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Author Topic: The wrist twist throw "aka" kote-gaeshi  (Read 15770 times)

Bryant

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The wrist twist throw "aka" kote-gaeshi
« on: October 21, 2008, 02:31:55 PM »

The outward wrist lock/twist/throw...
has anyone out there used this effectively in a realistic situation?
B.
« Last Edit: November 11, 2010, 06:46:12 PM by Hock »
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Nick Hughes

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Re: kote-gaeshi
« Reply #1 on: October 21, 2008, 02:49:03 PM »

Yep, I've used it...and so has one of my cop students on a mental patient running around nekid.

Nick
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redfive

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Re: kote-gaeshi
« Reply #2 on: October 21, 2008, 03:17:37 PM »

A lock of opportunity. hard to get to and apply in the heat of battle, but when its there ooo boy let it rip. I think most of the UFC guys don't no or practice any of the stand up jujitsu, I no they arnt aloud to do finger locks, not sure about the wrist. The police officers I've talked to say it has worked , but you don't get that grand Akido in the air throw. The wrist breaks and the opponent sort of goes down in that direction. Wally Jay always said to get the reaction you must be supple and apply the pressure in a controlled manner. Works on people not committed to killing you or looking for a full one on one fight.
this lock I think is more a pain compliance. You can add to it to get a good throw, with leg traps or like Hock says " Grap the fucking hand , twist it and run like hell with it." Hock also taught a great version of it called the English Whip. That kicked my ass. And also people on the street dont now how to fall or go with the locks to get away from the pain. All the locks or cranks ( I Think this falls into the crank category) will work, they just don't look as  glamorous as in training and you have to no how to correct and modify them more for street work.  I seem to always end up in a figure four arm lock. seems like from any angle it is always there. Still an out side wrist throw, but you got the elbow and shoulder to work with to.

                                                                     Redfive

ps. Captian Ben Mangels would always crank your wrist inward, making your body lower. Then would kick you in the nuts and do the outward  throw. Sure do miss the good old days of training. NOT
« Last Edit: October 21, 2008, 03:23:00 PM by redfive »
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JimH

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Re: kote-gaeshi
« Reply #3 on: October 21, 2008, 08:30:59 PM »

How about a one handed wrist lock,applied off a grab
stepped in and off line
Simultaneously grabbing the hand
peeled it off turned it out
simultaneously hooked the same side back of the knee with an inward kick and stepped through with a palm to the face.

Was easy to apply off the grab
harder to make off a punch but doable
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whitewolf

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Re: kote-gaeshi
« Reply #4 on: October 21, 2008, 09:57:40 PM »

Yep- while on Camp Doha as a conractor Sgt A LtCol tried to take my head off by swing the 9MM around towards me-I was lucky and got the wrist and applied the wrist lock or as close to it I could and almost broke his wrist-it works -if applied quickly ( which I was fortunate to do)-whitewolf (el  lobo blanco)
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Bryant

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Re: kote-gaeshi
« Reply #5 on: October 22, 2008, 08:59:27 AM »

What I have found is...

1. It's great for making people drop things
2. sometimes does not work on tree trunk wrist
3. sometimes does not work on spaghetti wrist
4. works great if you break balance first
5. works great if you add atemi
6. works great if you lock the elbow as well (e.g. figure 4)

B. 8)
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noload

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Re: kote-gaeshi
« Reply #6 on: October 22, 2008, 07:01:58 PM »

I have yet to initiate one in the classical manner against a dynamic opponent, but I have done it many times when an encounter hits a slow spot or becomes briefly static. They work even better as a wrist break when on the ground.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JYhRRPVDQsY

Page 7 has several versions of what I would call a kote-gaeshi.
http://www.shivworks.com/PSP/Joint%20locking.pdf
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Hock

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Re: kote-gaeshi
« Reply #7 on: October 22, 2008, 08:26:09 PM »

Before we say if something works or does not, we need to define what we are talking about...what is a kotegaeshi? I mean, here is a semantic question.

Does Kote-gaeshi translate directly to ANY wristlock?
     OR
Does it mean what is so commonly practiced and understaood to be the outer wrist lock throw? As seen in countless video clips on uyou tube and in formal Japanese training.
 
