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Author Topic: Changes in Kenpo  (Read 6544 times)

JimH

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Changes in Kenpo
« on: January 17, 2010, 09:06:11 PM »

Last weekend I was at an Awards  and Expo where many of the martial arts legends were and many gave seminars.

One that I found Interesting was a Talk and Demo by Jeff Speakman.
Jeff was saying that with the rise of MMA his branch of Kenpo went back to the drawing board and tried to find methods to counter an MMA fighter.
He said that they had about 150 techniques  from white to Black Belt.
They did not want to add to the amount of skills,they wanted to refine the skills  in the system.
They threw out 33 percent of the materials they had in the system and then created  50 skills/techniques to counter MMA fighters specific.

He said rather than adopt MMA tactics they wanted to test and refine their base art to fit the need of countering MMA.
The new techniques are spread throughout the system so one cannot just get these new techniques in a single or double DVD.
One would need to buy the whole system  to get the complete 50 changes.

We worked on one technique,which Jeff said was a basic move ,from stand up to ground and application of strikes and chokes through the transition and it had A LOT of individual movements.
slap block against the left jab
Block grab second punch,a cross
Return the punch over the grabbed arm
slide to an elbow attack to arm bar
reach under the arm with your left hand grab cross shoulder,opponents left shoulder, near neck
Right arm slides up,bringing the attackers  right arm up
slide the opponents arm towards neck  while your right arm grabs the opponents right shoulder near neck,now you have an X pattern choke to the front with the opponents arm in the center,their shoulder also putting pressure on their own neck and complete the choke to both arteries
then your right hand grabs the wrist of the opponents right arm and brings the arm around the neck from the rear using the opponents own arm to complete the choke as we drop them to the ground
we now go to ground also and continue the choke from the ground
then we ran out of time,and still had not completed the one technique,after 30-40 minutes of work.
( I am sure my explanation is confusing,many doing the training found it confusing)

I thought it was interesting and I applaud the testing of what they do and the fact they found useful techniques,but to me it was complicated and way too many movements as the first basic new skill.

If the skills were on a single DVD it may have been of interest
but 300 dollars to find these changes in the entire system is for Kenpo stylists in his Branch of Kenpo ,rather than for the consumption of the general ,martial art,public.
My Opinion.

I enjoyed meeting ,talking to and training with Mr Speakman
He is an excellent instructor in breaking the moves down to the basic components.
He is a truly nice person and very down to earth while being a celebrity.

His new version of his kenpo is called
Kenpo 5.0
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whitewolf

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Re: Changes in Kenpo
« Reply #1 on: January 17, 2010, 09:27:46 PM »

JimH-wow-i tried walking through this and it is to exacting-one would have to do it with a opponent (trainee) who resists to see if it does work-under the conditions of stress many tactics fall by the way side-but glad that they are looking for another way to resist and over come MMA tactics-
I would say though KISS would be the way to go.

When I am working with a student I tell them to go with what ever they can i.e. a
block to a strike-sometimes they block from outside-sometimes from the inner side of the striking arm-same block but different angle

This week I hope to do some rolling with a MMA guy-ill ask him to try something different than he has been doing and see how it comes out.

JimH-please send some more info like this-good to see what is going on out the
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whitewolf

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Re: Changes in Kenpo
« Reply #2 on: January 17, 2010, 09:30:25 PM »

oops-hit the wrong button- forgot to finish the sentance-anyway i said keep on sending
information like this -very interesting
WW (ELB) "speed of light"
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redfive

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Re: Changes in Kenpo
« Reply #3 on: January 17, 2010, 09:41:26 PM »

Jeff is a really good guy. He used to come to dallas. He was hosted by Rick Fowler in the past. Both of them have top notch kempo/kenpo skills. I just dont see why you would change things up like that. The art should have naturally evolved.  Standing kneeling and on the ground. If I  had years and years of a art and found it didnt work against something, I would study that something and add it to what I already new. Unless your going up against trained mma guys how would you know if it worked or not. Sounds more like kempo guess work. And there is the money thing to. New system addatives means more money in dvds. Kempo worked great  in the first couple of ufc event. a Guy named Kieth H. was kicking ass with it, but I think it was Gracee who locked him up finally . Thats when I would have changed things. lv always liked kempo though.

                                                                   Redfive

  
« Last Edit: January 17, 2010, 09:44:12 PM by redfive »
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JimH

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Re: Changes in Kenpo
« Reply #4 on: January 18, 2010, 06:37:26 PM »

Redfive,
Yes I remember watching the first UFC bouts and when Keith Hackney dropped Manny Yarborough with the ridge hand to the forehead,it was interesting and surprising.
Then we saw where the Height and Weight issue enters the equation ,as Manny could take some punishment and just keep on going.
In the end the bout was Keith's but man I think he hurt himself striking Manny so many times before  the ref waved Keith off.

I like Kenpo the techniques and the continuous attack to finish the opponent.

