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Author Topic: Vunak. Gracie Bodyguard?  (Read 4725 times)

Joe Hubbard

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Vunak. Gracie Bodyguard?
« on: December 04, 2009, 10:25:39 AM »

I just read an interesting thing on Paul Vunak’s website posted there by Tom Cruse.  It said that Vunak was hired as Helio Gracie’s bodyguard at the first UFC event.  What’s interesting to me is why would they hire the “eye jab” guy instead of just using one of their own family members or another BJJ guy to protect Helio? 

Joe
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whitewolf

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Vunak. Gracie Bodyguard?
« Reply #1 on: December 04, 2009, 11:14:20 AM »

In all probablity Paul has more experience in PSD tactics in a crowd than the family who fights in a ring with a referee. Also maybe the family wanted a outsider to be a body guard-???I never took any classes from Mr Vunack but i would imagine he has some great reflexes and can read the street so to speak..
JMHO WW (ELB) "speed of light"
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whitewolf

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Vunak. Gracie Bodyguard?
« Reply #2 on: December 04, 2009, 05:36:08 PM »

Hock you have more contacts in the martial art community than i-i dont know what paul
V does- i just thought that he would be a better choice- WW
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noload

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Vunak. Gracie Bodyguard?
« Reply #3 on: December 04, 2009, 11:38:11 PM »

I just took a look at Vunak's website and found it slathered with the phrase, "military technology". I guess he wants to be outside of all the "combatives" programs that have been springing up of late.

Quote
This is a once in a lifetime opportunity for you to learn the finest military fighting technology on the planet, the exact same hand to hand combat training developed exclusively by PFS for the U.S. Navy SEALs and over 18 government agencies.

Found this on yet another site. http://www.combatives101.com/index.php

Quote
*  Learn Brazilian Jujitsu's Best Combat Moves as used by the Army Rangers!

It brings the image of Rangers parachuting in wearing blue kimonos and taking the other side out by jumping guard.












« Last Edit: December 05, 2009, 04:11:25 PM by Hock »
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Bryan

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Vunak. Gracie Bodyguard?
« Reply #4 on: December 05, 2009, 02:32:02 AM »


Much of this is being taken out of context. Going to the ground can be a advantage or a disadvantage depending on the circumstance. I understand some people wanting to spend more time training stand up and striking but trying to justify a lack of knowledge or invalidate Jiu Jitsu is a no go.

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whitewolf

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Vunak. Gracie Bodyguard?
« Reply #5 on: December 05, 2009, 08:57:51 AM »

agree-lack of understanding a gound tactic will be a detrement to the defender when they wind up on the good old cement or dirt-WW (ELB) "Speed of light"
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noload

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Vunak. Gracie Bodyguard?
« Reply #6 on: December 05, 2009, 10:12:37 AM »

Bryan,
It's not justifying a lack of knowledge of the ground game, or to invalidate Jiujitsu as a system. It's safe to say in this day and age we all use some BJJ in our work. It's about all these sport systems, and there is nothing wrong with sport systems, suddenly sprouting the word "combatives" in their names. It's about as bad as some of the traditional guys back in the 80's claiming to teach the Green Berets.

Take a look at the introduction course to Gracie Combatives. A system that is "designed exclusively for real fights." While these fellows may be good at what they do are they also qualified and knowledgeable about the real world? What makes this a combative system and not just the basics of GJJ?
 
https://www.gracieuniversity.com/LC/RemoteLaunch.aspx?c=63QJ4TGT7X&n=28&sh=221
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whitewolf

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Vunak. Gracie Bodyguard?
« Reply #7 on: December 05, 2009, 10:28:00 AM »

The word combatives is used to sell the product- which is BJJ or grappeling in a school -
thus the unaware take the course-feel they are more knowlegable in "combat "
 i agree ground game should be taught but lets stick to reality strikes and tactics if we are instructing in "combat"

In the school where i have started instructing lots of walk ins ask for grappeling/BJJ
and are signed up -i on the other hand are having to really sell the "self protection way"
 
but ill keep on trucking- WW (ELB) "speed of light"
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Brian S

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Vunak. Gracie Bodyguard?
« Reply #8 on: December 05, 2009, 12:29:35 PM »

I've never heard of this "Bodyguard" story before.  I don't take it on face value and do  doubt its validity.

But I do believe that Vunak took lessons from the Gracies.  Doesn't he say so himself somewhere, bragging about his purple belt?

