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Author Topic: "Ninja" gun training  (Read 4080 times)

Hock

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"Ninja" gun training
« on: March 01, 2005, 10:38:44 AM »

There has been a term in policing as I recall for about 10 years or so now, that refers to over-the-top, or crazy gun training as "ninja-training." It pops up here and there.

What qualifies as ninja, gun training?

What is the craziest, weirdest gun training you've had to do?

Hock

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Re: "Ninja" gun training
« Reply #1 on: March 01, 2005, 12:31:36 PM »

Hock, I am the last one to use the term "Ninja" and also mentioned the DVDs.  First off it was not intended to down play videos yours or anybody elses.  I tend to type as I think, and not very properly in a grammatical sense.

What I was trying to say is that let's get this guy through the gun handling skills, malfunction drills, draw stroke, ect. before we introduce the combat shooting and worry about who's DVDs he buys or who he pays for instruction.  The important thing is that he gets it.

And I whole hartedly agree that too many "experts" or "elite shooters"  wow everybody with there range skills were the targets don't shoot back.

The best training, SIMS force on force, and SIMS (me) vs. fully automatic paintball gun (instructor).

The worst?  Aside from the the B.S. MILES training in the military - That little lazer gets deflected by a leaf or smoke.  It teaches soldiers that they can hide beind a bush as someone blazes away with an M-60.

I went to one shooting school that although teaching defensive/combat shooting worried too much about stance, as if you can hit the target with your foot here, but not there.  And worst of all, tried to instruct the class to close one eye. EVEN AT THE THREE YARD LINE!!  Only after seeing my shooting did they stop trying to correct my both eyes open style.

Then the Federal Law Enforcement Training Center (FLETC) where again, stance seemed to be very important.  On a practical excersise involving SIMS the senario had two officers pull up to a convience store to look for an individual for questioning.  While exiting the vehicle to approach individuals in the parking lot, a gun shot rang out in the "store".  After taking cover behind the car (closest cover),  the first indiviual runs out of the store unarmed.  A no-shot situation.  Suddenly the gunman exits the store.  After commands to drop his weapon, he raises it. 

At this point my partner and I fire hitting the gunman several time in the chest and head.  He goes down like a good role player.

Now I should mention that the car is in direct line of sight/fire of the open door.  The store is dark and I cannot see inside.  All of my previous training has been to shoot from cover, and then move to diff. cover.  If you continue to emerge from the same place you will get hit.  If the badguy figures out your pattern, he will be waiting to pop on in your head.

So after the gunman goes down, I move to diff. cover.  After reaching new cover, I signal my partner to do the same.  Well at this point the instructors are goin nuts, as we are not "playing by the rules".  In other words we were screwing up their canned senerio.

About this time I notice a door begin to open and a shotgun barrel start to emerge.  From my covered position, I order the gunman to drop his weapon and move to the open.  What a suprise for the gunman as this was another instructor and I was still supposed to be behind the car in that last known predictable location.

Well the argument afterwards almost got me thrown out of the acadamy.  I had some "expert" telling me that all of the training I receive in the Army on tactics, CQB and urban warfare were incorrect.  But then again it was his show, and sometimes you just have to shut up and smile.


Tactics and basics are all symantics.  Can you handle your weapon safely?  Can you hit your target?  Can you hit your target while not getting hit yourself?   As long as you can acheive those and your training works towards that goal, then who cares how you stand or anything else.  Just get the job done and survive the fight.
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Hock

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Re: "Ninja" gun training
« Reply #2 on: March 01, 2005, 01:44:01 PM »

So after the gunman goes down, I move to diff. cover.  After reaching new cover, I signal my partner to do the same.  Well at this point the instructors are goin nuts, as we are not "playing by the rules".  In other words we were screwing up their canned senerio. About this time I notice a door begin to open and a shotgun barrel start to emerge.  From my covered position, I order the gunman to drop his weapon and move to the open.  What a suprise for the gunman as this was another instructor and I was still supposed to be behind the car in that last known predictable location. Well the argument afterwards almost got me thrown out of the acadamy.  I had some "expert" telling me that all of the training I receive in the Army on tactics, CQB and urban warfare were incorrect.  But then again it was his show, and sometimes you just have to shut up and smile.

Wow!
I know of these canned things.
There is a particular course where ex SF guys run a ship course. Week after week there is a paint-ball ambush set-up that is supposed to wipe the team out. But, the rear security man in the team, one time, did a few things off the training charts and caught the SF guy coming around for the canned ambush.

The same thing for a flashlight course I know of. Part of the training is a built- in ambush. A student, whether by design or accident was in the "wrong hall" and killed the sneaking instructor.

What is the craziest thing you've had to do in a gun course? Something that pushed the limits of common sense. Ever have a gun instructor tell you to rely on ESP?

