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[Benjamin Liu]

How about this?   Before you receive ANY services from the Government, you must provide services for the Government.


You can run on a trend mill to generate electricity....  



....your choice.  

I don't see how someone can think a person who quoted Ayn Rand believes in welfare.   

Oh wait, you are REQUIRED to PAY taxes.    It's slavery I tell you, Slavery.

I'm also against income tax.


I'm probably the only Ron Paul supporter on this thread.

[Benjamin Liu]

I don't know, Scott. Maybe I'm turning Liberal, but some of those ideas make good sense.

A true Liberal believes in very limited government, and is somewhere between a Libertarian and a paleo-conservative. 

I guess on this forum, though, the differences between a Liberal and Libertarian are too small to be significant.

[whitewolf]

Ben-ok -no service-dont matter-just curious though

Glad you are into studying self defense-

How about you volenteeering at the local YMCA/YMJA to assist the younger generation in self defense class or if they have no openings try the local community center

Just a thought.

Yes I did some volenteering when i had my school in Tn

Now I am just a old white wolf 

[Benjamin Liu]

How about you volenteeering at the local YMCA/YMJA to assist the younger generation in self defense class or if they have no openings try the local community center

I've volunteered at a community college for three semesters, but that was teaching under someone else who was already established, and most of the time being the attacker for the girls to practice on.  I've also taught for a few years for free under different people who took in anyone who'd see the classes training in the park.  I have bigger ideas though.

Right now I'm designing a class program.  The big thing is getting a proposal that people in charge of facilities will accept, and in my experience that is difficult whether it is free or paid.  The person in charge of the community center in the town closest to me (well, the closest town with a community center  ) wouldn't even talk to me after I said I teach martial arts, seeing me as a threat to their Karate instructor.

[whitewolf]

Ben-exactly what happened to me a few times-the local Karate school had been in existance for a long time-when I came on the scene it was a threat in their eyes-so-i did not get to get envolved- what was really bad i had a chance to instruct at a state university but politics what it was i got beat out-anyway good luck in your endivers in the MA community-whitewolf (el  lobo blanco)

[Kentbob]

I agree that compulsive service of any sort is simply not what this country needs.  This gets back to the thread on who deserves the right to vote.  Welfare is not helping this country.  IIRC, the Clinton administration helped to toughen the nation's welfare laws, but not nearly enough.  Half-measures abound when anything is left up to the politicians.  Forcing someone to work, regardless of whether they earn a wage or not, is servitude in some form or another. 

BL, I voted for Ron Paul too.  I consider myself a Libertarian.  I already stated on the voting thread, the less government the better.  Aristotle said that the government has a certain responsibility to ensure that the lowest "class" of people have the means to maintain a certain quality of life, and I can agree with that.  People who legitmately can't work should be supported by the state.  Even the people who can but won't can recieve something.  There's always going to be people on the bottom, it's just the way life is.  A responsible government recognizes this, and ensures that these people's lives aren't completely miserable, but not to the point of coddling them, and seeing to their every needs.  For unemployment, especially in Georgia, there's a rigorous process of determining who recieves benefits.  Why not for welfare, too?  I admit, I'm not all that familiar with the welfare system, but I know at least one person, supposedly with a college degree, who in the past has refused to get a full time job, instead this individual was content to work just enough so that he could still collect his welfare check. 

There should be, in addition to basic needs being met, sufficient motivation for an individual to try to get ahead.  This is where the government can help.  Theoretically, if the government could take care of Mazlow's basic needs, then the individual in question can then attempt to better themselves. 

While three months is not a long time, what will this accomplish?  Most jobs take longer than three months to get acclimated to.  There would be a constant rotation of people, resulting in incredibly reduced  efficiency in the job/office in question.  Not to mention, since most 18 year olds are uninterested in actually working, the supervisor is going to spend more time babysitting than actually working. 

Our system is not just fine the way it is, but it is better than serfdom.  Prof, you're the one with the quote from Jeff Cooper about the slave society.  It astounds me that you propose this, which is serfdom in disguise.


