Important Links

Hock's Blog

Hock's Downloads

CQC-Facebook

Hock's Facebook

Hock's Seminars

Hock's Shopsite

Hock's Web Page


New Products

Combat Kicks VID

Critical Contact VID

Death Grip of Knife VID

Dominant/Counter VID

First Contact VID

Impact Weapons Book

Knife Book

The Other Hand VID


Lauric Enterprises, Inc.
1314 W. McDermott
Ste 106-811
Allen, TX 75013
972-390-1777

 

 

 


W. Hock Hochheim's

           Combat Centric

Talk Forum for Military, Police, Martial Artists and Aware Citizenry



Hock Hochheim's Combat Talk Forum

  • October 17, 2018, 12:06:06 AM
  • Welcome, Guest
Please login or register.

Login with username, password and session length

Author Topic: Four Section Telescopic Baton  (Read 11263 times)

markk_556

  • Forum Member
  • *
  • Posts: 8
Four Section Telescopic Baton
« on: January 03, 2010, 11:47:19 PM »

Does anyone know of a company that makes a Four section expandable baton? I haven't seen one. With a four section construction it could collapse to a smaller size which would make it easier to carry. Any thought helps
Logged

Bryan

  • Guest
Re: Four Section Telescopic Baton
« Reply #1 on: January 04, 2010, 01:30:39 AM »



  More parts also means its weaker. The three piece is pretty much a industry standard, well used, and works good. Unless Hock or somebody knows different, these ASP are still the best you can get,,,,,,

http://www.asp-net.com/bookpages/catalog_2009.html#batons
Logged

Mick Coup

  • Level 1
  • **
  • Posts: 31
  • Peasant
Re: Four Section Telescopic Baton
« Reply #2 on: January 04, 2010, 03:47:57 AM »

ASP batons lack stopping power, and this is a major flaw in an impact weapon designed to 'stop' someone!

The only expandable baton I would have any faith in is the RCB or Winchester brand:

http://www.peacekeeperproducts.com/

Mick

 

markk_556

  • Forum Member
  • *
  • Posts: 8
Re: Four Section Telescopic Baton
« Reply #3 on: January 04, 2010, 06:17:42 AM »

I appreciate the feedback guys. Does anyone know where i can find a website or something explaining the physics behind the expandable baton? Explaining things like why four sections is weaker then three sections.

A little off topic, but does anyone use the tailcap LED light attachment?
Logged

Hock

  • Administrator
  • Level 4
  • *****
  • Posts: 6324
    • www.HocksCQC.com
Re: Four Section Telescopic Baton
« Reply #4 on: January 04, 2010, 09:54:51 AM »

The math physics on that sectioning would be very hard to find. You would have to write some companies and they probably wouldn't answer, fearing new designs to compete against.

I have seen two sections break, but only in pretty hard training and I have seen three sections bend in real life.

For size, I carried the smallest length, three-section in my coat pocket as a detective for years (but big guy? Big pockets).

Hock

Canuk

  • Level 4
  • *****
  • Posts: 850
Re: Four Section Telescopic Baton
« Reply #5 on: January 04, 2010, 03:04:15 PM »

ASP batons lack stopping power, and this is a major flaw in an impact weapon designed to 'stop' someone!

The only expandable baton I would have any faith in is the RCB or Winchester brand:

http://www.peacekeeperproducts.com/

Mick

 


Nice stick, Id like to get one for my collection
Logged

Canuk

  • Level 4
  • *****
  • Posts: 850
Re: Four Section Telescopic Baton
« Reply #6 on: January 04, 2010, 03:07:06 PM »

I see stoping power as more a skill, strength, weight issues than a product issue. Also an issue of "motivation" some people cant and wont be stopped by a stick, sometimes bullets dont stop people
Logged

Mick Coup

  • Level 1
  • **
  • Posts: 31
  • Peasant
Re: Four Section Telescopic Baton
« Reply #7 on: January 04, 2010, 06:05:07 PM »

As you mention, weight is a definite factor when it comes to delivering heavy impact with a baton - and in the case of expandable batons currently available it certainly is a 'product' issue when you compare ASP to RCB.

Personally I'm no real advocate of expandable batons, and have witnessed them failing multiple times despite being used 'textbook' fashion.

As for bullets failing to stop certain individuals - I absolutely concur, but I'd rather try with a .45 as opposed to a .22 any day.

