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Author Topic: Thoughts on various chokes  (Read 3989 times)

whitewolf

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Thoughts on various chokes
« on: May 20, 2009, 08:18:08 AM »

Lately I have been reviewing and practising correct way to  hold hands while applying various chokes using the shirt collar.

My question is =Is it better to slowly put the squeeze on using the part of the hand that actually makes contact or should one sort of "snap" the wrists and put the choke on quickly . As the idea is to cut off the blood supply to the brain which will be more effective?  WW (ELB)
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Canuk

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Re: Thoughts on various chokes
« Reply #1 on: May 20, 2009, 08:51:29 AM »

Hmmm, whats your ultimate goal here? Ihave never liked relying on clothing to do anything to anyone. I do like the short, sharp, shots to the front of the throat though. Gives them something to think about as the gag reflex kicks in.
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whitewolf

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Re: Thoughts on various chokes
« Reply #2 on: May 20, 2009, 11:14:51 AM »

Canuk-goal is putting a attacker asleep when assaulted during a response to a domestic
or fight here in kuwait- I cannot beat the shit out of them-that does not go over to good with the upper management- WW (ELB)
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whitewolf

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Re: Thoughts on various chokes
« Reply #3 on: May 20, 2009, 11:23:45 AM »

Canuk-sorrry little tired- I meant to also say I want to know chokes for training in BJJ-on the ground-sorry about that-WW (ELB)
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JimH

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Re: Thoughts on various chokes
« Reply #4 on: May 20, 2009, 02:20:35 PM »

Chokes for the purpose of a knock out rather than a tap out should be applied hard and fast.
If you apply the choke slowly it gives them too much time to fight back and or attempt to counter.
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Crafty

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Re: Thoughts on various chokes
« Reply #5 on: May 20, 2009, 02:26:43 PM »

I agree with jim quick.
« Last Edit: May 20, 2009, 02:39:39 PM by Crafty »
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Hock

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Re: Thoughts on various chokes
« Reply #6 on: May 20, 2009, 03:40:50 PM »

Chokes have been taught with "martial asts mystery" and it seems, numerous magic add-ons and applications have been added in Gracie and MMA era.

Many of these add-ons involve the hand positioning, as the experts go after the hands/fingers as counters. I have broken a guy's pinky who left his choking limb/hand/fingers exposed to me. A ground fight so to speak as he jumped me and pulled me down. Fingers attacks can play in sloppy chokes.

I really try to de-mystify the choke and uncomplicate the basic idea when I teach them in Level 6 of the Unarmed Course. I guess its harmless to learn these many other hand positions if one has the time.

I have arrested about 1500 people and have choked out...maybe 20? 25? I really can't say for sure. Plus, I have seen another 20-ish(?) or so people choked out by my comrades.  This does not count MA classroom training time where a full, choke-out was pretty much an accident in a class.

I will say that I have used an "advanced" hand position when a guy was going for my gun while I was choking him - his back to my front and on the ground...well, both of us laying on top of some furniture, actually - by grabbing the back of my own head and neck with my choking arm and arching my back, this freeing my other hand to grab and protect my pistol. This attempted pistol grab freaked me out so I choked this guy out cold.

So, I do teach this clothing or neck and head grab, hand position as an option, since I learned how important it was to me. I can't say who taught it to me, must have been police academy trainers or the informal police judo sessions. I tell armed folks to use the non-gun arm to choke so you can free your gun arm to protect your pistol and mainatin a choke with this hand trick.

Other than that, I teach very simple chokes and neck restraint takedowns.

I always say there are early, mid and late phase counters to most moves. But, there is no late phase counter to a good choke, no matter the hand postions.

Hock
« Last Edit: May 20, 2009, 10:24:42 PM by Hock »
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Canuk

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Re: Thoughts on various chokes
« Reply #7 on: May 20, 2009, 06:13:05 PM »

One of my very good friends (brother) had some tool go for gun the other week. My buddy applied a retention tactic and then gave him a God almighty knee to the nuts, dropped him hard. Nothing to do with chokes, just thought i'd mention it
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harvey

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Re: Thoughts on various chokes
« Reply #8 on: May 20, 2009, 08:59:22 PM »

I will assume your talking about a cross collar choke from mount or knee on belly position. If your going up against a untrained person then putting  the choke on fast and hard is a good idea. If its a very dedicated opp. or experienced grappler then you might blow your wad going fast and hard. My experience is if your going up against a dedicated opp., smart opp., or experienced grappler then you put the choke on about 70% then there out before they realize it as along as your truly attacking the carotids. The problem with these cross collar chokes is you need both of your hands to apply leaving your firearm at risk. Hock got me thinking and there is a collar choke when you have your opp. back and you use only one hand around the neck grabbing his collar and the other grabs the opp. leg and we call it the bow and arrow choke. This is a very powerful choke and its always better to be behind when choking of course. Check this link out below. I hope this gives you some ideas. Obviously some sport type techniques have to be modified for the street.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KjlTYfNyT68

thanks
Harvey

« Last Edit: May 20, 2009, 09:53:54 PM by harvey »
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whitewolf

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Re: Thoughts on various chokes
« Reply #9 on: May 20, 2009, 09:17:03 PM »

Thank you-makes good sense-in a street situatiom it apears that a "knocki out type blow is safer"

At the same time when I train and am on the ground with other students in a BJJ session -unless they have been doing it awhile they get frustrated when "chokes"
are tried/applied-

My personnel way (as taught) is to get to the back-you are now in a advantage as yoou can move quickly then and it seems to be faster than the other guy-then attempt to apply various chokes

From the front when you start to apply a choke they go into defense and you are ahead of the game (again against the newer opponents)

What i like is that it is like a chess game -I am not to good at it (yet) but try to think a move ahead-so i can try the tactic.