Kent

[arnold]

Three months of street cleaning doesn't take a degree in rocket science.  But what I would propose is this. Hell Kentbob, look what I "taught" you in less than 2 hours. I'm sure you remember. This is brilliant, just truly brilliant.
Drop out of high school, you immediately go on "the program". 4 hours of school every day, 4 hours of work. 6 days a week. Pay them a Wal Mart wage, and charge them for the books. When they finish the "program" they have to do 6 months of service, but they continue to get paid.  We have enough uneducated boneheads wandering around doing jack shit. Now if they can't find a real job, they can stay on the program. But I have the answer. Read on!
Welfare... there would be no such thing. It would be called workfare. Same deal as above, throw in the food stamps along with health care. You could stay on the program and get an education or reeducated. Advancements would be available for those who could do more than broom and mop technology. Train them in a technical education. Electrician, plumbing, etc.
Jails and prisons... No such thing unless you're insane or on death row. You get to work to pay back society for being a pile of shit fuck up. ( See previous rants about "the wheel") Build prison farms like they had in NY when I was a "yuth". And chain gangs, absolutely terrific idea. Bring them back immediately.
Now, with all of the "educated" individuals, we can start building coal, oil and gas fired electrical plants. 2 per year in every state. Start solving the energy crisis now.
But Arnold, cry the liberal douchbags, where are we gonna get the money? well let's see. We already spend God knows how much on welfare, so there's a piece of it. Throw out the illegal aliens that suck up a huge amount of the public resources. There's another piece along with all of the other "programs" that the liberal morons have dreamed up in order to keep their "positions" of importance in society. There should be plenty of money to cover this. There wouldn't be a debris ridden street or neighborhood in the country and the energy crisis would start to get solved. Now you have the educated work force and the jobs for them to go to.
Unemployment and those on the dole would be reduced drastically.
Am I just this side of fucking brilliant or what?
Oh and as a side note... Hillary, Sec of state? My heads going to explode.

[Nick Hughes]

Hillary, Sec of state? My heads going to explode.

That evil piece of shite is going to be round for a long time yet...sadly.  She's probably already plotting to have Obama and Biden bumped off so she can assume the mantle.

Yer Uncle Knuckles

[whitewolf]

Im telling you guys if she makes SofS then her husband will be right there with her-that is the main reason i did not vote for Mac-
WW (ELB)

[Scott]

and the propaganda begins. (Where's Hitler's Youth)

Generation WE : The Movement Begins...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vknHKTy1MLY

I don't know, Scott. Maybe I'm turning Liberal, but some of those ideas make good sense.

- 10 Trillion dollars of national debt is inexcusable (and neither political party will address it)
- While I don't believe in Global Warming...isn't less carbon emissions better? As a hunter and fisherman, that just makes good sense to me.
- This new generation Has had to sit back and watch as the power hungry partisan hacks have ruined the country's economy, justice system, and overall political structure.

I think it is time for massive change (and Obama can't do it any more than McCain could) and like it or not...it's coming.

Keith, it ain't 10 trillion. It's more like 50+ trillion. The US is going to collapse....Big Time. We're just getting started. Obama doesn't have the funds to do what he wants to do. I a year or two there is going to be a hell of a lot of disapointed Obama supporters. See my new thread, esp the videos, on Gerald Celente and Peter Schiff and just how uncanny their past predictions have been. But here's two more:
David Walker on CBS 60 Minutes
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-7461407498377956300

http://www.iousathemovie.com/

these kids have a lot bigger problems...namely, if these 3 people are correct kids are going to have to learn to survive in this new world.

[arnold]

If Obama were to be "gone" we would be left with that idiot Biden and that turkey necked bonehead Pilosi. The Hindenburg disaster and the depression would be nothing to what those 2 members of the knucklehead club will dream up.

[Hock]

For those of you in Rio Linda...Maslow's "Ladder"

               http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maslow's_hierarchy_of_needs

[Kentbob]

Hey, Arnold, instead of coal, oil, and natural gas plants, how about nuke plants?  Much more efficient, and, I think, cheaper in the long run than Coal, oil, natural gas.  With the new pebble bed reactors, the plants are safer, too, IIRC.  Just a thought.  Workfare sounds much better than welfare.  Even people "unable" to work should be able to be given a task.  Something, anyway...


Kent

[shastana]

Thanks for the washover boys...I think there is a bigger picture and it isn't that simple.

Freedom is not free, yes I agree. But mandatory anything, especially implemented by gvt is the opposite of freedom.  Define Freedom, punch it in to Dictionary.com.
Interesting that the dictionary paints a very different picture.

Now, these kids these days are not the generation we want to force into service of any kind.  I wouldn't want half these kids near me in a war, let alone performing some mandatory civil service. They just don't have the stuffing, the gumption, to go all out and take pride in their work no matter what it is.  Times have changed and so have the youth.

As far as the military goes....Those who feel the pull to perform duty will do so, and are doing so.  And they are doing a great job!!  And military tactics have changed the last 20 years-technology, training, equipment...hell more now than ever there are fewer getting the job done, and Quality is the highest in our military due to these factors.  It really does take just a "few good men" to do the job in these modern times.  And those who volunteer today are there because they beleive in what they are doing.  That is the MOST important factor in keeping the Quality in our military.