Mick
« Last Edit: January 04, 2010, 06:11:54 PM by Mick Coup »
Logged

Canuk

  • Level 4
  • *****
  • Posts: 850
Re: Four Section Telescopic Baton
« Reply #8 on: January 04, 2010, 07:04:00 PM »

Your are right there Mick! bigger is better! i like impact weapons, something primal about it i think. I have used friction locks and had the lock "break" on me many times, I have used positive locks that the pin has caught and not locked as it should, i have used auto locks and had the mechanism go tits up on me. Straight stick, side handled and rapid rotation batons, used them all including water filled rapid rotation!
Logged

markk_556

  • Forum Member
  • *
  • Posts: 8
Re: Four Section Telescopic Baton
« Reply #9 on: January 04, 2010, 11:24:20 PM »

Thank You Hock for the reality check/inspiration. Like they say though, you want it done you have to do it yourself. I really appreciate the input everyone has given, thank you.
Logged

Professor

  • In your house drinking your coffee
  • Level 4
  • *****
  • Posts: 1818
  • The Warlord
Re: Four Section Telescopic Baton
« Reply #10 on: January 09, 2010, 08:21:00 AM »

An ASP baton is the only one you want to look at.


They are THE Standard!
Logged
  'Advanced' is being able to do the basics, despite what else is happening. 

Our Country won't go on forever, if we stay soft as we are now. There won't be any AMERICA because some foreign soldiery will invade us and take our women and breed a hardier race!"  --- Chesty Puller, USMC

michael

  • Level 3
  • ****
  • Posts: 219
Re: Four Section Telescopic Baton
« Reply #11 on: January 09, 2010, 01:13:28 PM »

I like the ASP products personally, and if the bones are targeted rather than the muscles (ASP recommends the muscles for liability reasons), it makes a huge difference in effectiveness. Target the head, bones, and joints, and you have a different animal. Of course, you are also upping the ante to potentially lethal force.

The Bonowi camlock is another heavy baton that is favored by many:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g-XWFG7yvF8

http://www.bonowi.com/en/prod/ng_STOCK.htm
« Last Edit: January 09, 2010, 01:16:12 PM by michael »
Logged
**To be a warrior is not a simple matter of wishing to be one. It is rather an endless struggle that will go on to the very last moment of our lives. Nobody is born a warrior, in exactly the same way that nobody is born an average man. We make ourselves into one or the other.** Carlos Castaneda

Mick Coup

  • Level 1
  • **
  • Posts: 31
  • Peasant
Re: Four Section Telescopic Baton
« Reply #12 on: January 10, 2010, 03:42:29 AM »

An ASP baton is the only one you want to look at.


They are THE Standard!

Certainly, if you're looking for something pretty - any other reasons why you give such an absolute endorsement?

The ASP brand is perhaps the best known, and for a while did lead the market regarding expandable batons, in the same fashion as Maglite did for compact/tactical flashlights - but both have been surpassed by far superior products in recent years.  People still hang onto the ASP products out of sentimental reasons in my opinion, as this is surely the only possible excuse when the facts are examined and direct comparisons made regarding performance - though I suppose if you never use the thing and just carry it, the lighter option makes sense.

By definition a baton is an impact weapon, and therefore needs to be able to deliver this impact in abundance - often 'just enough' translates as 'not enough' when you add realistic circumstances that reduce performance dramatically.

Having a light baton that only proves effective if certain targets can be engaged is sub-optimal - like saying a .22 is fine because it's all about shot placement, when a .40 or .45  is available instead that offers so much more.  You lose nothing carrying the heavier batons, but gain plenty.

Hitting the head with the ASP, or a similar lighter product, isn't an especially effective 'stop' option in my experience, the amount of transmitted kinetic shock is fairly minimal regarding creating a KO, but local damage due the reduced contact surface area is high - resulting in extensive cutting and lots of mess.  Not getting that desired 'stop' in such a fashion tends to encourage more of the same due to the negative feedback, and ends up being a highly inefficient method of putting someone down, but a great way to spill a lot of blood.

Mick



WTAC

  • Aaron Warren
  • Level 2
  • ***
  • Posts: 84
    • WTAC Training
Re: Four Section Telescopic Baton
« Reply #13 on: January 17, 2010, 05:00:40 PM »

Generating power with an ASP is mainly technique. The power generates similar to a whip snapping. Just swinging it with strength wont get you the results you need. ASP batons are the gold mark of expandable impact weapons. Stay away from the weighted tipped batons thats a gimick, just learn to use an ASP properly.
A Warren

I see stoping power as more a skill, strength, weight issues than a product issue. Also an issue of "motivation" some people cant and wont be stopped by a stick, sometimes bullets dont stop people
Logged

Mick Coup

  • Level 1
  • **
  • Posts: 31
  • Peasant
Re: Four Section Telescopic Baton
« Reply #14 on: January 18, 2010, 03:36:40 AM »

Generating impact with anything is mainly technique - but all the more effective if you have more mass at hand.

