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[ExJKD]

Guys,
I hear many people claim to teach a system "so simple you can
take a big huge ape of a guy out ..even if you are out of shape
..".This is of course not a wise claim to make.But I also hear it said
by others still "In order to survive a street attack you need to
be in EXCELLENT shape" ,"be an athlete".

Well I myself see a middle ground and just shoot for adequate,
reasonable fitness level.Main reason is I won't ALWAYS be at
my maximum level of fitness and you fight like you train.Helio
Gracie DID have a point when he said "Train to fight like an
old man because one day you will be..".

And I do know SOME guys that aint in such great shape and can
be a holy terror anyway in a fight.Of course they ARE at a rather
HIGH level of profociency.

I say just reasonable shape is what is needed.

Any thoughts?

[mleone]

The one who can deal with change in combat will ultimately win but for that you need endurance.

The one who can deliver the quickest and deadliest violence will win. But for that you need speed and strength. So there are some basic needs in a fight.

You want to know more
Do more
and want more
and have more.
than your attacker

[plouffeka]

I talk to my students about the importance of general conditioning to include strength and cardio training.  Although you don't have to be at athlete levels, I think even in a quick confrontation, physical conditioning can be a big, big plus. 

First off, in a confrontation the body will select fight, flight, freeze, or faint (or a random combination); this means your body is saturated with strong bio-chemicals that target heart, lungs, muscles and so forth.  The healthier body response better to this than an out of shape one.  Strong, conditioned joints can prevent twists and sprains in the heat of the fight.  There are so many benefits to physical conditioning, both physically and mentally (some do not distinguish between the two), that I won't go on and on.

Suffice it to say that people have physical limitations, but they should condition themselves within those parameters and learn how to compensate.

The best reason was mentioned in one of Hock's CQC reports/mags (too lazy right this sec to look it up), when an article writer wondered why people spent so much time learning to defend themselves against a street attacker (low probability event) and so little time conditioning themselves against the aliments and diseases caused by poor physical fitness and nutrition (a high probability event).  Gotta do both; bottom line.

Keith

[mleone]

If your not going to be a world class body builder then you have to work with what you have!
Mainly your body! Some people are off fantasizing that they want to get Bruce Lee's speed.
Not that its not good to aim that high. But work with what you have. Our primary directive as martial artists is self defense. Some tend to forget this. Some focus more on peak performance or health issues.
Im not debasing these two points. Im simply approaching it from the mental aspect.
Working with what you have is important.

Encompass the Triangle 

The Emotional understanding of a fight- You may get punched but perhaps a punch holds more of an emotional effect on you. You may not like it and it creates a different response in others.

The Psychological aspect- Understand fear management through scenario training. Some tend to become attack specific instead of scenario specific. Approach the fight from the scenario.

The Physical- The training! The more realistic your training the more your preparedness.

Hock always says "Fortune favors the prepared" I do beleive that. No man holds all the answers but some have a great recipe for success. Hock has a delicious recipe!

[ExJKD]

. Hock has a delicious recipe!

Yes, but allows me to do my own cooking.

[Nick Hughes]

I was working with Roland Payne for the UFC III (in Charlotte NC).  Roland had a trainer but needed to know how to use the gi to his advantage if he ended up against Gracie.

I was amazed that his trainer was spending sooooo much time on physical conditioning and asked him about it.  His reply was "you might have a Porsche or a Hummer but if they don't have gas they don't go." 

I debated him at length on it.  I don't disagree with being in shape but most fights are going to be over in 30 seconds or less and adrenalin is going to play a huge role, so my take was he'd be better off devoting more time to working skills and techniques.

Bottom line...the old Canadian biker bar bouncer knocked him out cold in about the first thirty seconds.  So much for the conditioning.

Now that doesn't mean I advocate stuffing your face with donuts and walking round looking like an unmade waterbed.  I run, I lift, I do bagwork etc and stay in shape but, if your goal is self defense I think you're better off working for explosive power of extremely short duration.

[mleone]

Indeed it does!

We are all evolving and thats the good news!

[mleone]

Deliver the most amount of violence and make it changing! This is a good key!
Work with a natural response. Gross motor skills as well.