Hock

Rawhide

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Re: "Ninja" gun training
« Reply #3 on: March 02, 2005, 12:35:34 PM »

If you want to see some crazy disarms by a high ranking Bujinkan ninjitsu instrictor - check out Dick Severence's video.  Its a hoot.  He sure does some crazy ass things in taking the gun away!  Hell, he even disarms a guy with his knee.  Mostly enough to get you killed but VERY entertaining.   :D
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Cheat in the beginning, cheat in the end, cheat in middle...

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gumbey

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Re: "Ninja" gun training
« Reply #4 on: March 02, 2005, 01:23:27 PM »

The most stupid idea when taking firearms training at Lackland AFB and taking refresher training at my duty station was to switch to the weak hand when going around a corner to my left. The reason is for a lesser target. I've never seen that in any previous intruction. That to me is a waste of time and is an invitation to disarm if too close to a corner since it is easier to disarm a gun held in one hand. Personally, I don't believe in switching to weak hand unless my dominant hand is out of action. Despite what the instructors think, I always insisted on using what I feel works for me while others follow the "way" blindly. Another thing I don't get is shooting 2 handed from the weak hand as taught at Blackwater Training Center. Don't get me wrong. They are one of the best training centers in the country (best I've ever currently attended). I see that 2 hand, weak only as a waste of time as well. And, how can you shoot 2 handed from the weak hand if your strong hand is already rendered useless? Too much complex "Ninja" business.

fyi,
Ninjas called their firearm training "Hojitsu".
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Trembula

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Re: "Ninja" gun training
« Reply #5 on: March 02, 2005, 04:02:02 PM »

Two handed weak hand shooting? Hmm...

- What about if something happens to your trigger finger on your strong hand but the rest of it still works?
- What about a sprained wrist or slightly diminished arm... I.E. to the point where you know your weak hand accuracy is better than trying to shoot with your half-mangled "strong" arm.
- Or, you are drawing a backup weapon, carried on your weak side and you have time (and distance) to put two hands on it, but not enough to switch it to your strong hand (or you have one of the two conditions mentioned above)

Dan
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triggerman-t

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Re: "Ninja" gun training
« Reply #6 on: March 08, 2005, 09:49:09 AM »

To learn the effects that muzzle flash actually has in a CQB scenario, the instructor fired rounds between our legs, or would have us stand five feet apart and would demonstrate the difference of effect between muzzle flash of an AR and a pistol by shooting the target between the students while standing 5 yards out.  I learned that the noise, flash, and powder hitting you in the face is a pretty big distratction.  The point was, even if you don't hit your target on the first round, in close range you still have an effect and your target will react.  (don't mistake this to mean you should't hit the first round...but in chaos of battle....)

This may not be too crazy for most you guys in this forum, but really made the range owners s**t a brick.  Our group will not be invited back to that range again.
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Mariobrother

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Re: "Ninja" gun training
« Reply #7 on: April 13, 2005, 08:33:31 AM »

There has been a term in policing as I recall for about 10 years or so now, that refers to over-the-top, or crazy gun training as "ninja-training." It pops up here and there.

What qualifies as ninja, gun training?

What is the craziest, weirdest gun training you've had to do?

Hock


I throught the ninja just kills with there hands and go at night and doing stuff like that
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Hock

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Shooting while instinctively, reflexively ducking
« Reply #8 on: April 13, 2005, 09:04:59 AM »

I learned that the noise, flash, and powder hitting you in the face is a pretty big distratction.  The point was, even if you don't hit your target on the first round, in close range you still have an effect and your target will react.  (don't mistake this to mean you should't hit the first round...but in chaos of battle....)

This is the biggest, overlooked point in CQC gun training today. Being on the wrong end of the bang can easily destroy a shooter's traditional "platform" (range stance, grip, vision, etc) This problem runs deep, deep, deep in shooting schools and range doctrine.

Many people disagree with me, when in level 1 of my gun course I quickly have people shooting back at the student while they are learning to draw.  I do the same with the knife and stick courses. Stress Quick draws- I call them.
They argue that their must be some foundation built first.

We begin by throwing tennis balls at people drawing and shooting sims guns and the student has to dodge the ball and shoot. The ball acts as a visual aid of "incoming." If the student remains in the range stance? They usually get hit by the ball. We see if the dodging student hit the ball thrower.

The issue is, what is the definition of "foundation." What if that foundation is unrealistic and unatural? I think this early interactive, exchange experience sets the stage for everything they choose to study and evaluate for the rest of their lives.

Drawing while ducking and running is way more important than drawing while standing still, striking the super-shooter pose and popping paper targets. There is much depth to these points. These points can turn the shooting industry upside down, and rock shooting schools foundation, well like,...like having a gun go off right in heir face.

Hock
 

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