The human wrist turns 5 directions

    all the way to the right  (commonly your two hands on his one hand, twisted out)
    all the way to the left
    all the way backward
    all the way inward
    side to side

Each one produces a unique named tactic and its own common Japanese martial arts name. For example, twisting the wrist inward is often called Sankyo. So...well, why should I go on about the differing names...when the the Japanese names are here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wristlock

The shivworks pdf is showing "the gooseneck," or tekubi gatamae, not a formal defined kotegiesh.

And I have never done a outer or inner wristlock throw work against a fully resisting person, just pansy/partial resisters and whiners. Grabbing and controlling a pissed off man at the wrist, really at the hand of a bent wrist and allowing for his convulsive FULL-BODY motions from the elbow up and out of the bad guy are really tricky and dangerous.

I teach these outer and inner wristlocks because I think we should all know them, but on my personal list of favorites they are very, very low as options. It seems to me there is, at any given time, about 15 things smarter things to do than wrangle a live wire into a two-handed outer or even an inner wirst lock thow, though the inner is a bit better than the outer.

Also I must note that ripping someone's wrist, as seen in the common films as we see on the web? often means sudden injury to the receiver's wrist and forearm as real people do not roll and fall as in matted practice. They also squirm, making your kote-gaeshi become some other kind of move to fiish the job.

As defined, as isloated as the outer wrist throw, I have never done it in real life, and I have arrested over 1500 people, and have seen hundreds others arrested and never seen it. And even if someone did it once or twice, I personally would not endorese it as worthy and rather do a dozen or more other, less risky things first.

I think that Wally Jay's Small Circle JJ version has the best chance at working or injury. And as RedFive said, I do show a big hand-clapping, hand clasp of the hand, not this little fine-tuned, thumb positioning in the exact spots on the back of the hand.

So it is low on my personal list. I teach them with these caveats. Other directions of the wrist attacks, certainly side-to-side can be much more successful. Some call these vertical or horizontal center-locks, or "S" locks.

Also a note: A late phase escape to a painful outer wristlock is to roll ahead of the pain and land WHERE YOU want to, get fre of the grip and immediately counter attack

And I ask that early question. Has anyone seen one work in the UFC? I am just curious.

Hock
« Last Edit: October 23, 2008, 09:25:19 AM by Hock »
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arsenalgunna

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Re: kote-gaeshi
« Reply #8 on: October 22, 2008, 09:02:22 PM »

As far as i know, they don't allow it in the UFC.  small joint locks are prohibited.
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Nick Hughes

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Re: kote-gaeshi
« Reply #9 on: October 22, 2008, 10:31:47 PM »

Arsenal is right...they're not allowed in UFC.

Incidentally the cop I taught them too was not too far out of the academy and in my karate class when I taught them.  He came in to the next lesson all excited because he'd pulled it off the same night on a mental patient off his meds.  They got the call and when they were halfway up the path to the house the loony in question, now naked, burst out of the front door runnng and screaming at them with his hands out.

Harlon grabbed it and twisted and the guy went down and into a perfect pop over.

I also have a tactical Aikido mate who's a cop in Kure Beach in NC who uses Aikido all the time when he's making arrests...Sankyo's, Nikkyo's Kote Gaeshis' and Ikkyo's...Richard's pulled them all off and I've had the stories confirmed by his mates on the force.

The element of surprise is a huge factor in any of those moves.  When you try them in training it's easy for someone who knows what you're going for to circumvent the move...on an unsuspecting jackass in the street all sorts of things work.

Nick
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Hock

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Re: kote-gaeshi
« Reply #10 on: October 22, 2008, 11:39:38 PM »

But now....back to the UFC...no small/wrist locks in UFC?

The prior BJJ clip listed here, finished off a failed triangle choke with a bent, wrist lock capture and submission tap-out. Such a bent, wristlock tap out is illegal in the UFC?

So, bent wrist locks are okay, but twisting wrist locks are not okay? 
Seems like jacking with the opponent's wrist has been a staple since the beginning? 

Hock


 

Nick Hughes

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Re: kote-gaeshi
« Reply #11 on: October 23, 2008, 08:05:11 AM »

That clip isn't UFC or MMA...it's a jiu-jutsu class.

Here are the rules from the UFC website regarding fouls/illegal techniques...look at number eight.