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Bryan

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Vunak. Gracie Bodyguard?
« Reply #9 on: December 05, 2009, 01:42:29 PM »

  First you need to define what a "Real Fight" even is. I have been in real fights where there was at least a feeling it was a gentleman's sport as nasty as things were. I have been in situations where thugs purposefully tried to murder me and even situations where scumbags got violent but were not very talented, their bad. A "Real Fight" means many things to different people and the Army Mission is no longer a "Take No Prisoners" style operation.
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noload

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Vunak. Gracie Bodyguard?
« Reply #10 on: December 05, 2009, 03:25:33 PM »

Design means someone intentionally did something a certain way to meet a goal, so the way I see it if it's designed exclusively for real fighting it must be following some idea of what a real fight is. Go to the section "three most common questions" of the video I linked to, these fellows have a very specific idea of what a fight is. They detail what they believe will work, what won't work and why. They also state they designed their system to go against the most common attacks. They even have a solution to the problem of multiple opponents.




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Hock

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Vunak. Gracie Bodyguard?
« Reply #11 on: December 05, 2009, 04:17:16 PM »

There is no question that Vunak was a Gracie student in the 1980s. I was there then and can vouch for that. Vunak was teaching us BJJ in about 1988. Years before the UFC. Plus the Inosanto group...we were doing Shootfighting. (Not to mention Hartsell in the 1980s)

People have to remember that ground fighting doesn't always equate with official BJJ. There was and is other groundfighting that is not BJJ.

Anyway...but the Vunak bodyguard thing?

Hock
« Last Edit: December 06, 2009, 12:05:58 AM by Hock »
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Joe Hubbard

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Vunak. Gracie Bodyguard?
« Reply #12 on: December 05, 2009, 04:52:10 PM »

I do know that Vunak was doing some bodyguarding work in the early 90s for some celebrities including Cher.  He trained with the Gracies before they had their school in Rorion's garage.  All in all he worked with Rickson and Royce for 12 years.  Later he trained with Megaton Diaz.  

Vunak has never been ranked in BJJ and according to him, he isn't interested.  He devised his whole Kina Muatai program to circumvent the BJJ game.  It actually makes sense to me that the Gracies would hire him to do close protection for their father versus another BJJ guy.  Whether the story is true or not is up in the air I guess, but seriously intersting if it actually is true.  It really begs the question why - as I said before - if the infamous Gracies hired the "eye jab" guy to protect their father rather than someone from their own system.  

Remember, it wasn't Vunak who pushed any close protection connection with the Gracies, it was Tom Cruse merely reminiscing about the evolution of PFS.  I have never heard Vunak talk about doing any CP stuff in the past through the media.  I only found out about his stint with Cher when I trained with him about 12 years ago.  He told me he hated doing CP work and it wasn't for him.  His whole focus was being a martial arts teacher and spreading the word about Dan Inosanto and Bruce Lee.

Joe
« Last Edit: December 05, 2009, 04:54:31 PM by Joe Hubbard »
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whitewolf

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Vunak. Gracie Bodyguard?
« Reply #13 on: December 05, 2009, 05:46:01 PM »

Well that makes good sense to me-as i said in all probablity he was selected for his
background (even if he did not enjoy the PSD work)

I would imagine that if he saw something going down he would attack and protect-
what do you guys think?

WW (ELB)  "speed of light"
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Bryan

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Vunak. Gracie Bodyguard?
« Reply #14 on: December 06, 2009, 01:11:10 AM »


  As far as I know the entire thing about Vunak being a paid CP Bodyguard for the Gracie Family is a myth. If anyone has any evidence he was in fact hired by them as a asset, not a guest, and not hanging out with them, please provide it.


 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YAym2ZTfuuQ
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whitewolf

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Vunak. Gracie Bodyguard?
« Reply #15 on: December 06, 2009, 01:32:17 AM »

I watched about 6 of these -did not see P.V.-saw the family and in one saw a woman with a i.d. walking behind the grop-anyhow some good vidios to study his chokes
ww (ELB) 'speed of  light"
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JimH

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Vunak. Gracie Bodyguard?
« Reply #16 on: December 06, 2009, 10:02:28 AM »

Gracie BJJ and their COMBATIVES,(LOL), is ALL about the Ground and Willingly taking the Opponent to the Ground and Fighting on the Ground.

