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[Joe Hubbard]

Okay, here’s the question: Will you or won’t you get cut in a real knife fight?  Some will say unequivocally that you will always get cut when a knife is in play.  A very small majority will say not necessarily so.

I have to state right up from that I have never been in a knife fight or even threatened with a knife.  However, I have been attacked with bottles three times and didn’t get cut or even hit with the bottle.  Realistically for me to deduce that just because these three events turned out the way they did doesn’t mean that the next time I won’t get clouted.

What surprises me are all the instructors who say you will get cut who have never been in one fight with weapons all because their instructor said so.  Or instructors who have been in couple of knife assaults and been cut and come to the conclusion that you will be cut every time you come up against a knife. 

Most of the fights I have been in have focused on unarmed with mixed environmental weapons (doors, walls, tables, chairs, edge of the bar, floor/pavement, etc.).  I have been in many of these fights and never received one punch or strike.  Conversely, I have been in many where I got my arse kicked.  Wouldn’t be safe to say that it is a toss up between a maybe or maybe not?

What are your thoughts?  All are welcome, even Ninor’s.

Ciao

Joe

[kamagong]

I have been in involved in altercations 4 times where the person tried to pull the knife (2x with a box cutter, 1x with a switchblade, 1x with a lockback folder).  Now, I say the person tried because they never got it out, I never let it clear their pocket or hiding place, I was always on them as soon as I saw a hand disapear somewhere.  So, I do not know if I am really qualified to answer this question.  I tell my students that they may get cut, that it is a high probability they will.  I don't tell them that they will every time because I think this creates a defeatist mentality, and they may get into the mind-set of take a cut to give a cut.  In a knife fight, we want to win, period.  By win, I mean we are the one who goes home that night, not just survives.  The person who survives could get just a few stitches, or have to pee and poo through a tube.  I would rather be the one who goes home 100% whole.  So, I tell my guys, do you want to come out of a knife fight 40, 50, 70, or 100%, if it is 100% then you better train that way and think that way.

I don't know if I answered your question or not Joe,  I tend to ramble.  Got hit in the head with a stick too much (plus 9 years of marriage)

[Kaliman33]

My opinion, I teach my students to expect to get cut, but minimize the damage to non vital area's if possible, if you are expecting it and it happens you are not going to freak out as bad as if i taught you you would never be cut and you were, make sense? I would hope i would'nt get cut but if you look at it like this,
You dont put on boxing gloves and not expect to get hit, you play with sharp objects you should expect to get cut.
just my 2 cents

Marc Halleck

[Nick Hughes]

Good topic...c'mon Hubbard you didn't think it up all by yourself did you mate 

A few years ago it was de rigeur to tell everyone "you will get cut in a knife fight."  I always had a problem with this because there's been lots of times when guys have pulled knives, bottles, razors etc and I have not been cut.

Since then I've heard instructors say...and I teach this...that it's a very real possibility but not guaranteed.  Methinks that's a far more realistic approach and that the older version is negative thinking.  When we train I have bottles of stage blood and makeup on hand and we pour liberal doses of this on people at various times during the class so they're used to seeing "claret" on them when they're knife training/fighting.  The military has done this for years during exercises..casualties lying round covered in ketchup...the idea being you become inured to seeing blood and gore.  Some SF guys I know - and I believe the SAS still do this to - have you crawl through a pool full of sheeps guts and offal/blood etc for the same reason i.e. crawling through same on a battlefield isn't going to render you a quivering wreck.

For the record I've been stabbed and slashed 13 times.  Most were minor and required nothing more than stitches.  The bad one was a collapsed lung.  If memory serves I only saw about 3 of those 13 weapons while fighting.  The rest were discovered after the fight was over, sometimes hours later, and you feel wet or someone spots the blood and you realize what's happened.  We used to keep an old medical kit round that had some field dressings from a surplus store and tampons to throw in any big holes.  You whack a bandage on it, elevate and go to the emergency room...if it's early enough in the night you go back to work.

I'm imagining that guys like Hock and others that have had the pleasure of training in the Philippines have had the same experience as Pat O'Malley who used to train with Bobby Breen.  He was in Cebu training with a live blade and got cut on the forearm.  He figured it would go down like home in the UK, i.e. rush to the emergency room, novocaine injection, sutures, bandages and no training till it healed.   They sent him over to gramps on the porch who stuck some sutures in with fine fishing line, patted him on the arse and sent him back out for more training.

Ray Dianaldo has a plethora of these suture marks all over his arms and I've seen Bobby Taboadas collection of scars one day (we were comparing war wounds ).  I think once you've had a couple it tends to freak you out a lot less than the first one.

As Kaliman said, the trick is to try and minimize the serious cuts.

[Professor]

Okay, here’s the question: Will you or won’t you get cut in a real knife fight?  What are your thoughts?  All are welcome, even Ninor’s.

Ciao

Joe

Maybe, possibly.....give it enough time, yes.   Stop the threat quickly and there's less time to get hurt.   

[cgonzales]

once when i was young i got in fight with a guy who pulled a folder out and i ran away at high speed and didnt get cut at all. dont know if that counts but ive been in a few running gun battles and been shot more times than not and once at a public shooting range and each time i was able to handle it a little better than the last. I just dont recomend it as a conditioning drill

[Crazyguywithasword]

Won't always happen, there aren't any absolutes in combat. So theres no always and never. But if you don't expect it and you get cut bad (by bad i dont mean in a bad spot, but in a way that bleeds a lot, hurts like hell, and looks horrible) than you could freak out and hesitate, at which point the person who cut you is gonna take advantage of it to finish you off.