Fouls:   [Top]
1.   Butting with the head.
2.   Eye gouging of any kind.
3.   Biting.
4.   Hair pulling.
5.   Fish hooking.
6.   Groin attacks of any kind.
7.   Putting a finger into any orifice or into any cut or laceration on an opponent.
8.   Small joint manipulation.
9.   Striking to the spine or the back of the head.
10. Striking downward using the point of the elbow.
11. Throat strikes of any kind, including, without limitation, grabbing the trachea.
12. Clawing, pinching or twisting the flesh.
13. Grabbing the clavicle.
14. Kicking the head of a grounded opponent.
15. Kneeing the head of a grounded opponent.
16. Stomping a grounded opponent.
17. Kicking to the kidney with the heel.
18. Spiking an opponent to the canvas on his head or neck.
19. Throwing an opponent out of the ring or fenced area.
20. Holding the shorts or gloves of an opponent.
21. Spitting at an opponent.
22. Engaging in an unsportsmanlike conduct that causes an injury to an opponent.
23. Holding the ropes or the fence.
24. Using abusive language in the ring or fenced area.
25. Attacking an opponent on or during the break.
26. Attacking an opponent who is under the care of the referee.
27. Attacking an opponent after the bell has sounded the end of the period of unarmed combat.
28. Flagrantly disregarding the instructions of the referee.
29. Timidity, including, without limitation, avoiding contact with an opponent, intentionally or consistently dropping the mouthpiece or faking an injury.
30. Interference by the corner.
31. Throwing in the towel during competition.


Nick
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Hard pressed on my right. My center is yielding. Impossible to maneuver. Situation excellent. I am attacking.
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usks1

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Re: kote-gaeshi
« Reply #12 on: October 23, 2008, 08:15:14 AM »


But now....back to the UFC...no small/wrist locks in UFC?

The prior BJJ clip listed here, finished off a failed triangle choke with a bent, wrist lock capture and submission tap-out. Such a bent, wristlock tap out is illegal in the UFC?

So, bent wrist locks are okay, but twisting wrist locks are not okay? 
Seems like jacking with the opponent's wrist has been a staple since the beginning? 

Hock


 


Hock,
Here is some good info on the rules in the cage.

http://answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20071217194855AAVWJRC Also see #8.

Finger cranks and heel hooks are the main things you can't use in GI or no GI grappling. At the higher levels they give you back the heel hook, but never the fingers. The wrist is legal, but you don't see many go for it.

I have caught shit about using wrists when grappling with BJJ guys. Had a guy caught in an armbar and he was holding his GI to keep me from getting the arm... So I did a gooseneck, he tapped, then let loose of his GI, and then I got the armbar and he tapped again. I got the win, but was told it was a sloppy way of getting the armbar.. I used a cheap tactic to break the grip... "Whateva"..... But moving right along.

I think one thing to realize is that in the UFC the hands and wrists are wrapped, and the MMA gloves provide quite a bit of wrist support themselves. This combination keeps a pretty stiff wrist and makes it really hard to get a significant bend.

And I gotta agree with Red Five many of the MMA guys I have worked with don't have a strong standup jits game. Standing or clinched it is more of a striking or greco / wrestling type event.

Anyways I have never seen it done by the book anywhere but in the dojo.

But..... I have gotten some action from an inside wrist control.

As a reference think of being in the familiar inside contact grab and strike position used in the TM manuals.

When you clinch up you can often find this wrist control either going for an underhook, breaking the body lock, or just controlling the wrist so they can't strike with that hand.

Once you have wrist control and have nailed them you can drive the elbow into the belly and turn out. You can get a similar response without having to hunt for the crossed thumbs over the back of the hand textbook thing. Works best if you have neck control with your other hand.

Although it's not the UFC I have used the variation above as a takedown during MMA style sparring. You may not get it on the same guy twice... But if they haven't seen it before you can pull it off once in awhile.

FWIW..

Dean



« Last Edit: October 23, 2008, 08:17:00 AM by usks1 »
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Hock

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Re: kote-gaeshi
« Reply #13 on: October 23, 2008, 09:04:50 AM »

Small joint manipulation.
What exactly does that mean? Fingers? Toes?
Seems to me submission fighters are always hunting wristlocks?
How many times have people tapped out in all the versions of ther UFC from wrist locks?


"The wrist is legal, but you don't see many go for it." - USKS1

from Dean's link-
    "Wrist locks are not considered small joint manipulation, however seeing as though the wrist is
     supported somewhat in the gloves that are used in UFC the effectiveness of such a technique
     is questionable."