If we were in a world war, then mandatory draft makes sense due to the scale of requirements.  But the conflicts we are in today are not even near the scale of WWI or WWII, or even Vietnam for that matter. Just look at the numbers committed to Iraq and Afghanistan, not even close.  And look at the current conflicts, the US gvt does not want to pull out of these locations because we are there not only to fight terrorism, but also to protect infrastructure we have invested in (pipelines, oil fields, shipping, etc).  (Yes we have pipeline across Afghanistan too).  I suspect the objective of "winning" or "mission accomplished" is very complex so we aren't going to complete the objective by merely committing more teens to the conflicts.

But I draw the line when I hear Americans talk about mandatory services of any kind, that goes against the very foundation of the philosophy of Freedom in America, the power to exercise choice and make decisions without constraint.  Think about this before you agree that mandatory service is a great idea!

And somehow we will turn the train wreck around, but I can tell you straight that it will NOT be the gvt doing it.  No gvt program or bailout plan will do it... Remember that gvt serves its own purposes First, then services its citizens. We got to stop looking to gvt to fix our problems, hell they are partly responsible for the major problems we have today, right?  It takes the will of the American spirit in each citizen to remain Free and the Desire to serve at home, at work, in society, and around the world to fix these problems.   We are the solution!  Think about it!

[Kentbob]

Thanks for the washover boys...I think there is a bigger picture and it isn't that simple.

Freedom is not free, yes I agree. But mandatory anything, especially implemented by gvt is the opposite of freedom.  Define Freedom, punch it in to Dictionary.com.
Interesting that the dictionary paints a very different picture.

Now, these kids these days are not the generation we want to force into service of any kind.  I wouldn't want half these kids near me in a war, let alone performing some mandatory civil service. They just don't have the stuffing, the gumption, to go all out and take pride in their work no matter what it is.  Times have changed and so have the youth.

As far as the military goes....Those who feel the pull to perform duty will do so, and are doing so.  And they are doing a great job!!  And military tactics have changed the last 20 years-technology, training, equipment...hell more now than ever there are fewer getting the job done, and Quality is the highest in our military due to these factors.  It really does take just a "few good men" to do the job in these modern times.  And those who volunteer today are there because they beleive in what they are doing.  That is the MOST important factor in keeping the Quality in our military.

If we were in a world war, then mandatory draft makes sense due to the scale of requirements.  But the conflicts we are in today are not even near the scale of WWI or WWII, or even Vietnam for that matter. Just look at the numbers committed to Iraq and Afghanistan, not even close.  And look at the current conflicts, the US gvt does not want to pull out of these locations because we are there not only to fight terrorism, but also to protect infrastructure we have invested in (pipelines, oil fields, shipping, etc).  (Yes we have pipeline across Afghanistan too).  I suspect the objective of "winning" or "mission accomplished" is very complex so we aren't going to complete the objective by merely committing more teens to the conflicts.

But I draw the line when I hear Americans talk about mandatory services of any kind, that goes against the very foundation of the philosophy of Freedom in America, the power to exercise choice and make decisions without constraint.  Think about this before you agree that mandatory service is a great idea!

And somehow we will turn the train wreck around, but I can tell you straight that it will NOT be the gvt doing it.  No gvt program or bailout plan will do it... Remember that gvt serves its own purposes First, then services its citizens. We got to stop looking to gvt to fix our problems, hell they are partly responsible for the major problems we have today, right?  It takes the will of the American spirit in each citizen to remain Free and the Desire to serve at home, at work, in society, and around the world to fix these problems.   We are the solution!  Think about it!

Dude, you're alright, I don't care what Arnold says about you. 

Seriously, I think you hit the head right on the nail.  Take, for example, the German military.  They have compulsory service, 2 years, IIRC.  Is there a doubt in anyone's mind that one of our battalions couldn't kick one of their battalion's behinds, before lunch?  I don't know what their manning roster looks like, but I would expect their positions more likely to be filled than ours are, but we have quality.  Stalin said that "Quantity is a quality all it's own", and that can be true, but do we really want to live in that kind of country?  Sure, if you throw enough of something at a particular problem, you'll eventually fix it, but that doesn't mean it's the solution.  Hit a nail with enough snowballs, and it will eventually get sunk in, but it's better to use a tool suited for the job, and in this case, compulsory service is not that tool, except for the powers that be.

Kent