The technique Jeff demonstrated,as said ,was to be against an MMA fighter
but the entry was two opponents squared off,at puching distance ,the MMA fighter in a boxing stance and attacking with a left jab and a right cross combo.(more like a traditional boxer,so why the change for that I do not know).

To me
Most MMA fighters that come from across the ring start with kicks,close the gap,maybe hand strikes or most time an attempt at the legs,by what ever mean,leg grab,shoot what ever.

Unless I was planning on trying to enter a straight up Kenpo fighter into an MMA event,I would not have changed 33 percent of my ciriculum.
My opinion.

I did only see and work on the first technique and only one of the 50 changes to engage an MMA fighter,so I DO NOT know what the rest of the 50 techniques are and how they are employed ,nor the openings into further engagement.
I expect they will engage the kicks to enter,the leg grabs and the shoot,to the ground.

I am not criticing, the work that Mr Speekman and his people put in on the entire revised program or other 49 techniques/replies to engage an MMA fighter.
Just letting people know of an interesting change in Kenpo,at least from Mr Speakman's line.
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shastana

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Re: Changes in Kenpo
« Reply #5 on: January 18, 2010, 08:33:18 PM »

Jim H-sounds like quite an opportunity, Speakman is smooth and well trained. 

About the mods-there can only be two outcomes-1-kempo grows and maintains its primary self defense/protection training intact; or 2-become a MMA countering system.  Hopefully they maintain because the kempo program I was in was all about self defense dealing with common street attacks, not the well trained MMA criminal...I think if they also keep in mind that kempo has been around and forged in the back alleys of anytown USA, and improve that program first, they will have a better understanding of how to put the MMA countering program in there too.  Either way, kempo may need a face lift because of the MMA marketing, in order to stay afloat, but they should remember their self defense training is more applicable for the average small man or woman against a criminal, than MMA countering.

WW-you said it about response to real world.  One thing about kempo that I got was that its primary mindset is to overwhelm with 10 strikes, maybe one or two lands where they were supposed to.  The kempo techs are just loaded with chainsaw repetition strikes...ol Master Parker said, like wings of a hummingbird, the attack is fast and relentless to vital targets.  So what I am taking home about Speakman's technique, is that he was giving you the strategy...flow from one offensive to next...finding the holes and counter-striking opponents strikes.  That was Al & Jim Tracy Kempo philosophy as well...You get pretty darned tired quick doing this, but if you get a couple good shots in at first, you get some wiggle room to improve your situation.  Just like any system, there is always 'a kempo moment' in self defense.

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grlaun

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Re: Changes in Kenpo
« Reply #6 on: January 18, 2010, 09:02:34 PM »

It comes down to who are you going to face in a real fight?  The average goon will have SOME skills in grappling but they will not be refined so, yes, a grappling segment of material should be adopted.  But change a whole system to defeat a minuscule amount of highly skilled fighters?  Whatever... watch YouTube and see what real fights look like.
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whitewolf

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Re: Changes in Kenpo
« Reply #7 on: January 19, 2010, 06:21:06 AM »

to add to this-what really occurs in a street fight is the mind set that the other guy has-if he is the kind of person who will kill you without hesitation then you better train to over power him/her asap-no fancy set of moves- get in hurt,cripple, finish it-
the vidios of police officers on traffic stops that get into a confortation with the the
person stopped show that this maniac once starting to fight HAS to be put down-using what has been taught to the PO-otherwise he will wind up on the hurt end.
This goes for security/store detectives/hospital security etc etc...i am 100 per cent in favor of training in vaqrious styles-its all good-BUT-dont forget to go for realisim.
ww (elb) "speed of light"
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JimH

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Re: Changes in Kenpo
« Reply #8 on: January 19, 2010, 04:02:30 PM »

Shastana,
I agree with you and the fact that it has two options/ways to proceed.
Of the choices,become counter MMA or remain street usable, I would also keep it as the Art/System it is meant to be ab d keep it Street Usable.


Grlaun,
I agree,we should prepare for those we expect to encounter and most will NOT be MMA specialists.A knowledge of the ground is good but to change 33 Percent/50 techniques of your system for it is  a bit much for me.Then again I am not Mr Speakman ,his group or know all the changes and the why's of what was left in and what was removed.

WW,
I agree with the following 100%

"if he is the kind of person who will kill you without hesitation then you better train to over power him/her asap-no fancy set of moves- get in hurt,cripple, finish it"

I apply this thinking to all encounters,if it looks bad flip the switch and go at it 100% and end it quickly.
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whitewolf

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Re: Changes in Kenpo
« Reply #9 on: January 19, 2010, 06:34:37 PM »

Right-JimH-what is  interesting is that the more one studies CQC tactics the more one reolizes that we dont know as much as we think we do.
WW
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Dawg

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Re: Changes in Kenpo
« Reply #10 on: January 20, 2010, 08:50:00 PM »

Right-JimH-what is  interesting is that the more one studies CQC tactics the more one reolizes that we dont know as much as we think we do.
WW

And yet...the more I study, the more things seem to be the same.
So many of the CQC techniques I practice remind me of this or that I've already practiced from other more traditional systems. Good stuff is good stuff; and many systems have some good stuff in them. Just depends on your perspective, I guess.