Still there are gooseneck locks galore in UFC training, and have resulted in wins and tapouts.
Now, my point about this is, if wrist locks are legal and the outer wristlock or inner wristlock throws are so nifty, why don't we see them more in the ring, that laboratory? More or even some. Or, just even once in awhile?

I would like to propose that there cicular wristlock throws are indeed way HARDER to do that commonly taught in classrooms. Way harder (this is also common cop knowlegde) And that guys really looking to grapple and win have learned to take a pass on these circular throws and concentrate more on compressing the wrist is the dozens of ways taught today.

In other words, have circular wristlocks de-evolved out of the real laws of survival?

Hock
« Last Edit: October 23, 2008, 09:18:54 AM by Hock »
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usks1

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Re: kote-gaeshi
« Reply #14 on: October 23, 2008, 09:15:46 AM »

"Small joint manipulation" refers to the tarsal and metatarsal joints, as well as the carpal and metacarpal joints. That is, fingers and toes.

Go do a full wrist wrap, and then glove up with MMA gloves and then tape the wrists of the gloves. It's not gonna be easy to get that wrist to bend like you want it. Might be easier to strike or seek out another joint to snap.

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JimH

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Re: kote-gaeshi
« Reply #15 on: October 23, 2008, 12:17:40 PM »

A lock,wrist lock in particular,needs to be applied directly after or at the same time as a strike,or striking.
It can also be pulled off by surprise.

A cage fight does not lend itself to surprise,nor is the striking going to allow a set up for the grab to wrist lock application as the striking is expected.

A street fight which begins by verbal escalation and follows through to conflict also does not allow for a surprise grab ,unless the victim goes preemptive,and if it reaches conflict stage striking is anticipated.

A surprise street attack,mugging for example,now that lends itself to the victim striking the opponent unexpectedly,and it allows for surprise which will allow the grab off the bat.
If the attacker grabs , holds and goes verbal making threats then the strike and or lock can be applied and followed up on,as it was unexpectedl

If one allows the attacker to take the first shot on the street we can expect it to be a haymaker type swing and we can then,if we anticipated correctly,move into the target,strike and immobilize the limb and take control and execute the lock,wrist lock in this case.

Again unless pulled off up front,by surprise the wrist lock needs t be preceded by a strike or strikes to soften the target and make them sort of compliant partners.

My opinion on application
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Hock

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Re: kote-gaeshi
« Reply #16 on: October 23, 2008, 03:34:21 PM »

I think that the fact that it is so hard to pull of in these cage and UFC fights, is just a small piece of the evaluation puzzle. If anyone has seen one I'd love to hear about it.

For me, even if I stun the guy? There's still about 15 things smarter to do than try a outer wrist throw. Its real low on my totem pull. I would rather grapple with the elbow than the wrist, if I had to grapple with something.  Just me.

I still hear the ocassional story of a successful, outer wrist lock. I still keep it in the training program. I think everybody needs to work with one and know the nuts and bolts, but I teach it with GIANT warnings.

Hock

 
« Last Edit: October 23, 2008, 05:57:21 PM by Hock »
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ShooterMMA

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Re: kote-gaeshi
« Reply #17 on: October 23, 2008, 05:32:42 PM »

I have never seen wrist lock in MMA fight, and I saw it a lot.
U don't see it in MMA fight because its low procentage technick (I would say close to 0 %)

BJJ guy on video did it after they completely immobilized opponents hand with complete body lock (legs, arms, body), and only then they can do it. And again you can see it very rearly on BJJ, SW competitions, almost newer.

My opinion is you cant do any kind of lock (specially in stand up) only by hands (aikido, ju jutsu style), you must use all your body power (BJJ philosophy: position before submition) to do the lock.

That is the reason you don't see aikido, ju jutsu, chin na and other masters or technique's in MMA competition.

Hoch is wright when he say, u can do it with no resisting opponent, especially if first you showe him your badge, or your black sensei hakama.
« Last Edit: October 23, 2008, 05:42:02 PM by ShooterMMA »
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noload

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Re: kote-gaeshi
« Reply #18 on: October 23, 2008, 08:37:53 PM »

Well generally you'll rarely actually "lock" someone while standing, but you can get him to move or fall which is also a good thing. FWIW, so far outside of an Aikido school I've never seen a Kote-gaeshi throw someone. For laughs, next time you put a kote-gaeshi on someone step on their foot and see how they flip out of it.