[usks1]

" dont know if that counts but ive been in a few running gun battles and been shot more times than not and once at a public shooting range and each time i was able to handle it a little better than the last. I just dont recomend it as a conditioning drill "

Well that explains a few things bro.....   

[Joe Hubbard]

Okay, I understand where some of you are coming from, but do you think that it will prepare somebody for the reality of being cut by just telling them that they should expect to get cut?  Some here seem to be going down that road with this topic.  I like the desensitisation drill that Ninor had with the fake blood and the SAS “rolling in animal guts” drill (Prof can we organise this for the next seminar?)

I know several people who have recounted stories to me where they were cut and even though they were bleeding heavily, they never realised until a half an hour later.  They just assumed it was the other guy’s blood.  Wouldn’t this thwart the idea that if somebody was cut, they would immediately freak out and go into shock?  Or is this just a result of what the person in question believes to be happening at the moment?

Interesting replies- keep them coming.

Ciao

Joe   

[Nick Hughes]

Joe,

I think the key is they thought it was the other guys.  We see a similar thing with little kids playing.  They fall down, scrape their knee and are bleeding BUT they haven't seen it yet and keep playing.  30 minutes later one of their friends points it out and they start screaming.

BTW if someone can tell me how to get an email jpg pic on here (or if I can send it to someone who can post it here) I'll put up a cool picture of one of our "made up" victims at my last seminar in PA.

N

[Professor]

I like the desensitisation drill that Ninor had with the fake blood and the SAS “rolling in animal guts” drill (Prof can we organise this for the next seminar?)

Get the OK from Rawhide, I'll have a trailer load at the next seminar.   

[michael]

I don't think you will always get cut, but I do think there is a definite chance that you will. I like what Kelly McCann says about it--you may get cut, but don't go into thinking that you will get cut, but be prepared for it if it happens. Is telling someone they may get cut enough? No way, it's no different than telling them they may die of cancer or get hit by a train. It does not prepare them mentally. You can prepare to a certain degree through scenarios, but nothing prepares you for being injured in a real fight. I've fought with several people I was trying to arrest that had a knife, but like the above poster, I never allowed them to get it fully deployed and into the fight, so I don't think these qualify as a "knife fight". The only person who actually charged me with a knife I shot, so that doesn't really qualify either, as I was never cut. The best we can hope for aside from real experience is realisitic scenarios and mental preparation, but no one will know how they will react until they are hurt and until they are charged by the elephant. I have seen officers I worked with thrive in the chaos, and I have seen them collapse into a quivering pile of jello.

[Professor]

Joe,

I think the key is they thought it was the other guys.  We see a similar thing with little kids playing.  They fall down, scrape their knee and are bleeding BUT they haven't seen it yet and keep playing.  30 minutes later one of their friends points it out and they start screaming.

BTW if someone can tell me how to get an email jpg pic on here (or if I can send it to someone who can post it here) I'll put up a cool picture of one of our "made up" victims at my last seminar in PA.

N

Send it to me at:  drjeffallen@gmail.com and I'll host it and post it.

[Nick Hughes]

Prof,

Pics sent.

N

[Professor]

Prof,

Pics sent.

N

Think attachment......   

[Professor]

Two picture by Ninor:

[mleone]

The cut???

Hmm?
Well I wouldnt want any one to think of "expect to get cut" the point is do not get cut!
If you do so be it be, focus on whats going on.  The majority of the untrained criminals want to just stab as much as they can.  Like Hock says I guy can take several cuts before he really starts going down. Some are relying on fear tactics (telling you dont move) or (Ill cut your face pretty boy)Using a scare tactic to make you freeze in the moment.

How ever think about it this way?
What happens when you do get cut?
Some go into shock the moment they are "surprise" cut.
So most shock sets in when its an ambush.

When you are aware of the cutting you do not go into "surprise" that much.
Therefore the adrenaline sets in and allows cortisol to run through your body.
Part of our defense mechanism.

So it depends if its a surprise attack (yes you will get cut)
or an awareness attack (you might get cut) (But try not too)
If he is a good knife fighter you wont see it coming.


So put a knife fight into 2 areas:

Surprise attacks
Aware attacks

[Dick Grogan]

I think Hock does a good job of dispelling what can and cannot absolutely happen. Like he says, knife assailants just might be really dumb, uncoordinated, fat, weak, drunk, etc., because, who in their right mind would start such a fight without having some problems to begin with?

I think in a 'fair knife duel' it's probably a given that you're going to get cut, but we know they don't really exist. Well, they don't exist in any lawful setting anyway. If you find yourself in a knife duel, it's probably your fault in the first place.

 I study/teach a traditional Korean sword martial art, Gumdo (pretty close to Kenjutsu), and we say that there are really only 2 outcomes to a sword duel: 1 person hur and, the other dead or both dead. Again, maybe this isn't 100% the case, but it gives a mindset. More importantly though, it's safe to say that simply because sword duels don't exist anymore. If you find yourself in a sword duel, you probably deserve to die just for thinking that you live in 15 century Japan.

[fkruger]

This is a hard question to answer. We always train to expect a cut but also to try to minimize getting cut in vital areas. I think (uh oh I'm thinking again) that being able to realize that getting cut is a possibility. Just be prepared to do what it takes to survive if you are cut and try not to give your adversary and opening to vital organs.

I had knives pulled on me 3 times and never was stabbed. I also had guns pointed at head once and my chest another time. Still not sure why I wasn't shot or stabbed, just better count my blessings.

Mike