As far as Mr. Speakman is concerned, I've always enjoyed his material and his movies. Although I've never met him, I did get to train with one of his students for awhile and really enjoyed the experience (Tank, remember Big J?). That was about two years ago, and I think there was an article about Kempo 5.0 in Black Belt magazine at about the same time. IIRC, Big J was pretty excited about the whole thing.

Whatever his reasons for making the changes, I wish him nothing but success in his endeavors. Maybe I'll get to cross paths with Big J or another one of Mr. Speakmans students some day and get to see what's up. It's a small world.   

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rutleddc

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Re: Changes in Kenpo
« Reply #11 on: January 24, 2010, 03:58:22 PM »

I started our with Ed Parker's Kenpo back in 1980, and it has been my base style for everything else I have done. I like the "all in" mindset of the system, as being 5'6" with limited athletic ability I consider every fight an unfair one by definition, so anything goes to end it quickly and definitively. Raw aggression is an underrated attribute in some situations IMHO!

My biggest complaint, which caused me to do other things at times, is the excessive complexity in the system. How many different hand techniques do you need? I was afraid I would be halfway between two different fists and strike someone, breaking my hand. Or worse, having to many choices and having my brain freeze up at the wrong moment.
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whitewolf

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Re: Changes in Kenpo
« Reply #12 on: January 24, 2010, 11:10:27 PM »

Rut-evening from tn-i agree- kenpo is as good a art as any except the more movements taught to complete the tactic leaves one open for counter attack-hope that makes sense. WW
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rutleddc

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Re: Changes in Kenpo
« Reply #13 on: January 25, 2010, 07:04:34 AM »

Whitewolf,

I agree - I prefer simpler approaches to complex ones. Especially since great coordination is not one of my gifts.
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JimH

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Re: Changes in Kenpo
« Reply #14 on: January 25, 2010, 07:43:02 AM »

The use of the multiple/over kill techniques taught in Kenpo is to make the student/practitioner fight on until the opponent /enemy is down and out of the fight.
That can be in a single strike or many strikes.
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whitewolf

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Re: Changes in Kenpo
« Reply #15 on: January 25, 2010, 06:33:33 PM »

JimH- what i said is : the more moves to complete the basic tactic might confuse or be too much during a altercation-i know kempo is a good art-i was just saying  KISS is the way to go. WW
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JimH

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Re: Changes in Kenpo
« Reply #16 on: January 26, 2010, 10:13:29 AM »

WW,
I agree with you that KISS is always the best way,especially to those who train like we do.
That was part of my point when posting the single technique that was worked on for over 30 minutes with Jeff Speakman.
To those in Kenpo and many other arts ,like the video clips of the Saunces Ryu practioners ,overkill is the way they train.

I was explaining,why they do it for those who do not know about Kenpo or why Kenpo uses Overkill/so many techniques or "all in ",as mentioned by you,rutleddc and myself.
(everyone reading does not know the various arts and when terms like Overkill are used it may be misleading if not put in context)
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whitewolf

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Re: Changes in Kenpo
« Reply #17 on: January 26, 2010, 08:34:16 PM »

jimh-gotya-WW
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ghostrider

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Re: Changes in Kenpo
« Reply #18 on: January 28, 2010, 08:32:11 PM »

I find the changes that Mr. Speakman has come up with not too bad though. He is keeping up with the commercial side of the martial arts. It is after all first and foremost about the money, a way of making a living at what he does best. Couldn't blame him for that at all. If you look at the history of Parker Kenpo in the early 60's it was a very basic method...with just 30 techniques and forms (short 1, long 1, short 2, long 2 and short 3). Essentially the basic techniques teach a person the theories, concepts and principles used in understanding how to use Kenpo on the street. Mr. Parker had a background in boxing and judo, besides being a streetfighter. Living in Hawaii, especially Oahu had some pretty hard back alley street fights there. I visited Oahu back in 1999. Chinatown after dark was pretty scary especially if you were a white guy.  But according to Chuck Sullivan, one of Parker's original Black belts, that when most of Parker's students made black belt they all left because they were wanting more material than Mr. Parker had at that time. So with that, and it being a business, Mr. Parker began to create more techniques for his students. So it goes.

Kenpo has been guilty of having too many techniques in it. 200-plus, as well as, all the forms, set, and so forth. Actually for a student to make Black belt it would take them at least 10 years, working 8 to 10 hours a day just to truly cover the material properly. I myself have been involved with the Parker system since 1995 while under the teaching of Tim Bulot, a Black belt under Larry Tatum.
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