Outside of learning the darn thing the times that I've applied it against a resisting opponent has mostly been during a grapple and it was when the other guy was resisting a standing arm bar or was pulling his elbow in for some reason. If he's balled up his fist it makes it even easier.

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Hock

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Re: kote-gaeshi
« Reply #19 on: October 23, 2008, 10:22:42 PM »

Did you read all that form the prior page?

,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,.......................

The human wrist turns 5 directions

    all the way to the right  (commonly your two hands on his one hand, twisted out)
    all the way to the left
    all the way backward
    all the way inward
    side to side

Each one produces a unique named tactic and its own common Japanese martial arts name. For example, twisting the wrist inward is often called Sankyo. So...well, why should I go on about the differing names...when the the Japanese names are here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wristlock

The shivworks pdf is showing "the gooseneck," or tekubi gatamae, not a formal defined kotegiesh.

,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,...............

...and one more point to this...the forearm on all these 5 wrist locks can be pretty much vertical (hand on top or bottom) or horizontal. This is the raw science of joint locks/joint cranks of the wrist.

Annndddddd....One last unabashed profit center sales pitch
http://www.hockscqc.com/shop/product193.html
for totally generic, non-demoninational, no-dress-up, what may or may not work warnings, cranks and locks

Hock

Hock

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Re: kote-gaeshi
« Reply #20 on: December 08, 2008, 07:45:38 AM »

This subject is getting a load of non-member/drive-by readership

Hock

michael

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Re: kote-gaeshi
« Reply #21 on: December 08, 2008, 10:11:16 AM »

I have never seen a wrist throw in the UFC, nor have I ever seen a wrist throw on the street. I have, however, used wrist locks of one sort or another numerous times during arrest situations. Usually this occurs after someone initially has complied and cuffs are beginning to be applied and a struggle ensues and I already have control of a wrist.

I think they have a very limited usage for most folks, other than LE, or in controlling your drunk cousin that you don't want to hurt. I would never attempt one against someone who is actively fighing you, and only view it for usage against a "passive resistor".
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JimH

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Re: kote-gaeshi
« Reply #22 on: December 08, 2008, 12:47:11 PM »

Kotegaeshi is not really a throw.
It becomes,or looks like a throw,when the practitioners throw themselves to prevent the break.

Unless the technique is performed on a practitioner who knows to throw themselves it just becomes a break.

When applied as a break most times the untrained will just drop down to their knee/s ,or sit ,or just stand there not knowing where or what to do and take the break.

Having the opponent throw themselves does not really do a service to the performer of the technique as it provides unrealistic finishes.

Practitioners who do not understand that the technique will not end as it does in the dojo are surprised when they find themselves facing an opponent who IS NOT prone.

My opinion
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juszczec

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Re: kote-gaeshi
« Reply #23 on: December 08, 2008, 02:10:46 PM »

In other words, have circular wristlocks de-evolved out of the real laws of survival?

I don't think so.  I think we're more easily able to discuss a wide range of people's experience with them.

FWIW, I've never done one outside of a "here try this" in a training session.

Mark

noload

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Re: kote-gaeshi
« Reply #24 on: December 08, 2008, 02:54:33 PM »

Kotegaeshi is not really a throw.
It becomes,or looks like a throw,when the practitioners throw themselves to prevent the break.

Unless the technique is performed on a practitioner who knows to throw themselves it just becomes a break.

Right on the money. Also those who do know how to throw themselves have been surprised by their inability to do so when I step on their foot while applying the technique.

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JimH

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Re: kote-gaeshi
« Reply #25 on: December 08, 2008, 06:00:44 PM »

When the grab is attempted,or made
I step to the outside of the attacking,grabbing limb
Pull the limb as reached for,and or step into the limb at angle if grabbed and pulled
as I put the technique ,kote gaeshi,on I attack the opponents knee on the attacking limb side
I drive the opponent to the ground as I simultaneously apply the breaking technique
Works very nicely
Opponent does not go prone
Technique breaks the wrist
Attacking the knee allows for another potential injury
If I then decide to leave I can
If I am employed in a job which requires an arrest,I can take the opponent prone.
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Hock

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Re: kote-gaeshi
« Reply #26 on: November 11, 2010, 06:45:28 PM »

I accidentally started another thread on this subject.

I will bump this up to the top.

Hock

 

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