In Combat and on the street the Ground is NOT where we Willingly want to go and be.

We want to be able to end and get up from accidentally going to the Ground through Ground Survival not Ground Fighting.

Combat and the Street Are not supposed to end in a submission ,unless you are a Police Officer or similar profession.

Look at the Gracie Combatives,which is for the street.
It is the same crap,go to the ground and get top position.
(Wow I remember Gracie BJJ always claiming it was not just sport but able to be used on the street,isn't that how they got the US Army contract,lol,wonder why they recently made a decision to claim a difference,lol)

The Gracie's learned and teach Judo,period,not jujitsu.
They are SPORT oriented.
They do not even seem able to adjust their materials,as the US Marine Corps in WWII and other US Military Branches did in the late 50's ,to Combat Judo,where basic locks breaks and crippling /Killing blows were incorporated to remove an opponent from the fight.

Combatives has become a broad term,and most of the teachings do not deal with removing the enemy from the fight any longer.
       ...
As Far as CP specialists or bodyguards to the stars go :
Most have NO CLUE as to the real job.
They are either hired because they are Big and imposing, because they are known  Martial artists or because they are Police officers with pistols.
Let's guess why P.V.was hired.lol
I know many working in the field  who are Patrol Officers with ZERO BG training,Martial artists who train and compete in sport only and ZERO BG training and then those who have training in lifting weights only.

One or two  BG's on one client ,or a group such as the Gracie Family,with no back up,no vehicle near by,nothing nearby in an emergency is just a photo op for the client and the pretend BG.

Trained BG's who know how to keep you alive are not being hired by stars as their companies will not pay the money unless the star is under threat.
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Bryan

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Re: Vunak. Gracie Bodyguard?
« Reply #17 on: December 06, 2009, 10:51:19 AM »

Gracie BJJ and their COMBATIVES,(LOL), is ALL about the Ground and Willingly taking the Opponent to the Ground and Fighting on the Ground.

In Combat and on the street the Ground is NOT where we Willingly want to go and be.

We want to be able to end and get up from accidentally going to the Ground through Ground Survival not Ground Fighting.

Combat and the Street Are not supposed to end in a submission ,unless you are a Police Officer or similar profession.

Look at the Gracie Combatives,which is for the street.
It is the same crap,go to the ground and get top position.
(Wow I remember Gracie BJJ always claiming it was not just sport but able to be used on the street,isn't that how they got the US Army contract,lol,wonder why they recently made a decision to claim a difference,lol)

The Gracie's learned and teach Judo,period,not jujitsu.
They are SPORT oriented.
They do not even seem able to adjust their materials,as the US Marine Corps in WWII and other US Military Branches did in the late 50's ,to Combat Judo,where basic locks breaks and crippling /Killing blows were incorporated to remove an opponent from the fight.

Combatives has become a broad term,and most of the teachings do not deal with removing the enemy from the fight any longer.
       ...
As Far as CP specialists or bodyguards to the stars go :
Most have NO CLUE as to the real job.
They are either hired because they are Big and imposing, because they are known  Martial artists or because they are Police officers with pistols.
Let's guess why P.V.was hired.lol
I know many working in the field  who are Patrol Officers with ZERO BG training,Martial artists who train and compete in sport only and ZERO BG training and then those who have training in lifting weights only.

One or two  BG's on one client ,or a group such as the Gracie Family,with no back up,no vehicle near by,nothing nearby in an emergency is just a photo op for the client and the pretend BG.

Trained BG's who know how to keep you alive are not being hired by stars as their companies will not pay the money unless the star is under threat.

Nice, You are the single martial artist on the net with enough knowledge to define all Gracie Jiu Jitsu and all the entire Gracie Family, each and every one of them from Rio to LA to NYC in a single post. If anything your post reinforces my opinion that you are a idiot.
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whitewolf

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Re: Vunak. Gracie Bodyguard?
« Reply #18 on: December 06, 2009, 06:50:28 PM »

Bryan- i am not taking any sides but you do make me laugh-
As far as body  guards are concerned -here are a couple of companies that provide PSD guys that know what they are doing or give excellent training
1-American Institute of executive protection-bridgewater NJ
2-The crucible-subsidiary of Kroll
3-Direct measures International, Inc-
4-Demoman International- Isreal

I could list more but that is some to look up.

ww (ELB) "speed of light"
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JimH

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Re: Vunak. Gracie Bodyguard?
« Reply #19 on: December 06, 2009, 07:58:40 PM »

Each and every Gracie that wants to CASH IN on the family name teaches the SAME CRAP.

