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Author Topic: Defendo CQB  (Read 20340 times)

Kentbob

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Defendo CQB
« on: March 17, 2005, 10:08:45 AM »

Has anyone seen the advertisements for Defendo CQB?  They run in Black Belt Magazine pretty regularly.  I can't remember who developed it, or teaches it, I think his name is Bill Wolfe.  I do know that he has a military background.  Anyhoo, I was wondering if anyone on here is familiar with the material and what, if anything, their opinion of it is.  Thank you.


Kent
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MDTS

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Re: Defendo CQB
« Reply #1 on: March 17, 2005, 10:29:02 AM »

The material and tapes are VERY GOOD if your interest is straight forward combatives.

As far as Martial Arts, Wolfe is a high ranking Hapkido guy and some of his background has been questioned as to his aquisition of the Military Defendo Material. That being said, its still good material and very good production quality.

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Milldog1776

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Re: Defendo CQB
« Reply #2 on: March 17, 2005, 10:34:19 AM »

has been questioned as to his aquisition of the Military Defendo Material. That being said, its still good material and very good production quality.



Yeah...I don't know about that. It's a shame that the market is in such a way that people won't buy your tape unless you've kicked Bruce Lee's ass, slaughtered a platoon of Gurkhas, and trained Navy Seals since you were 8 yrs old. Ever notice how everyone teaches the Seals now adays? How many Seal teams are there? How many instructors claim to teach them. Hock, why don't you teach Navy Seals? ;D

I'm gonna put out a series of tapes, and on the front it's gonna say..."I don't know anybody cool, Haven't kicked anybody's ass you know, but I saw a seal once in San Fransico Bay." Wonder if it would sell?
« Last Edit: March 17, 2005, 10:36:38 AM by Milldog1776 »
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JimH

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Re: Defendo CQB
« Reply #3 on: March 17, 2005, 04:03:31 PM »

Hi,
The defendo course put out by Bill Wolfe is said to be  based upon WW II combatives,sorry but what he offers is not this case.

I have the full 10 brick set and what is shown on them is mainly aiki arts.

Mr Wolfe's Background is in Hapkido and Aikido so I imagine that is where he draws his techniques from.

A Friend that I train with in New York  attended the Defendo New York Seminar and he agreed that the techniques are definately Hapkido,aiki based.

Mr Wolfe says  his instruction is from people like Fairbairn and Sykes,yet some of his techniques could resemble Bill underwoods combato/Defendu,which were designed for police as joint locks,holds and escorts.
(I make that assumption from viewing Mr Underwoods Book Combato)
.................................................................................................................
As far as people who claim to have trained Special Operators and the Elite of the Military and Police,I agree with Trembula.
Isn't it funny that the majority are civilians who have never served,yet they have skills required by the military,lol.

The Military Units have brought in Thousands of trainers from varied martial backgrounds.
The purpose is to see if any of it is useful and also to see what is popular that is out amongst the populace that they may encounter at some time.

I  know people who have traditional Martial arts schools near a military base that happens to house Special Operations members and if one or two operators join the class the school owner writes a  Headline that they train Special Operations people.

If the course offered  says they train Elite Police and Military,if the  techniques are many,complex and contain fine motor skills then save your money and move on.

If you want to know what elite Military and police train in and know  Join their ranks and stand by to be surprised.
OR
Go to a base that Houses them and their units and ask some.

Most Bases are open and Most elite Units have a Unit identifier,such as a Beret color,Badges and insignia on their uniform so you can try to talk to them,if you are genuine they will tell youwhat they train.

Most train very little in marial arts as the primary function is to snoop and poop and not be seen.
If they are seen or their orders include engagement they use weapons like a radio to call in air strikes,extractions or help.
Rifles,pistols,knives(which are trained minimally) and minimum hand to hand or what some one on the team or in the group knows and is willing to share to fill PT time.

If the Elite Police and Military had the answers and the secrets would there not be a long line of Elite Schools for civilians to join?

Look at former members of Elite units who have schools they teach Traditional arts,nothing exotic or fancy.

As said Let the Buyer Beware.




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JimH

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Re: Defendo CQB
« Reply #4 on: March 17, 2005, 04:12:16 PM »

As a follow up to my above.