[almightymastersupreme@yah]

Training is one of the most neglected phases of athletics. Too much time is given to the development of skill and too little to the development of the individual for participation." "JKD, ultimately is not a matter of petty techniques but of highly developed spirituality and physique. The Dragon

[JimH]

If Self Defense is the Goal then one should work technique,through such work one will develop enough fitness to fight a good ,Fast,Fight.

Self Defense should not be an Aerobic event,it should be short,Fast, Burst anaerobic energy use and be done quickly.

Self Defense situations should be over in seconds,not minutes.
(though training for self defense can be made to push the envelop of time and extending it,this still does not require endurance athletes)

If one wants to engage in an exchange as in Sport then athletic conditioning and endurance is a must.
But
Endurance capacity does not mean one will win a street self defense situation.
(I can take a marathon runner beginning fighter and put him is a self defense situation and his /her heart rate will jump up and they will tire out as fast as the unfit,so endurance is not a predictor of anything)

Self Defense should be doable by Men ,Women,Children,Young to Old,Short to Tall,Fit to Fat to include those with handicaps of what ever nature.

Self Defense is not a battle of the fittest,it is a battle of those with the Superior Mind set to win and some skill against some one else who has a skill level we do not know,nor do we really care about.

My two cents.

[whitewolf]

I guess I  am a prime example of being in condition-If I did not work hard at staying in shape and able to hold my own for at least 3-4  minutes on the mat I  would be creamed every  time-I am a firm believer in endurance training-one does not have to  lok like Arnold Swartsniger-but they better be  able to hold their  own-or it will all  be  over.
Explosive type training is the way  to go. Whitewolf (ELB)

[juszczec]

Fighting is a physical thing; its an action performed by the body.  The better shape the body is in, the better it will perform this action.

I hate to do this, but to borrow a phrase from business, I feel increasing strength, endurance and flexibility is the low hanging fruit of learning how to fight.  Its the easy stuff that will help.  You might not be terribly fast or coordinated or have the best teacher/training partners - but you can do lots of stuff to improve your strength and endurance that will have a positive impact on how well you fight.

On top of that,  there's evidence all over the place saying increased fitness contributes to health and living easier.  So much that I (and I'm only speaking for myself) would have a hard time ignoring general conditioning.

On top of that, when I was in my early 20s I saw a report on the tv news show 20/20 about health/fitness.  They took a bunch of folks in an old age home and put them on an exercise program.  They pedaled  some bike pedals in a floor mounted frame  from a seated position, so its not like we had 80-90 year olds power lifting and training for marathons.  Anyway, some unbelievable percentage (maybe 60+) had enough strength gains that they were able to stop using walkers, canes and other things to assist getting around - one of the reasons many of these folks were in nursing homes (per the report) was that they were unsteady on their feet and needed help getting around.  It made quite an impression on me.

 

[grlaun]

So true.

[Wizard]

So it seems that excellent fitness (strength, endurance, explosiveness, etc.) does not necesarily win you anything in a self defense situation.  There are some pretty un-fit fellas who can pound real damage and keep going like nobody's business.

Having said that, it's clear that excellent fitness enhances one's likelihood of defending oneself, especially when combined with good technique and practice.  We train our classes and get them really tired with exercises and combatives pad drills and THEN do technique, somewhat mimicing the exhaustion that can quickly come in an altercation and requiring them to perform despite this problem.  It helps keep 'em healthy, too.

It's also clear that physical problems that can be mitigated by exercise are much bigger risks to the US than the risks of being randomly attacked.  Fitness helps survivability in life!  Finally, it's also clear that exercise is immensely useful in fighting off stress, helping sleep, and bringing balance.

So much for my summary and opinions.  Why not train one's body?

Wizard

[juszczec]

Why not train one's body?

This isn't necessarily why you shouldn't work the body, but some things to be careful of when you do.

1.  Self defense is for everyone, not just the young/aggressive and fit.  Be careful that any kind of fitness improvement part of training isn't so rough as to scare folks away.

2.  Be careful not to turn training into a fitness workout with some self defense thrown in.  There was a joke at a place I trained - seems one of the new instructors was big into body building, etc.  The first time he taught, he ran a 50 minute calisthenics workout with 10 minutes of karate thrown in as an afterthought.

3.  Keep any endurance training such that it will support short, intense bursts of activity.  Don't ignore the other kind of endurance, but being able to perform for long long periods of time ain't the goal.