The Gracie family learned Judo from Madea.
Helio perfected the Ground art of Judo,Newaza,because he could not handle the stand up game of Judo.
Gracie Jujitsu has NOTHING to do with the true art of Jujitsu,it is purely JUDO Ground.

Look it up the Gracie even say so on their sites.

Helio has even written that the sons live off the name and that NONE of the sons has EVER fought any where but in the ring.

Gracie combatives is the same Ground CRAP re-titled.

Look at the web site
Look at the combatives training clips.
Same stuff ,different name.

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whitewolf

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Re: Vunak. Gracie Bodyguard?
« Reply #20 on: December 06, 2009, 09:01:45 PM »

JimH-good evening -arn't u getting a little carried away? I thought we were talking about body guarding and PV.. but if  u want to -be my guest.. ;D
ww (elb) "speed of light"
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Bryan

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Re: Vunak. Gracie Bodyguard?
« Reply #21 on: December 06, 2009, 09:18:43 PM »

Each and every Gracie that wants to CASH IN on the family name teaches the SAME CRAP.

The Gracie family learned Judo from Madea.
Helio perfected the Ground art of Judo,Newaza,because he could not handle the stand up game of Judo.
Gracie Jujitsu has NOTHING to do with the true art of Jujitsu,it is purely JUDO Ground.

Look it up the Gracie even say so on their sites.

Helio has even written that the sons live off the name and that NONE of the sons has EVER fought any where but in the ring.

Gracie combatives is the same Ground CRAP re-titled.

Look at the web site
Look at the combatives training clips.
Same stuff ,different name.



  Are you trying to pass this off as more intelligent writing from  expert? I guess you could pull out your fake Korean  "Black Belt" credentials and Jim Wagner Training Certificate  to prove your a subject matter expert on Bull Shit.
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Bryan

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Re: Vunak. Gracie Bodyguard?
« Reply #22 on: December 06, 2009, 09:32:38 PM »

Bryan- i am not taking any sides but you do make me laugh-
As far as body  guards are concerned -here are a couple of companies that provide PSD guys that know what they are doing or give excellent training
1-American Institute of executive protection-bridgewater NJ
2-The crucible-subsidiary of Kroll
3-Direct measures International, Inc-
4-Demoman International- Isreal

I could list more but that is some to look up.

ww (ELB) "speed of light"

Whitewolf, No Worries from my side of the pond. Crucible is good stuff, I dont know any of the other names.
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JimH

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Re: Vunak. Gracie Bodyguard?
« Reply #23 on: December 06, 2009, 09:42:11 PM »

WW,
I believe the first post by Joe  asked why the family would have an "eye guy" over a family member.
Then Bryan,WW and No Load spoke about GBJJ and the ground game.
I then posted about GBJJ and Paul Vunak as a BG and other BG's and the uselessness of many of them.
Bryan S then inserted his usual unqualified statement and I responded.

Paul Vunak was not a BG to the Gracie's and is not a BG.
(for many reasons that some on this forum know)
Vunak was/is a Martial arts name.
Vunak was an on again off again student of GBJJ since  the mid 1980's.
Vunak saw a photo op ,as he saw the US Navy SEALs,a way to be seen .
Vunak took on the roll of ESCORT,like the handlers of fighters,they are not trainers ,nor are they BG's just escorts.
Paul and his friends want to call Paul a BG to the Gracies thats fine but he was not and is not a BG.
Paul is a name in the Martial arts,that does not make him a BG.
If you think he is a BG ,really need a BG ,and want to trust him with your life take a Big Life Inurance Policy for your families future as you will not be part of it if the crap hits the fan.
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noload

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Re: Vunak. Gracie Bodyguard?
« Reply #24 on: December 06, 2009, 10:13:56 PM »

Nice, You are the single martial artist on the net with enough knowledge to define all Gracie Jiu Jitsu and all the entire Gracie Family, each and every one of them from Rio to LA to NYC in a single post. If anything your post reinforces my opinion that you are a idiot.