Mr wolfe's Defendo is good for what it is repackaged Hapkido/Aiki art.
As a Hapkidoist I thought it was good.
From a point of being for military or police many of the moves  are too complicated and require a finer motor skill level than maybe found in a Real situation.

Sorry I forgot to include this above.
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SplCell101

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Re: Defendo CQB
« Reply #5 on: March 17, 2005, 11:10:51 PM »

yeah i could care less what its based on...if he got some aspects from Fairbairn or Applegate or Sykes or whoever then great if not then thats cool too...all i know is that i think it would be a great addition to my SFC material and my Haganah material.

Jason
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billcox

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Re: Defendo CQB
« Reply #6 on: March 18, 2005, 06:35:38 AM »

People too often look at/for systems.  I think it is more import to look at who you are training with and does the material fit into what you expect. We are smart enough to determine what is and is not B.S.  I purchased the CORE dvd and found the material very useful and most of the moves could be done under real world situations.  From what I know of WWII material, there are some similarities.  He states the material is based on the WWII stuff but updated for modern times. (paraphrased but very close).  I would say that is not false advertisment. If there was a newby to train I could reasonably show him this material or actually give him the DVD and feel confortable that he is getting real world information. I can not say that about alot of the DVD/tape materials I have seen or a good number of the instructors I have met.

Again, you are smart enough to see through most of the B.S. Even newbies to martial arts have had some type of fighting experience and they slowly see through the B.S. as well.  If not, they listen to others and may get the idea.
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JimH

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Re: Defendo CQB
« Reply #7 on: March 18, 2005, 08:09:17 AM »

The problem lies in what he calls what he does.
Denfendo/defendu is what Fairbairn,Sykes,Applegate,Biddle and O'Neil Taughts as WWII combatives.
Mr Wolfe Claims that this is the base of what he teaches,which it is not.

I state this as a clarifier,( a person versed in the true term defendo,but not the material could be misled)

If I claimed to teach JKD and what you got was Hapkido,even if the stuff was good,people in the know would call me on the carpet.

Again the material is good for what it is repackaged hapkido/aikido.

Some of the techniques maybe useful in conjunction with an existing art.

Much of it is too complex to be used on the street,and definately well beyond that which could be used by police or military,unless we take singular movements from the system rather than series of techniques
(alot of the series take fine motor skill and pinpoint attacks which in a real dynamic situation is near impossible,example,finger locks and wrist locks,)

Again the material is good for what it is,I am not insinuating it is BS material,nor am I insinuating  people can not make their own desicions,but it is not defendo/defendu.
(again just clarification of what it is and is not)

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Joe Hubbard

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Re: Defendo CQB
« Reply #8 on: March 18, 2005, 10:25:09 AM »

Yeah Hock, that was Alan Cain of The London Scottish Regiment.  He is a certified instructor under Wolfe and has nothing but good things to say about him.  I myself had some communication with Bill a few years ago when I was trying to find out more information about the Fairbairn Shanghai days and he couldn’t have been more helpful. 

You know I have seen a couple of his tapes and loads of his clips and I really disagree that what he does is repackaged Hapkido.  I do know he has modified what he does (which is in all of his advertising), but he does have lineage through this system via his military training.  Fairbain & Sykes never used the term “Defendo”; it was “Defendu.”  In fact Defendu was a generic term in Britain for “training”, hence the clash between the Bill Underwood system.   Bill Wolfe was a soldier and a cop for years and seems to be a real stand up guy.  It doesn’t surprise me at all that he is being slated by the “So-Called WW2 Gods.”

Cheers

Joe
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Trembula

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Re: Defendo CQB
« Reply #9 on: March 18, 2005, 10:43:45 AM »

WRT WW2 stuff that some folks have mentioned here, Biddle/Styers and the FAS (also including O'Neill here since he was a Fairbairn protege from some stuff I have read) are as different as orange juice and milk and integrate together about as good as those two beverages taste when mixed in the same glass. The two methods were very different.

See my article from CQC Mag for more amplifying details on the Biddle Method.

