say conditioning was 80%. One of his Filipino masters said 90%. If you're tired or out of breath you can't think, reaction time slows and you lack both speed and power. Whatever number value you assign, the lesson is clear: staying in good physical condition is vital.

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whitewolf

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Re: JKD?.... Discuss
« Reply #28 on: October 08, 2010, 04:19:11 PM »

Tansau-great that you had that fantastic weekend-lucky.......
As for conditioning-i am sort of a "expert in that area as I am probably the oldest guy on the forum. (72)- it amazes me to see the younger gerneration who are taking martial arts  that the instructor does not push the physical (and mental ) training-without both
one is in big trouble-i work out 2 times day-except sundays-sometime not hard but i do work out-sometimes hit bag-sometimes run around the mat-sometimes strech-
 i recently started the stretch exersises shown to me by a yoga instructor-really good
ones-
anyhow stay  safe- WW
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sarguy

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Re: JKD?.... Discuss
« Reply #29 on: July 01, 2011, 02:04:55 AM »

mmm, thread necromancy...

I had an interesting talk today about what Bruce Lee's JKD might resemble today if Bruce was still around. How different would it be? How much Muay Thai or BJJ might have rubbed off? Or vice versa?
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