Evening Bryan,
I don't believe that BJJ is crap at all, but don't the Gracies (at least Rorian's group) tend to define all other kinds of fighting and arts in ways that hides BJJs weakness? If you watch the Official Gracie Combatives video I linked you'll see and hear them nearly dismiss any other method of dealing with a situation that their system can't deal with.
For example multiple attackers: punching is dicey so the Gracie solution is to talk them into fighting one on one and after you defeat the biggest the rest will run.
BJJ is fantastic at what it's strong at, the ground game, but it is not the end all. The Gracies are fantastic at what they're strong at, teaching and marketing their art, but they are not the end all in what constitutes a combative system. I think the Gracies would be better off, and more honest, marketing their art as the "perfect" add on for stand up fighters and those looking to add to their self defense skills rather than selling what they do as a self contained combatives system.

One thing I will give Vunak over GJJ is that his approach to fighting gets the job underway quicker than the Gracie method which seems to depend on a lot of time being available and a dueling approach to fighting.

Hock,
What exactly is Vunak's background? What did he do for a living besides teaching?  Does he have any professional or amateur credentials? I've heard some stories about some bad choices in his past but I'm wondering more about where he came up from and how he got to where he is today.


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Hock

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Re: Vunak. Gracie Bodyguard?
« Reply #25 on: December 06, 2009, 11:36:33 PM »

”Hock, What exactly is Vunak's background? What did he do for a living besides teaching?  Does he have any professional or amateur credentials? I've heard some stories about some bad choices in his past but I'm wondering more about where he came up from and how he got to where he is today.”

Lifelong martial artist. (mostly Inosano related programs)
He has done nothing else for a living (legally that is) but teach this stuff.
Credentials? As in pro fights of any sort? None.

That is all I...care to say publically. I will always be indebted to Paul and PFS for breaking the karate and jujitsu mold I was captured in back in 1986. I was a PFS guy from 1986 to about 1992. And I will always like Vunak. He was/is very charismatic when at his clean best. But for several reasons, all of them good ones, I have not seen him since 1992. Vu is a tough, scrufty, athletic guy and a good fighter.

But Vu and “Vu-ism” was a springboard for me that showed me FMA, BJJ, Inosanto and a whole host of other MAs. Opened my mind. Bruce Lee talked about that but Vu showed me the way. And that sprung on from there. But without him? No springboard for me!

So, that is all I have to say about Vu personally. I mean...you know...I still like the guy and I wish him well. Good health. Good life. And sucess and happiness.

This “military technology” term is well...just bullshit. I will simply warn you that EVERYTHING (ads included) Vunak and Cruise claims and says needs to be triple-checked out. That is all I care to say.

As to why is he (and others of the 70s and 80s) are still around? I may write a generalized essay for the business section soon, or maybe the blog, on why people from the 1980s are still some kind of a name and still around to some extent.

Hock
« Last Edit: December 07, 2009, 11:04:28 AM by Hock »
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noload

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Re: Vunak. Gracie Bodyguard?
« Reply #26 on: December 07, 2009, 08:07:18 AM »

Thanks Hock, that pretty much answers what I was asking. I never studied with Vunak but I will admit that some of his tapes did change how I looked at martial arts and got me into looking at other arts besides karate. It was an eye opener to see how simple things could be, but on the other hand he seemed to complicate things after a certain point. At least for me.

Looking forward to your thoughts on the guys from the eighties. One thing I wonder about with the guys from the 70's and 80's is how much their persona and stories of dirty deeds helped promote them. One fellow that was popular and controversial in the early 80's was Michael Echanis. In some circles the guy is a legend though I've talked with a few guys who trained with him and they said he wasn't anything great, but he was incredibly dangerous. When I've been around JKD guys besides talking about Vunak's skills are the stories about the other stuff.  I've noticed that having a dark mysterious side, or appearing to, has always been one way to get credibility and/or keep a legend going after your gone. Heck, people still talk about Count Dante and he's been dead for how long?
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Bryan

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Re: Vunak. Gracie Bodyguard?
« Reply #27 on: December 07, 2009, 08:11:41 AM »


If having a dark mysterious side is important, I have that covered in spades,,,,,
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noload

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Re: Vunak. Gracie Bodyguard?
« Reply #28 on: December 07, 2009, 09:06:21 AM »

And you keeping that dark mysterious side covered makes all of us happy.  ;D
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Bryan

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Re: Vunak. Gracie Bodyguard?
« Reply #29 on: December 07, 2009, 09:28:11 AM »

And you keeping that dark mysterious side covered makes all of us happy.  ;D
;D
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