Oh, FAS just became the most famous of the WW2 folks by virtue of the books they wrote and a bunch of bad historians who didn't dig any deeper to find some of the other guys who were just as tough and often had something better to say... Plus there is this fascination with the OSS and British Royal Marine Commandos that makes folks go ga-ga and bow down to worship the ghosts of these three fellows. More "low speed" and "high drag" outfits that are far less glamorous like the US Coast Guard and the American Navy pilots had some great stuff too. And for ever guy who wrote a book, there were probably two hundred or more equally talented folks who taught their folks to kick ass and gave them the info to help them come back alive whose names and techniques have been lost to history...

Dan
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JimH

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Re: Defendo CQB
« Reply #10 on: March 18, 2005, 11:17:00 AM »

Mr Wolfe does have years in the Canadian Police and Military.

Again experience in a unit or on a force does not mean that what is taught by a member is applicable to all,or that an outsider brought in to train a unit means that material is applicable to all.

Now if Mr Wolfes course is trained by some in Units such as the Royal Marines,that doies not mean that it is trained by the Royal Marines.

Now from a Personal view as some one who trained with and Graduated from The Royal Marine Commando school,although I did the course in the later part of the 70s,from friends that are  in,the course is the same as when I went through.
Milling or Boxing and Combat Judo,the course has not gotten into fine motor skill actions such as wrist locks and finger locks or other long drawn out tachniques.

As someone who was also a member of an SF team, what was trained in and what was taught to others during FIDs and uS forces training was combat Judo/combatives type material,not a complicated system of fine motor skills.

Again this does not mean that parts of the Course Mr Wolfe teaches are not useable but his course is not taught through the British Army or the Royal Marines though some members may train in it,and some units may bring him in to show his stuff,it is not unit wide SOP.

Sorry Joe, but Mr wolfes system is Hapkido/aikido over WWII combatives.
Look at the Faibairn ,Sykes,aoolegate material and tell me that is what wolfe teaches?
It is not.
As I have his whole Brick series i guess I am  qualified to say what he teaches.
Since I have a Background in Hapkido,Aikido and combatives i guess I know what i am looking at.
Sorry,as a Hapkidoist I see the aiki aspect more so than the true Defendo teachings.

As I said in another post,Mr Wolfes material is more Aiki  based and is closer to Bill Underwoods teachings than Fairbairns and Sykes.

He may tell you the history of WWII combatives but what he teaches is not defendo,which is what it he calls his art.

If something you come across is useful,use it,if not then disregard it.

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JimH

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Re: Defendo CQB
« Reply #11 on: March 18, 2005, 01:08:22 PM »

If you want to see the same moves and techniques as on Mr Wolfes videos and what he teaches at seminars ,here are a few  people who have videos out with the same material:
Miquel Ibarra- Aiki Jitsu
John Pelligrini- Combat hapkido
Wally Jay- small circle Jujitsu
Robert Koga- pratical aikido
Bong Soo Han-Hapkido
Even steven Segals-Aikido Path to wisdom
The same techniques  and teachings of Mr Wolfe can be seen in all of these videos.
The common denominator of all,including Mr Wolfe is the aiki arts aspect.
 
Now look at Videos,teachings and materials by
Nelson
Cestari
Kelly McCann
Kasper
 
Look at the books by Fairbairn,Applegate,Sykes even Marine Corps Manuals prior to the implementation of the LINE.
 
Tell me if there is a difference in  what is defined as Combatives versus aiki Art.

Combatives means to encounter the enemy and drive through them with an aggressive assault,this means to atack,attack attack,it does not menat to lock up and hold or submit.

Mr Wolfe says his system is combatives,it is not.
Mr Wolfe claims his style is lineage from Defendu as espoused by Fairbairn,it is not.
Look at Mr Wolfe's Martial arts bio and see where the techniques come from ,he may have gotten combatives training in the Canadian Forces but this is not what he is teaching.
Mr Wolfe  should say his Teachings are in line with Mr Underwood the man who coined the term Defendo,which is more along Mr wolfe teachings in Police compliance ,locks and holds.
 
My background with the Military and LEO training and my years in various arts allows me not to worship at the alter of anyone,yet I believe if you say you teach something then that should be what  you teach.

If you believe what you see is combatives then believe as you wish.