Once upon a time ASP were without doubt the 'gold standard' and I rushed to obtain several of their innovative and well made products myself, carried, trained and used them extensively - recommended them to others even.

The issue of stopping power always came up with the ASP batons, and the versions made by other manufacturers that followed the same dimensins and specification.  Whilst many people slugged it out over friction vs positive lock, all that concerned me was would the baton put someone down?  Could I generate more usable force using my shin or arm?  The answers steered me away from carrying such items altogether, since all I was getting was extended range - something that usually isn't required in a contact fight.

Something like an ASP will certainly snap a clavicle, or fracture an elbow - if you place the blow 'just so' and avoid any protective muscle mass.  So will something like an RCB though, and a whole lot more - nothing is lost, barring some sentimental attachment it would appear, by switching to the more effective design.

The whole ASP argument seems to hinge upon accepting that they don't hit as hard - which they certainly don't, not by any stretch of the imagination - but that they hit 'hard enough' if you know how to use them.  This 'enough' power oftens turns out to be 'not enough' when you try it for real, with 'more than enough' becoming 'just enough' by the same token.  I know which I prefer.

As for learning how to use one properly - same applies to firearms surely?  Don't worry about the poor terminal ballistics of a .22, just learn to put it in the eye socket, or left ventricle instead - those heavier calibres are just a gimmick...

Mick

Canuk

  • Level 4
  • *****
  • Posts: 850
Re: Four Section Telescopic Baton
« Reply #15 on: January 19, 2010, 08:06:31 AM »

Generating power with an ASP is mainly technique. The power generates similar to a whip snapping. Just swinging it with strength wont get you the results you need. ASP batons are the gold mark of expandable impact weapons. Stay away from the weighted tipped batons thats a gimick, just learn to use an ASP properly.
A Warren

I see stoping power as more a skill, strength, weight issues than a product issue. Also an issue of "motivation" some people cant and wont be stopped by a stick, sometimes bullets dont stop people

Thanks for the info, you must be a company man! "just learn to use an ASP properly" by this you mean use the company's training programand dont question anything?

And stay away from weighted tips because they are a gimmick? hmmmm better rush out and tell all the golf players, basball players and any sport that uses weighted tips that they are wrong, its just a gimmick, gotta use the skinny end!

Please
Logged

Professor

  • In your house drinking your coffee
  • Level 4
  • *****
  • Posts: 1818
  • The Warlord
Re: Four Section Telescopic Baton
« Reply #16 on: January 27, 2010, 02:28:02 PM »

An ASP baton is the only one you want to look at.


They are THE Standard!

Certainly, if you're looking for something pretty - any other reasons why you give such an absolute endorsement?




I have not been able to destroy mine.   I've used it HARD on a lot of different things over the years and it's still ticking.   Therefore, I endorse.
Logged
  'Advanced' is being able to do the basics, despite what else is happening. 

Our Country won't go on forever, if we stay soft as we are now. There won't be any AMERICA because some foreign soldiery will invade us and take our women and breed a hardier race!"  --- Chesty Puller, USMC

whitewolf

  • Level 4
  • *****
  • Posts: 4680
Re: Four Section Telescopic Baton
« Reply #17 on: February 02, 2010, 06:23:25 AM »

Mick=morning from Tn. USA-good response-especially concerning the 22 cal. i always tthought the same.

I have collapsable baton made in England-it has a rubber grip -no lock- and comes out fast-failry heavy-when i carry it i have it in the middle of my back or in a side pocket-
i practise using it against a wrist =elbow-stabbing face-or accross the face aimimg for the side of the face area- no aimimg for side of upper arm or accross chest areas

I would like to see more rsponses from you if possible as you stay on subject and your comments always make sense-
WW
Logged

Canuk

  • Level 4
  • *****
  • Posts: 850
Re: Four Section Telescopic Baton
« Reply #18 on: February 02, 2010, 07:48:09 AM »

WW, I dont carry anything at on or close to my back that could hurt me if i get pushed over or fall, its also limits my ability to draw the thing and also may damage it so it cant be used
Logged
 

Download