WW (ELB)
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whitewolf

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Re: Thoughts on various chokes
« Reply #10 on: May 21, 2009, 12:57:48 AM »

I reviewed the responses -all sound good-builds up the tool box

Here is what I have thought about-any of you guys who have partners -try it and ses if it is workable or to complicated-?? i added to it....

Kata-Juji-shime (single cross hold 1)-fromKazuzo Kudo book Judo in action (its old)

1-you wind up on tiop-stradling-right palm to face-my addition
2-grab left lapel -fingers inside using your left hand-thumnb side towards artery
3-my addition-take right  palm strike his jaw pushing it to his left shoulder area
then quickly move same hand to his right collar little finger side againsty neck
twist hands and pull towards each other-tighten the strangle
The push/strike to the jaw dislocated it hopefully
should be done quickly..

In a BJJ arena  do not strike face only push the jaw aside do not attempt  to break/dislocate

WW (ELB)

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loyalonehk

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Re: Thoughts on various chokes
« Reply #11 on: May 21, 2009, 01:25:51 AM »

Quick Question WW,

Are you still in Kuwait?   :P

Doc
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whitewolf

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Re: Thoughts on various chokes
« Reply #12 on: May 21, 2009, 02:06:04 AM »

Loyal- yes I am- Mrs went home to help the grankids -I try to keep busy in any kind of training i get get-I went to Hocks seminar a few months ago in Maridian and had a great time-i learned a lot and met some very nice guys there- WW (ELB)
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whitewolf

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Re: Thoughts on various chokes
« Reply #13 on: May 21, 2009, 02:50:38 PM »

Harvey- I just watched the vidio-great-the guy in the white just never gave up till he got the hold you mentioned-WW (ELB)
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harvey

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Re: Thoughts on various chokes
« Reply #14 on: May 26, 2009, 01:16:51 PM »

Check this clip out below just another ideal on how to apply chokes this one more for competition but the head and arm choke could be viable for the street in certain situations. This guy(Ari Bolden) is a purple belt(BJJ) under Eddie Bravo and also has blackbelts in 2 traditional jujitsu styles. His website(submissions101.com) has some pretty good techniques on it not just BJJ but self defense as well.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wfcAUsGYMas


Harvey
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whitewolf

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Re: Thoughts on various chokes
« Reply #15 on: May 26, 2009, 07:19:35 PM »

Harvey- thanks- interresting I do a lot of practising the squeeze holding a pillow while watching tv-and the idea of 10% squeeze incrments is good idea-they dont know )as he says how much you hav left for strength-good for a older guy like me- (psych  them out ;D---white wolf (ELB)
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Robert Robbins

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Re: Thoughts on various chokes
« Reply #16 on: June 06, 2009, 11:23:32 PM »

You might check out Burton Richardsons` book on chokes from Paladin Press. I think it is mostly no-gi material, but it shows many, many variations and set ups.  If you have questions, you can e-mail Burt directly and he will respond.  Very cool guy.

« Last Edit: June 06, 2009, 11:30:32 PM by Robert Robbins »
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"You may not be intersted in war, but war is interested in you."

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whitewolf

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Re: Thoughts on various chokes
« Reply #17 on: June 07, 2009, 12:56:38 AM »

Thank u for the info on chokes -do u have Richards e  mail? WW (ELB)
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Hock

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Re: Thoughts on various chokes
« Reply #18 on: June 07, 2009, 05:57:25 AM »

Type in
                Burton Richardson

and you'll find his webpage and email.

Burt is a very nice guy and does a lot of good things, but I gotta' say he made one of the worst choke films I have ever seen. I haven't seen his book. I sincerely hope it is not like the film. FULL of extranious, unnecessary, non-choke, BJJ material. It brought knew meaning to word "sleeper." You can probably see some of it on U-tube. Type in Burts name on the infamous U-tube.

Look...chokes are not at all mysterious and you do not need a college degree to learn how to choke. Its an essay or an article's worth of material, not a normal-sized book, not even a film.

Hock


whitewolf

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Re: Thoughts on various chokes
« Reply #19 on: June 07, 2009, 06:10:18 AM »

Hock thanks- ill check the u tube out and also type his name to see what he is talking about-i agree (thanks) the chokes i have been shown by various instructors were shown practised and we move on-then when i used them on the mat if done right and quick i got the choke (sometimes- ;D)
WW (ELB)
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