The original question was "what does everyone think" and this is my opinion based on my background ,knowledge of the subject portrayed and knowledge of what I have seen  of Mr Wolfe's ENTIRE Package of material,of course it is just an opinion as is all that is put forward on a website, we are all entitled to our own view,this is mine.

The easiest way to know if material will fit what you are looking for is to buy it,try ,see it,experience it and form YOUR opinion as others  always inject their view.(as I have my view)

The CORE is cheap compared to the BRICK so buy it and see if it fits your needs.
If MR Wolfe does a seminar try it and see it.

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Kentbob

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Re: Defendo CQB
« Reply #12 on: March 18, 2005, 03:15:31 PM »

Wow, that really touched off more replies than I was expecting.  Thanks for the insight, from all of you.  As far as what SF learns, or the regular army, or whoever, the rangers, it is all pretty much the same stuff right now.  It is just about all based on the U.S. Army Combatives, which is based on Brazilian Jiu Jitsu, with a couple other "things" thrown in.  I have revised my estimation of the modern army combatives, but I don't agree with teaching soldiers to go to the ground right away.  The Bill Wolfe stuff sounds interesting, though, and it sounds like it would mesh pretty well with everything else that I have learned. 
    Thanks for everyone who replied, its good to see that people out there actually know this guy and can back up his reputation.


Kent
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ExJKD

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Re: Defendo CQB
« Reply #13 on: March 18, 2005, 03:52:36 PM »

I alwats thought Modern Defendo was cool...but I have heard
people say that John Kary (oh god-make him change the name)
of American Combatives teaches that material better then most.

Know about him?
Anyone?

Anyone? Beuller...
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Rawhide

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Re: Defendo CQB
« Reply #14 on: March 19, 2005, 07:57:51 AM »

I'm gonna put out a series of tapes, and on the front it's gonna say..."I don't know anybody cool, Haven't kicked anybody's ass you know, but I saw a seal once in San Fransico Bay." Wonder if it would sell?
Quote

Hey Milldog, what way you & I mmeet up in San Fran bay, catch a seal and beat up a little & sell a set of tapes claiming we beat up a seal?  Probably would have to fight off the SPCA, my wife and a boaty load of super squids!
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Milldog1776

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Re: Defendo CQB
« Reply #15 on: March 19, 2005, 09:40:42 AM »

I'm gonna put out a series of tapes, and on the front it's gonna say..."I don't know anybody cool, Haven't kicked anybody's ass you know, but I saw a seal once in San Fransico Bay." Wonder if it would sell?
Quote

Hey Milldog, what way you & I mmeet up in San Fran bay, catch a seal and beat up a little & sell a set of tapes claiming we beat up a seal?  Probably would have to fight off the SPCA, my wife and a boaty load of super squids!

I think there is a niche market out there. ;D
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gumbey

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Re: Defendo CQB
« Reply #16 on: March 19, 2005, 06:17:25 PM »

I made an attempt to take his "Defendo" seminars in my local area. Unfortunately there weren't enough participants so it was cancelled. But I did sure got my refund. I'd like to take a shot at it again next time there is another opportunity.
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Milldog1776

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Re: Defendo CQB
« Reply #17 on: June 15, 2007, 01:26:53 PM »

Gone like the wind.

Too bad really, some of their material was good meat and taters stuff.
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JimH

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Re: Defendo CQB
« Reply #18 on: December 13, 2010, 02:15:51 PM »

Better off to have the  student look at what ever Mrs Wolfe teaches now,in the Womens CQB as she supposedly kick the butts of several Coldstream Guards a year or so ago,while Bill got his butt naded to him.
LOL

Look at Bills Martial Bio and see what he actual studied and knows.
It is Hapkido.
Now Hapkido is not a Bad Art,but ,It is NOT WWII Combatives,though the Core Principles being Jujitsu are the same,the employment and usage are very different.
LOL.

Combatives  seems to sell better to the Military/ Police and special civilian group Niche that Bill wanted,more so than Hapkido does.
So Bill MADE UP his WWII Lineage /Connections and sold WWII Combatives,which was really Hapkido techniques.

Now Bill even runs a WWII Reenactment class/group and the people just keep on coming.
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